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Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

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Is racism a problem in the USA?

 
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby Neoteny on Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:28 pm

patches70 wrote:What you fail to understand, being from Finland, is that in the US racism is big business. There are individuals and groups who make their living convincing everyone else that racism is a serious problem. These people are as much to facilitating racism as the KKK did. If racism were to ever be eradicated then those groups would no longer exist or those individuals no longer able to gain influence.

What you fail to understand, being from Finland, is that most Americans understand what VOL was saying where you cannot understand. Where are the stats you look up for all the bogus and ridiculous claims of racism made? Where are the stats for the number of Americans who are sick of being told they are racist when it isn't so black and white (pardon the pun) as that?

A black senator gets investigated for corruption and makes the claim they are a victim of racism. ORLY?
The black firefighter applicants of a certain Newark fire department can't pass the test to get a job with the department and the test results are thrown out because they were obviously racist. In effect the Newark fire department said they'll take people to be fire fighters that are not the absolute best possible candidates. Doesn't matter that those less qualified soon to be fire fighters will be the very ones who might have to come save your ass in a fire or that will be watching the back of their fellow fire fighters. I guess standards should be lowered in that case, eh?

The education system that you claim is racist is the same for all the schools. Why is it that the black students who sit in class right along with the white students don't do as well? Racism? Really? There might not be some other explanation?

There are glaring holes in your view of the statistics as well, though you refuse to consider them. As you've ignored TGD's post completely. Why is that?

Are you selectively deciding what is and isn't evidence? Did you not dismiss another poster's anecdote though you provide an anecdote of your own and consider it valid? You know, that letter from what's his name. That's an anecdote. "Oh but it was in the newspaper!" It's still an anecdote.

The one fact there is, is that you don't understand VOL because you are not American or are privy to the subtle ways of American culture. Just as I am not privy to the subtle ways of Finnish culture. Since you are missing the finer points your conclusions are invalid because you don't have don't have enough information. Good luck you admitting that though.


Since you are obviously not a black person or a racist, you cannot understand the finer points of racism. It's ok though, keep talking that racist shit and maybe you will understand someday.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:11 pm

Let me make sure I get one thing straight (well two things):

(1 - the less important) - I'm not sure why Natty is not responding to my posts. Maybe he has me on foe or something.

(2 - the more important) - I did not post those statistics to say there is a basis for racism, so don't use them for your pro-racism agenda. I was responding merely to Natty's post of the black New Yorker who decided that the NYPD "harrass" him because of his race and not for some other reason.

I think patches is getting the closest to the reasons why intelligent, non-racist Americans are fed up with the constant playing of the race card by African Americans and others. I think Woodruff is pretty much right on the money as well. Is there racism in the United States? Yes. Is it a problem? Yes because racism is always a problem, no matter the number of racists. Is it as pervasive a problem as some would have use believe? Absolutely not.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby Neoteny on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:19 pm

Greek, what do you feel is the reason behind the wealth disparity between whites and blacks?
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:30 pm

Neoteny wrote:Greek, what do you feel is the reason behind the wealth disparity between whites and blacks?


Are you sure there's a wealth disparity? There are a lot of poor white people.

Statistics from 2010 (impoverished as a percentage by race):

- 27.4% of blacks (out of 38,901,938 or 11 million)
- 26.6% of Hispanics (out of 53,325,522 or 13 million)
- 9.9% of whites (out of 199,670,908 or 19 million)
- 12.1% of Asians (out fo 14,819,786 or 2 million)

So, there are more white people that are poor than blacks.

Your next question will be why is there a higher percentage of poor African Americans than poor white Americans. I don't know the answer. I think the answer has to do with failing public schools in cities (where a higher percentage of African Americans live) and the disintegration of two parent families.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:33 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.


Do you have evidence for this statement?


I'm still waiting to hear the evidence for this statement.


still waiting for you to say why you deleted my evidence

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby Neoteny on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:41 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Your next question will be why is there a higher percentage of poor African Americans than poor white Americans. I don't know the answer. I think the answer has to do with failing public schools in cities (where a higher percentage of African Americans live) and the disintegration of two parent families.


Indeed, you did well, but why did you stop predicting?

I agree our education system is crap. Would your proposed education reform include more spending on education or less?

Do black families disintigrate more than white families?

I think I'm almost done with the lazy questions, so bear with me.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:51 pm

Neoteny wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Your next question will be why is there a higher percentage of poor African Americans than poor white Americans. I don't know the answer. I think the answer has to do with failing public schools in cities (where a higher percentage of African Americans live) and the disintegration of two parent families.


Indeed, you did well, but why did you stop predicting?

I agree our education system is crap. Would your proposed education reform include more spending on education or less?

Do black families disintigrate more than white families?

I think I'm almost done with the lazy questions, so bear with me.


Opinions based only on my personal experience: These days, I don't believe that black families disintegrate more than white families, though that absolutely was true for a very long time. Unfortunately, due to that long-term "acceptance" of familial disintegration among blacks (which is happening in white and Hispanic families to a much larger degree now, as well) as well as a tendency to presume the worst for their future, there is among a fair percentage of blacks an "anti-educational culture". Amazingly to me, it is even some black parents that are advocating that education itself is not a worthwhile pursuit in any fashion, never mind the youth who are perpetuating it amongst themselves through peer pressure. Now, this certainly isn't an all-inclusive thing, but it tends to take either comfortably-well-off or well-educated parents of black children to seem to be able to CONSISTENTLY break this pattern with their children. I haven't seen this problem to even close to the same extent among whites, Hispanics, Asians, whatever, regardless of economic standing. I don't really know WHY it's happening (though I espoused my guess above), but it's one of the most frustrating things I have to deal with as a teacher (especially when it's coming from a parent).
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby patches70 on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Your next question will be why is there a higher percentage of poor African Americans than poor white Americans. I don't know the answer. I think the answer has to do with failing public schools in cities (where a higher percentage of African Americans live) and the disintegration of two parent families.



The disintegration of the two parent family cannot be ignored. There is a difference between income and wealth. Those with wealth use that wealth to get more. Those relying solely on income buy depreciating assets. One way to get a good chunk of money to build wealth is through inheritance. Two parent families tend to build more wealth and thus leave it to the children. Single parent families have a tough enough time making ends meet to even think about providing for the children later.

It's choices people make along with inflation, tax policy, monetary policy and other conditions that can't be ignored and just blame it all on racism. Inflation is the real killer for low income households, black or white. Inflation doesn't discriminate at all.

Thomas Sowell who is smarter than anyone on this forum talks about fallacies of race. He specifically speaks about the income disparity between black and white at 2:39. The point is that racism is a red herring. It's too subjective, not able to be quantified.
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Using race and class warfare is a political tool used by corrupt politicians how pander to those who believe anything told to them so long as it fits into their view of the world. Regardless if that view has any real basis in reality.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby john9blue on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:28 pm

natty_dread wrote:People can be sorted into all kinds of categories. You can sort people into right-handed or left-handed people. You can sort people by hair colour, or favorite sex position, or the hairiness of their arse.

But when you start claiming that hairy-arsed people are a distinct biological group from smooth-arsed people, even going as far to make predictions about their behaviour based on the hairiness of their arses, then you're way off base. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Of course, try telling that to anti-arsehair-people who can't get over their prejudices about hairy-arsed people, and jump at any anecdotal thing they can use to rationalize their prejudices...


they ARE a distinct biological group, lol. just because hairiness doesn't impact behavior in any meaningful way doesn't mean that it's not a genetic, biological trait.

gender and sexual preference, for example, are biological traits that are reliable indicators of behavior. race isn't as reliable an indicator as those, but it's wrong to discard the possibility that it has any influence at all.

thegreekdog wrote:Is it a problem? Yes because racism is always a problem, no matter the number of racists.


what is your definition of racism and what makes it "always a problem"? that seems like a remarkably closed-minded stance to take.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:31 pm

Neoteny wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Your next question will be why is there a higher percentage of poor African Americans than poor white Americans. I don't know the answer. I think the answer has to do with failing public schools in cities (where a higher percentage of African Americans live) and the disintegration of two parent families.


Indeed, you did well, but why did you stop predicting?

I agree our education system is crap. Would your proposed education reform include more spending on education or less?

Do black families disintigrate more than white families?

I think I'm almost done with the lazy questions, so bear with me.


I don't like this - I'm usually the one asking questions I already know the answer to.

(1) My proposed education reform may include different spending on education, I'm not sure if it would be increased. On a purely idealist level, I would propose an education plan that eliminates all teachers unions and forces teachers to be classified as professionals. Apart from that I haven't really thought about it much. I think our education system is not necessarily shit (we spend the most per student by far)... I think parental guidance is shit (which is why I talked about two parent families).

(2) I don't know if black families disintegrate more than white families. I suspect there are statistics on this. In any event, there are a lot of reasons why family disintegration (and I might even say, two parent homes where both parents "have" to work) have harmed children. And I think that gets to another problem - the cause of poverty. Why can't a two family home where one person works as a welder and the other stays at home to raise the kids succeed anymore? Is it because our definition of success has changed? Is it because necessities cost more? Is it because we have redefined necessities to include things like cellular phones, flat screen televisions, and personal computers? And lest anyone think otherwise, I'm not suggesting that the woman must stay home.

I'm all over the place now and I can't begin to solve the economic woes of our society in a post on the internet from a guy who barely escaped college with a 3.0 and majored in history. I will say this - President Obama said something in his State of the Union yesterday that was awesome - he wants to make unemployment benefits include reeducation benefits (or retraining benefits). In other words, if you're on unemployment, you can go to school for some reduced cost to learn something new so you can get a job. That, I thought, was a good idea.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:33 pm

john9blue wrote:what is your definition of racism and what makes it "always a problem"? that seems like a remarkably closed-minded stance to take.


My definition is above - treating someone differently because of their race. Differently is the key word (not worse, not better, differently). It is always a problem because treating someone differently because of their race is unamerican.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby john9blue on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:38 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
My definition is above - treating someone differently because of their race. Differently is the key word (not worse, not better, differently). It is always a problem because treating someone differently because of their race is unamerican.


i'm honestly not sure if you're trolling me.

"unamerican" means it's wrong? i didn't think you subscribed to american exceptionalism.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:59 pm

john9blue wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
My definition is above - treating someone differently because of their race. Differently is the key word (not worse, not better, differently). It is always a problem because treating someone differently because of their race is unamerican.


i'm honestly not sure if you're trolling me.

"unamerican" means it's wrong? i didn't think you subscribed to american exceptionalism.


I'm not trolling you, but maybe I'm subscribing to American exceptionalism. I believe that everyone in the United States should have equal opportunities, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, etc.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:11 pm

Neoteny wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Your next question will be why is there a higher percentage of poor African Americans than poor white Americans. I don't know the answer. I think the answer has to do with failing public schools in cities (where a higher percentage of African Americans live) and the disintegration of two parent families.


Indeed, you did well, but why did you stop predicting?

I agree our education system is crap. Would your proposed education reform include more spending on education or less?


If the end result is crap, and if you put more money into the production process, would more crap come out?
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby john9blue on Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:14 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
john9blue wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
My definition is above - treating someone differently because of their race. Differently is the key word (not worse, not better, differently). It is always a problem because treating someone differently because of their race is unamerican.


i'm honestly not sure if you're trolling me.

"unamerican" means it's wrong? i didn't think you subscribed to american exceptionalism.


I'm not trolling you, but maybe I'm subscribing to American exceptionalism. I believe that everyone in the United States should have equal opportunities, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, etc.


on a governmental/institutional level, yes, everyone should be treated the same. but individuals should be free to form their own opinions and attitudes about race/gender/ass-hairiness/whatever the hell they want, based on science or anything else that they want to believe.

also, as a side note, when you say "have equal opportunities", do you believe these opportunities should be "created" or do you just believe that no opportunities should be "taken away"?
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:52 pm

john9blue wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
john9blue wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
My definition is above - treating someone differently because of their race. Differently is the key word (not worse, not better, differently). It is always a problem because treating someone differently because of their race is unamerican.


i'm honestly not sure if you're trolling me.

"unamerican" means it's wrong? i didn't think you subscribed to american exceptionalism.


I'm not trolling you, but maybe I'm subscribing to American exceptionalism. I believe that everyone in the United States should have equal opportunities, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, etc.


on a governmental/institutional level, yes, everyone should be treated the same. but individuals should be free to form their own opinions and attitudes about race/gender/ass-hairiness/whatever the hell they want, based on science or anything else that they want to believe.

also, as a side note, when you say "have equal opportunities", do you believe these opportunities should be "created" or do you just believe that no opportunities should be "taken away"?


Individuals should be free to form their own opinions and attitudes about individuals, not about races. There is nothing inherently similar for all individuals in one race. If I presented you with two African American individuals, you would not be able to tell me that they are similar in some way simply because of their race. And if you do, why that is racism (whether you're making a positive statement or a negative statement).

I believe that no opportunities should be taken away and I believe that the bar should be set at the same level - no discrimination based on race. Creating opportunities based upon race is also racism. Which, again, is why my definition of racism is treating someone "differently" rather than "worse."
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby whitestazn88 on Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:54 pm

ITT I get bored again of ppl circularly arguing with each other.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby natty dread on Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:47 am

OMG so many racists.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:32 am

natty_dread wrote:OMG so many racists.


I take it you mean in this thread and not life in general. If you mean in this thread, then are are you counting yourself as one of the racists? What criteria did you use to come to your conclusion?
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby natty dread on Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:51 am

Anyone who downplays the harmful effects of racism is a racist.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:34 am

Unnamed Person wrote:Anyone who downplays the harmful effects of racism is a racist.


That's an especially liberal definition of racism. But using that criteria, I would have to say that anyone that denies that affirmative action has caused reverse racism is very racist then.
Last edited by ViperOverLord on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:43 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
john9blue wrote:what if there was a scientific study published tomorrow which showed that one race was (on average) taller than another? or smarter than another? or stronger than another?

would that be "just in my imagination"?


So you identify yourself as the racist in the scenario of my last post? Interesting.

As for your question, that would depend on the methodology of the study, ie. how well the study was conducted. A study can get published relatively easily. Whether the science contained in a study is sound is another matter entirely.

However, scientifically speaking, the whole concept of "race" is meaningless. There are no clear boundaries in humans between different "races". We're all the same species, we only group each other according to "race" because we fear everything that we perceive to be "different" from us, and thus want to label the others as another group of people.

In short, racial differences only exist in the imagination of the racist.


So anyone who dedicates their life toward understanding and explaining racism is a racist?



Did anyone else find natty's condition for being a racist odd?
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby natty dread on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:58 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
Unnamed Person wrote:Anyone who downplays the harmful effects of racism is a racist.


That's an especially liberal definition of racism. But using that criteria, I would have to say that anyone that denies that affirmative action has caused reverse racism is very racist then.


No, and it's racist of you to say that. You're not a racist, are you?

The whole argument about "reverse racism" is pointless, and is just another way for racists to justify and rationalize their prejudice. If there was no racism against blacks in the first place, and the situation regarding white and black people was equal, then yes, affirmative action would be racist against white people. But since the situation is that black people are discriminated against, any attempt to reduce that discrimination by leveling the playing field is simply a way of combating that discrimination.

It's kind of like when racists rave on about how "if you guys are all about tolerance, then you should be tolerant to our intolerance!" It's another "supposedly clever" thing to say that doesn't make any sense in closer scrutiny.

What you're in fact saying is that you, as a white person, are entitled of being in a superior position to black people, and any attempt to remove that privilege from you counts as discrimination towards you. That in itself is a very racist position to take, since it implicitly supports racism and enables racial discrimination to continue.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:14 am

Are black fraternities racist if they desire to have only black members because they wish to uphold a common culture within their group?


For me, if such a fraternity does it, it's completely acceptable, as long as they're not plotting together to harm others.
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Re: Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

Postby natty dread on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:18 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Are black fraternities racist if they desire to have only black members because they wish to uphold a common culture within their group?


Well, that's a good question and I'd say it depends on their motivations for having such criteria.
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