Sweden Adopts Gender Neutral Pronoun

[natty dread]

I have nothing against free markets per se, except when free markets are used as a catch-all solution for every possible scenario - market forces are not the universal answer to all life's problems, and some markets do need regulation, and some things that people try to apply the "free market ideology" to aren't even really markets.

"Human rights" have probably been defined in some kind of proclamation or treaty somewhere... you might want to look it up.

So, will you answer my questions now?

[BigBallinStalin]

I have nothing against free markets per se, except when free markets are used as a catch-all solution for every possible scenario - market forces are not the universal answer to all life's problems, and some markets do need regulation, and some things that people try to apply the "free market ideology" to aren't even really markets.

"Human rights" have probably been defined in some kind of proclamation or treaty somewhere... you might want to look it up.

So, will you answer my questions now?

No, that answer for human rights was a cop-out. Exchange fail.

[Maugena]

The English language needs something similar. Unfortunately just adding or changing a letter in front "-e" or "-he"could make things confusing as it would be a word that has a different meaning already in existence or sound similar to an existing word.

I'm totally with you on this. I've always wanted to refer to a singular possessive adjective without a gender being specified or to a person without a sex being specified as a noun. I've substituted 'they' or 'one' in place of a gendered noun/adjective.

This pretty much annoys me about this certain kind of feminism. They assume that we are the product of our culture, so subjective meanings of words like "he" and "she" somehow (like magic) promote this gender inequality. Never mind that the subjective meaning will differ. To many of them, it's like my saying "the employer hired 10 workers. He then did...." magically promotes gender inequality. Why? Because according to them we have very little agency. We just respond to things like robots and think the same as these feminists presume.

Ok that's not really it, you're kind of misrepresenting and/or misunderstanding the whole argument there...

The problem is really only in situations where people don't know the gender of the person that is being referenced, and the language convention usually always defaults to "he". Kind of like male gender is the default assumption. It's not about not having agency, or gendered pronouns magically making people hate women or anything. It's more about creating an environment that is inclusive to all genders, you can still use gendered pronouns when referring to a person whose gender is known.

It's kind of like if you were a black person, and there'd be different pronouns for white and black people, and people would always default to using the white-people-pronoun... I bet that wouldn't feel too good for you.

No one's claiming that adopting gender-neutral pronouns is going to somehow magically fix gender inequality, it's more of a gesture or courtesy towards people of other than male gender, that their existence is acknowledged and so on...

Another thing is, that stereotypes and cultural conventions do affect the behaviour of people - even if you consciously know that men and women are equal, or white and black people are equal, or straight and gay people are equal etc. there's tons of assumptions about gender, race, sexuality etc. hidden in the cultural narrative, which you can internalize even without consciously realizing it. They usually manifest as unconscious assumptions, or things everyone just takes for granted... it's only when you really think to question those assumptions that you'll notice that there's really no basis for them.

Well said, Natty.

[natty dread]

I have nothing against free markets per se, except when free markets are used as a catch-all solution for every possible scenario - market forces are not the universal answer to all life's problems, and some markets do need regulation, and some things that people try to apply the "free market ideology" to aren't even really markets.

"Human rights" have probably been defined in some kind of proclamation or treaty somewhere... you might want to look it up.

So, will you answer my questions now?

No, that answer for human rights was a cop-out. Exchange fail.

Human rights are defined in the human rights proclamation. There's no need for me to re-define what they are. You're just using that as an excuse to keep dodging my questions.

[Army of GOD]

so according to natty, if it's written down then it is true. Therefore everything in the Bible is true.

[BigBallinStalin]

I have nothing against free markets per se, except when free markets are used as a catch-all solution for every possible scenario - market forces are not the universal answer to all life's problems, and some markets do need regulation, and some things that people try to apply the "free market ideology" to aren't even really markets.

"Human rights" have probably been defined in some kind of proclamation or treaty somewhere... you might want to look it up.

So, will you answer my questions now?

No, that answer for human rights was a cop-out. Exchange fail.

Human rights are defined in the human rights proclamation. There's no need for me to re-define what they are. You're just using that as an excuse to keep dodging my questions.

Article 12

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Enough of your arbitrary interference with my correspondence. I shall not be subjected to your attacks upon my honour and reputation!

You're behaving worst than corporate interests!

[BigBallinStalin]

Ok, BBS. I have a few questions to you.

1. Can you give some examples of what kind of methods are "certain american feminists" employing that are attempting to enforce gender equality by the means of government enforcement and/or regulation, and why is government intervention not appropriate in this instance (unless you assert that government intervention is universally a bad thing)?

Take the gender wage gap. Here's a D.C. group with numerous citations:

http://www.iwpr.org/about

The poverty of families headed by single mothers would fall by half if the wage gap were eliminated. IWPR's Equal Pay for Working Families report from 1999 was used to introduce pay equity legislation in the states.



Hispanic women earn only 53 percent of what white men earn for full-time, year-round work. African American women earn only 62 percent. Women of all races earn 77 percent of what men earn for full-time, year-round work. Updated twice per year, IWPR’s Gender Wage Gap Fact Sheet is used by advocates and policymakers to build support for passage of the Paycheck Fairness Act.

Why do I oppose these stances? Because they don't understand, or care to understand, the factors which determine wages. The costs of these acts and equalizing laws aren't worth the benefit. If someone isn't as productive, yet you must pay them the same amount as someone who is more productive, then you'll simply go with who is most productive.

Subjecting everyone to the same wage doesn't fix things. (see the video below for further explanation)

2. Can you give some examples of how external cultural effects are exaggerated? What kind of external cultural effects are exaggerated and why are they not as significant as they are made out to be by these certain american feminists?

The gender wage gap is a fun one! These feminists tend to blame SEXISM, institutionalized blah blah blah, and any other cultural effect they can name, but in reality, these effects play an extremely minor role on the gender wage gap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

More Information:

Cities Where Women Outearn Male Counterparts: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/09/ ... male-cou...

An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women: http://www.consad.com/content/reports/G ... Report.pdf

Diana Furchtgott-Roth's testimony before the Joint Economic Committee in 2010: http://jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? ... 8ad4-f64...

3. As a gender-egalitarian I mostly agree about your assessment that people should be treated as individuals and not be reduced to stereotypes. What kind of measures do you believe feminists and other social justice activists should take in order to promote this type of thinking among the general population?


4. What kind of measures do you think feminists and other social justice activists should take in order to reduce discrimination and promote gender equality, racial equality, ____ equality?

I've already answered this here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=169713&start=15#p3707072

See "indirect means" or "indirect method."

[natty dread]

Take the gender wage gap. Here's a D.C. group with numerous citations:

Why do I oppose these stances? Because they don't understand, or care to understand, the factors which determine wages. The costs of these acts and equalizing laws aren't worth the benefit. If someone isn't as productive, yet you must pay them the same amount as someone who is more productive, then you'll simply go with who is most productive.

So, do you disagree with the assessment that women tend to generally be paid smaller wages for the same jobs than men?

Or, do you assert that women are just less productive than men?

The gender wage gap is a fun one! These feminists tend to blame SEXISM, institutionalized blah blah blah, and any other cultural effect they can name, but in reality, these effects play an extremely minor role on the gender wage gap.

What causes the pay gap then? Specifically, what causes the gap in pay of men and women at the exact same jobs?

See also this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... ingtonpost

Our recent Catalyst report, The Myth of the Ideal Worker , reveals that women do ask for raises and promotions. They just don’t get as much in return.

The research focused on career paths of high-potential men and women, drawing on thousands of MBA graduates from top schools around the world. Catalyst found that, among those who had moved on from their first post-MBA job, there was no significant difference in the proportion of women and men who asked for increased compensation or a higher position.

Yet the rewards were different.

Women who initiated such conversations and changed jobs post MBA experienced slower compensation growth than the women who stayed put. For men, on the other hand, it paid off to change jobs and negotiate for higher salaries—they earned more than men who stayed did. And we saw that as both men’s and women’s careers progress, the gender gap in level and pay gets even wider.

So, what exactly are you saying? That the pay gap between men & women on similar jobs doesn't exist, or that it exist but it shouldn't be addressed because free markets, or ...what?

I've already answered this here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=169713&start=15#p3707072

See "indirect means" or "indirect method."

You haven't really answered it though. What kind of "indirect methods" would you suggest for combating gender inequality?

[BigBallinStalin]

Take the gender wage gap. Here's a D.C. group with numerous citations:

Why do I oppose these stances? Because they don't understand, or care to understand, the factors which determine wages. The costs of these acts and equalizing laws aren't worth the benefit. If someone isn't as productive, yet you must pay them the same amount as someone who is more productive, then you'll simply go with who is most productive.

So, do you disagree with the assessment that women tend to generally be paid smaller wages for the same jobs than men?

Or, do you assert that women are just less productive than men?

The gender wage gap is a fun one! These feminists tend to blame SEXISM, institutionalized blah blah blah, and any other cultural effect they can name, but in reality, these effects play an extremely minor role on the gender wage gap.

What causes the pay gap then? Specifically, what causes the gap in pay of men and women at the exact same jobs?

See also this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... ingtonpost

Our recent Catalyst report, The Myth of the Ideal Worker , reveals that women do ask for raises and promotions. They just don’t get as much in return.

The research focused on career paths of high-potential men and women, drawing on thousands of MBA graduates from top schools around the world. Catalyst found that, among those who had moved on from their first post-MBA job, there was no significant difference in the proportion of women and men who asked for increased compensation or a higher position.

Yet the rewards were different.

Women who initiated such conversations and changed jobs post MBA experienced slower compensation growth than the women who stayed put. For men, on the other hand, it paid off to change jobs and negotiate for higher salaries—they earned more than men who stayed did. And we saw that as both men’s and women’s careers progress, the gender gap in level and pay gets even wider.

So, what exactly are you saying? That the pay gap between men & women on similar jobs doesn't exist, or that it exist but it shouldn't be addressed because free markets, or ...what?

So many questions! Watch the 4 minute video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

More Information:

Cities Where Women Outearn Male Counterparts: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/09/ ... male-cou...

An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women: http://www.consad.com/content/reports/G ... Report.pdf

Diana Furchtgott-Roth's testimony before the Joint Economic Committee in 2010: http://jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? ... 8d946962db

I've already answered this here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=169713&start=15#p3707072

See "indirect means" or "indirect method."

You haven't really answered it though. What kind of "indirect methods" would you suggest for combating gender inequality?

If you read that link, then the answer is painstakingly obvious. There's no point in me repeating myself. It's a waste of my time.

[natty dread]

Can you like, summarize for me the points you think those links are making, and the conclusions you would draw from them? Just posting a bunch of links and saying "this all explains everything and it should be obvious" isn't really constructive for the discussion.

If you read that link, then the answer is painstakingly obvious. There's no point in me repeating myself. It's a waste of my time.

Every moment you spend on this forum is a waste of time regardless.

What exactly are your "indirect methods"? Nowhere in that post you linked to did you explain what your "indirect methods" are. If you don't know, if you just have some vague idea of indirectness in your mind but can't really think of anything concrete, just say so. We can work this out.

[BigBallinStalin]

Can you like, summarize for me the points you think those links are making, and the conclusions you would draw from them? Just posting a bunch of links and saying "this all explains everything and it should be obvious" isn't really constructive for the discussion.

Sorry, natty, I'm not going to do your homework. If you don't give a shit about watching a 4-minute video (4 minutes, OMG TOO LONG), then why should I spend more than 4 minutes answering your questions? Nearly all of them are already answered in the four minute video, so just watch it.

If you read that link, then the answer is painstakingly obvious. There's no point in me repeating myself. It's a waste of my time.

Every moment you spend on this forum is a waste of time regardless.

Are you still butthurt about being wrong with your "collective benefit" crap? hahaha!

Is this the part where we exchange insults because you refuse to watch a 4-minute video? YAWN-fest.

What exactly are your "indirect methods"? Nowhere in that post you linked to did you explain what your "indirect methods" are. If you don't know, if you just have some vague idea of indirectness in your mind but can't really think of anything concrete, just say so. We can work this out.

Ah, okay. Read the part about internal and external change.

[Army of GOD]

Can you like, summarize for me the points you think those links are making, and the conclusions you would draw from them? Just posting a bunch of links and saying "this all explains everything and it should be obvious" isn't really constructive for the discussion.

hahahahaha...says the guy who posted two links to a Wikipedia page when asked what he believes are human rights.

get the f*ck over yourself

[Army of GOD]

inb4 "hurr durr AoG you dumbo"

[natty dread]

Sorry, natty, I'm not going to do your homework. If you don't give a shit about watching a 4-minute video (4 minutes, OMG TOO LONG), then why should I spend more than 4 minutes answering your questions? Nearly all of them are already answered in the four minute video, so just watch it.

No, I think that's just an excuse for you to bail out of the discussion, as per your usual style. It's the oldest trick in the book. You post a few links, maybe a video or two, then say "you have to go through all of these things I posted and watch every video and order this manuscript written in sanskrit braille, they explain my point for me"...

Seriously, how hard is it to summarize your point in two or three concise points? Use bullet points if you have to...

Unless maybe you don't really have any cogent argument to make and are just trying to distract by posting a shitton of links. See BBS, I see right through you.

If you read that link, then the answer is painstakingly obvious. There's no point in me repeating myself. It's a waste of my time.

Yeah... I rest my case.

[Symmetry]

Ouch, ITT BBS gets hurt hard, and can't back up even his most basic points.

It'll be a tough fight for him to redeem himself. Fight fans take note! Odds on BBS demanding that a poster answer a weird set of questions before he replies are now closed. Bets are open, though odds are short, on the likelihood he'll resort to posting pictures.

[natty dread]

All I'm trying is to get some kind of understanding what BBS is arguing, and it's getting pretty hard because he constantly refuses to post his arguments in a clear and concise manner. Maybe he's knows his arguments are weak and is thus just obfuscating on purpose? Or maybe he himself doesn't really know what he wants to argue. Or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's just having trouble putting his thoughts to words. That's ok, we all do sometimes.

So, let's try to make some sense out of this... as far as I can tell, BBS is making the following arguments:

- the gender wage gap doesn't exist OR the gender wage gap does exist but is actually caused by some mysterious market forces and not sexism
- any external measures that try to correct sexism or gender inequality are stupid, because they are external measures and external measures are bad always
- internal measures should be used instead, but what those internal measures are or how they could be implemented, no one knows

BBS: is this accurate so far?

[BigBallinStalin]

lol, okay, fellas.

natty: Why is your opinion of them so?
BBS: because of X, Y, and Z. Here's some sources.
natty: I REFUSE TO WATCH A FOUR-MINUTE VIDEO, OR READ YOUR PAST POSTS WHICH ALREADY ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. I know, instead I'll make strawman arguments! YEAH!

Okay, natty. I guess we'll just have to wait until you stop acting like a little kid, or until the UN makes a new article on basic human rights which requires that I take you seriously.

[natty dread]

Haha, calm down man. I'm just trying to understand what you're trying to argue. No need to start flinging ad-hominems left and right.

[Army of GOD]

When you ask me for my argument I'll post Wikipedia articles, but when you post links I'll complain and ask for a summarization

[natty dread]

AoG, I'm fairly certain BBS doesn't need a cheerleading squad.

Also, you're too short to be a cheerleader.

[thegreekdog]

BBS, he's our man. If he can't explain feminism, gender wage gaps, disparity in wages among cities, no one can!

Ouch, ITT BBS gets hurt hard, and can't back up even his most basic points.

It'll be a tough fight for him to redeem himself. Fight fans take note! Odds on BBS demanding that a poster answer a weird set of questions before he replies are now closed. Bets are open, though odds are short, on the likelihood he'll resort to posting pictures.

I'm so shocked to see this. SHOCKED!

[BigBallinStalin]

When you ask me for my argument I'll post Wikipedia articles, but when you post links I'll complain and ask for a summarization

natty dread style of argumentation:

1) Please explain yourself and provide examples.
2) After seeing your explanation, links to what you already typed, outside sources, and after having one part clarified, I deem this insufficient.
3) I can't be bothered to get into details by watching a 4-minute video, so....
4) I now demand... A Summary!
5) It is to be no more than 53 words, typed in Veranda font, and translated into Finnish in order to avoid any misunderstandings. I also want three cans of pickled cod emailed to natty_dread@DERPISTAN.net.

[BigBallinStalin]

Haha, calm down man. I'm just trying to understand what you're trying to argue. No need to start flinging ad-hominems left and right.

I'm perfectly calm, dude.


re underlined:
If you were, then why not watch a four minute video?

The answer is obvious. You don't really care. If you did, we could've been on our way to mutual understanding after you watched that 4-minute video. Instead you've got other motives like setting up strawman arguments, demanding more and more for no sincere reason, etc. Why? Most likely because you're butthurt about something.

Therefore, "acting like a little kid" is an accurate and true description of you ITT.

[natty dread]

What strawman arguments where?

I haven't posted any strawman arguments. You can't refuse to characterize your argument clearly and then when someone tries to make some sense of your incoherent ramblings accuse them of strawmanning. Or you can but then you'd be a troll.

I'm not really demanding anything onerous of you - only that you make your arguments clear, and not refer to some vague youtube videos that may or may not contain footage of monkeys masturbating in a bucket...

[army of nobunaga]

Seems like Bigballinstalin defended his position- like he usually does... and Natty attacked the argument and methods of argument then the person and resorted to a masturbating comment.... point to the balls.

On a serious note you people need to not confront the bigball personally because he usually rolls all of you.


And on another note... Doesn't Sweden still have the only ogres left in existence? Maybe not but they do have some good ass balls of meat in cream sauce.