A victory for Socialism! Hollande defeats Sarkozy!

[BigBallinStalin]

If a central bank strongly influences the interest rate, doesn't this involve economic central planning?

If a government forces people to accept its paper money as legal tender, doesn't this involve economic central planning?

[betiko]

From my point of view I should point out that I have a vested interest in seeing the slow and inexorable slide in the value of the Euro. I have been making hay on this for some time now (ever since every one – including a couple here – said the mighty Euro would never slide in value when it was around €1.12/£1 as against a present €1.24/£1)

Pop back a few years and review. Various European Govts have tried, however ineffectually, to tackle the debt crisis. What is now happening, is that countries are seeing voters demanding precisely the high-tax and high-spend policies which caused the recession in the first place.

What has happened in France and Greece is the start of what will be many advances by the populist left. In both places, candidates were elbowing each other aside during the campaign to demand more intervention and an end to cuts.

In the UK we haven’t seen an unapologetic Socialist like François Hollande for nigh on 30 years. He has stated openly he wants wealth taxes, stimulus spending and a massive expansion of the state payroll. What no one has asked is whether or not, this is what got the situation to where it is today in the first place! But dear old Hollande isn’t stupid, he knows this will create uncertainty in the markets and perhaps create further downgrades in credit rating...so his answer is....(roll of drums) he will create a French credit ratings agency which, unlike the American ones, will tell him what he wants to hear....Great stuff! And how so typically Gallic.

His program is summarised as growth, not austerity’...righty ho. That’ll all be fine then. Truth be told, France is pretty much in the shitter anyway. The Govt accounts for a huge 56% of the economy and the country last balanced it’s budget in 1974! (Some time before many of you were born I’ll be bound). On his logic, France should be the wealthiest country in Europe!

I was fascinated that during their campaigns, not one of the candidates ever mentioned smaller Govt. Even Sarko (he of the challenged height) promised to make France ‘stronger than the markets’ by using Government funds....whatever that means??? (Always remember...Markets break Governments, not the other way round)Indeed, all 10 candidates offered more of the same medicine that has made this situation what it is today. It was the same in Greece.

In summary, any Politician who cries out ‘Make the rich pay!’ has the advantage over one who says (truthfully), ‘The rich don’t have anything like enough to pay for all the things that the government is doing, so we need to make savings’.

The Europeans who find themselves in this position should stop fooling themselves. There is too much debt, simple. In order to fund their growth, governments squeezed the private sector for all it was worth. When they exhausted its capacity, they started to tax future generations through borrowing. Sooner or later, of course, the money was bound to run out.

With the banking collapse 4 years ago, the moment of truth finally appeared close up and personal. So what did they do....well Govts responded by accelerating all the policies which brought them here in the first place: more regulation, more debt, more Brussels intervention.

As the overall economy deteriorates, voters feel angry and betrayed. They listen sympathetically to anyone who will say: ‘The bankers caused this mess: make them pay!’ Why wouldn’t they??? After all, they know no better, successive tinkering with education has left most classes unable to understand the macro economics I was taught as standard when I was at school....and it is obvious now, why these Govts did tinker...think about it.

Interesting analysis. Although i think that back in 2007 one of the major axis of sarkozy's campaign was arount reducing the public debt; and after his 5 years as president it has almost tripled (but in a terrible world economy situation with all the 2008 crisis that is still on). I think that compared to some of our neighbours france didn't do so bad during his presidency. Real estate has increased value, unemployment is bad, but 10% is kind of ok compared to the 20%+ in spain and he managed to avoid some of our big banks to go bamkrupt between other things.
I think that in the context he didn't do too bad, but that people look at results and say he failed compared to his 2007 promises. We haven't had a socialist president since mitterand in 1995, people just wanted change. Sarkozy has suffered from his poor personal image that has anoyed a majority of french people (he made a sort of french air force1, increased his salary by 140%, always showing off with golden rolex and aviator ray bans, was caught on a footage replying "well then get lost asshole" to an agricultor, had some dodgy anti-immigration policies, ect ect)
People just think that if sarkozy increased that much the debt during his mandate, well, they'd better put hollande that would have more humanist measures and wouldn't be so "bling bling" which anoyed the french. They don't know what they've put us into, but it's for sure a total lack of pragmatism.

I think that Bayrou was the best candidate to reduce the debt and I voted for him because that was for me the number 1 concern. unfortunately he did a lousy 10% (18% in 2007); now will have to figure how to bear this clown that is going to ruin the country even more. And my big concern is that in the 2017 elections extreme right with marine le pen could take over the power. they did a scary 18%, and were clearly waiting for hollande to win in order to take over the power in 2017 once people get really pissed off at socialists and think the normal right is not good enough.

[vodean]

because the french are notoriously... well, french. they have a habit of protesting and complaining over minor encumberances and going on strike when their christmas bonuses arent large enough. they did endorse (by a small marjority, yes, but a majority nonetheless) hollande, who has promised to increase government spending during a deficit and debt crisis, and still seems to think that he can cut the debt down to 0 in 5 years, showing that the french dont even learn elementary math in school, raising the question of why they spend billions on forcing every child to go to school .

Why do you hate the French so much? Is Ethiopia a (former) colony?

im not even ethiopian... its just the french fail at everything they attempt so hard that they deserve to get made fun of just a little. its not the people i dont like. its the country. and ethiopia is the only country in africa never to be colonized. there are no colonies left in africa, and not even anywhere in the world. they are pretty much just territories, not colonies. and they are small, virtually uninhabited islands. colonialism ended when it went out of style in the 60's.

Timminz, we in the US only approve of democracy if it furthers our political agenda. Stop being reasonable.

we outside the US do the same. as do those (assuming they exist) outside earth, and all others that may exist.

What is now Ethiopia was colonised by the Italians ( Embarassing or what ) from 1936-41.
The British conquered it a century earlier but saw no profit in colonising it , no strategic or commercial benefit I would guess.

not embarrassing at all (unlike misspelling embarrassing, i'm assuming) since 5 years is not enough to colonize a nation. especially ethiopia. they did control (occupy) the capital for 5 years, but did not have control over politics, religion, society, culture, or the military. They did not even have support of any of the people (like almost any other colony did). The British did conquer in the 1860s, because emperor Tewedros II had taken some missionaries as hostage/cannon-making slaves, but withdrew once Tewedros committed suicide. Do some research or post on a topic you know anything about next time.
sorry about the late reply, just hadn't seen it until now.


Back on topic, reading back a few pages, summarily, I have seen quotes and evidence that Hollande will not reduce the deficit, and endorses deficit spending, but haven't seen much other than "he promised such and such" to the contrary... hence Hollande will probably not significantly reduce the deficit. We will see in 5 years. Sorry to France that they have to wait so long.

[Symmetry]

ITT Vodean slowly apologises for misunderstanding the difference between deficits and debts, but can't quite admit so openly.

[vodean]

ITT Vodean slowly apologises for misunderstanding the difference between deficits and debts, but can't quite admit so openly.

not misunderstanding, misreading. unlike when you misunderstood and thought scotty was fallible. he is clearly not.

[Symmetry]

ITT Vodean slowly apologises for misunderstanding the difference between deficits and debts, but can't quite admit so openly.

not misunderstanding, misreading. unlike when you misunderstood and thought scotty was fallible. he is clearly not.

No, you misunderstood, repeatedly, and you'd have my respect if you accepted that you misunderstood. Unfortunately you used your misunderstood assumption to take the piss out of other people for their ignorance.

Now that you know that your arguments were wrong, where do we stand?

[BigBallinStalin]

It seems like Symmetry needs to get into a prolonged hissy-fit with at least one per day every day.

[Symmetry]

It seems like Symmetry needs to get into a prolonged hissy-fit with at least one per day every day.

With at least one what?

[Phatscotty]

[notyou2]

Gee, I think there are numerous socialist countries that currently have better economies than the US. Norway, Canada and Sweden immediately come to mind.

[Phatscotty]

Gee, I think there are numerous socialist countries that currently have better economies than the US. Norway, Canada and Sweden immediately come to mind.

yet, the countries have entirely different values and ways of life. Who's economy is better has nothing to do with it.

[Baron Von PWN]

Gee, I think there are numerous socialist countries that currently have better economies than the US. Norway, Canada and Sweden immediately come to mind.

yet, the countries have entirely different values and ways of life. Who's economy is better has nothing to do with it.

considering socialism is a ideology having to do with economics it kind of does.

[BigBallinStalin]

um wut. Y'all know Thomas Sowell is referring to centrally planned economies, right? Not regulated market economies like Norway, Canada, and Sweden.

[MeDeFe]

um wut. Y'all know Thomas Sowell is referring to centrally planned economies, right? Not regulated market economies like Norway, Canada, and Sweden.

Thomas Sowell would do do ever so well if he learned to use correct terminology so as to avoid making himself appear to be a moron.

[2dimes]

yet, the countries have entirely different values and ways of life. Who's economy is better has nothing to do with it.

Other than it snows more and when we need to get heart surgery we don't want to wait until our insurance/credit check clears, how is USA Jr. er... I mean Canada different from it's neighbor? We want Big Macs, Coke, iProducts and Levis just like every other Russian.

[GreecePwns]

I understand where Phatscotty is coming from, but he underestimates the power of incentives. Those values can be tossed aside if people are given enough incentive to change (example: if corn subsidies in the US were removed completely, people would be more likely to eat healthier because healthier foods would be more competitive in terms of price with corn-based products).

Cultural values and norms are simply behaviors that have been, for the very long term, incentivized in a given society, to the point where the given society cannot remember a time where things were different (or cannot even think of things in a different way).

[2dimes]

Incentives only factor in to a degree though. The healthiest foods are much more labour intensive. You need to manually pull up the weeds and chase away as many bugs as you can.

Commercial farming is far easier to produce volume via use of chemicals and even genetically modified organisms. You fly a plane over and spray some fertalizer/weed killer and you'll yield far more food per acre. Of course the subsidies drive more farmers to produce a particular crop, corn being an excellent example but there's a certain amount of desire to maximise yields and therefore profits for most. We naturally want to make more money because it equals, a nicer car and more Big Macs, Coke, iProducts and Levis for us and our family.

To a large extent if you have been growing X for a long period of time, it can be difficult to change your entire oporation to grow anything else.

[vodean]

It seems like Symmetry needs to get into a prolonged hissy-fit with at least one per day every day.

With at least one what?

make that two. people. dumbass.

ITT Vodean slowly apologises for misunderstanding the difference between deficits and debts, but can't quite admit so openly.

not misunderstanding, misreading. unlike when you misunderstood and thought scotty was fallible. he is clearly not.

No, you misunderstood, repeatedly, and you'd have my respect if you accepted that you misunderstood. Unfortunately you used your misunderstood assumption to take the piss out of other people for their ignorance.

Now that you know that your arguments were wrong, where do we stand?

again with the lies!! blatant lies! i did this once, after reading through pages of posts, where other people used both terms almost interchangeably. I Believe *notice the "believe" suggesting that i dont know for certain, and im not claiming that its fact, unlike someone * that I wasnt even the first person to make the mistake, but i was the first who disagreed with you, so you called me out on it.

sym, unstead of attacking me, and anyone else who doesnt agree with you, try attacking out arguments. My original post is still valid (assuming you change one word). try beating it down. not me. once you do that, then this discussion can move forward.

ill even give an example:

Gee, I think there are numerous socialist countries that currently have better economies than the US. Norway, Canada and Sweden immediately come to mind.

yet, the countries have entirely different values and ways of life. Who's economy is better has nothing to do with it.

considering socialism is a ideology having to do with economics it kind of does.

well, by

different values and ways of life

scotty means that canada is empty and has exportable resources. norway is empty and oil-rich. sweden just empty. because of that emptiness, these countries become much easier to manage, using any system than the world's third-largest, third most populous, and biggest economy.

[BigBallinStalin]

um wut. Y'all know Thomas Sowell is referring to centrally planned economies, right? Not regulated market economies like Norway, Canada, and Sweden.

Thomas Sowell would do do ever so well if he learned to use correct terminology so as to avoid making himself appear to be a moron.

1) out of context quotes suck

2) that dude isn't a moron--regardless of how much PS quotes from him.