Out of the Closet

[natty dread]

I do not see a discrepancy in the way they dress. Men and women both wear skin tight uniforms to accentuate muscles or tits or asses...

Your argument contradicts itself right there.

Men wear uniforms to accentuate muscles. Women wear uniforms to accentuate t & a. How is that no discrepancy?

Also, this:

I don't see a discrepancy in how they are posed. Men are seen flexing or whatever; women are in whatever sexy poses.

Again, your argument contradicts itself. It's like the male heroes are there for business, the females are there to look sexy. And that's not even going to the depiction of human anatomy... have you ever tried pointing your chest and ass towards the same direction?

[thegreekdog]

I do not see a discrepancy in the way they dress. Men and women both wear skin tight uniforms to accentuate muscles or tits or asses...

Your argument contradicts itself right there.

Men wear uniforms to accentuate muscles. Women wear uniforms to accentuate t & a. How is that no discrepancy?

Also, this:

I don't see a discrepancy in how they are posed. Men are seen flexing or whatever; women are in whatever sexy poses.

Again, your argument contradicts itself. It's like the male heroes are there for business, the females are there to look sexy. And that's not even going to the depiction of human anatomy... have you ever tried pointing your chest and ass towards the same direction?

I don't see the discrepancy. It appears that you're looking at the male superheroes through the heterosexual male lens and the female superheroes through the heterosexual male lens.

Have you ever had 100 inch biceps?

[natty dread]

I don't see the discrepancy. It appears that you're looking at the male superheroes through the heterosexual male lens and the female superheroes through the heterosexual male lens.

That's because the superheroes are portrayed through a heterosexual male lens.

The discrepancy however exists in that male superheroes have costumes that show off their muscles, ie. they show off their strength, their fighting ability, something that is at least marginally utilitarian for a superhero. Whereas, female superheroes have stripper outfits.

[jonesthecurl]

So what would be "too sexy" in a male character?
Bulging groin?
Most female characters, though arguably underdressed, don't show camel toe.

[natty dread]

So what would be "too sexy" in a male character?
Bulging groin?
Most female characters, though arguably underdressed, don't show camel toe.

Ugh. Look, I don't know if I'm just not making myself clear or maybe you're only reading every 3rd post I make... but "too sexy" isn't the problem here. That's a strawman argument, I'm totally fine with sexy.

Hey I know, I'll just quote a post I wrote

I think you don't really get what the objection is though. It's not that there are sexy female characters. Sexy is fine. You seem to be implying that the misogynist treatment of women & sexiness is something that are inherently intertwined, but that just isn't true. There's tons of comics that have female characters that are totally hot + sexy, but which don't portray females in a misogynistic way.

The problematic part comes from things like gratuituous sexiness, when the sexiness seems forced and plastered on - when every panel needs to show tits and ass, no matter how contorted and weird and impractical it makes the characters look... when all the camera angles and costumes are designed to show off sexiness, disregarding internal consistency of the story, or character personalities... when there's discrepancies between how male and female characters are treated and portrayed, just to show off the sexy... when artists don't even give a shit about human anatomy, and draw characters in weird, impossible poses...

And not all gratuituous sexiness is bad, there's nothing wrong with some fanservice now and then, but when it becomes the main reason for the existence of female characters, when it's being added to every damn page without considering the story, the flow and pacing, the character development... that's when it becomes a problem.

Also, I know mainstream superhero comics aren't the only ones with these problems, but they seem to be most prevalent in them.

[BigBallinStalin]

As far as combating crime goes, aren't "stripper outfits" advantageous?


"Oh, look, she's a stripper!"

Criminal A gets his teeth kicked in.


You see, element of surprise is behind the scanty clothing.

[natty dread]

As far as combating crime goes, aren't "stripper outfits" advantageous?


"Oh, look, she's a stripper!"

Criminal A gets his teeth kicked in.


You see, element of surprise is behind the scanty clothing.

Right, right. It's why sexy women never get assaulted/robbed/killed in the real world... everyone knows hookers & strippers never get to any trouble because they can just confuse any attacker with their skimpy clothing. Right.

I dunno, it'd seem to me like exposing all that skin, plus all that long, flowing hair would be a disadvantage in combat? There's a reason why militaries usually shave your heads you know... Also, ever try running/fighting in high heels, that's just implausible.

[thegreekdog]

I don't see the discrepancy. It appears that you're looking at the male superheroes through the heterosexual male lens and the female superheroes through the heterosexual male lens.

That's because the superheroes are portrayed through a heterosexual male lens.

The discrepancy however exists in that male superheroes have costumes that show off their muscles, ie. they show off their strength, their fighting ability, something that is at least marginally utilitarian for a superhero. Whereas, female superheroes have stripper outfits.

I suspect that heterosexual women enjoy muscles in a similar way that heterosexual men enjoy t&a.

The pictures you've posted here, while funny, certainly illustrate my point rather well. Are Power Woman and whatever-the-fuck-bat-girl-rip-off less sexy because they are wearing skin-tight outfits? Are Superman and Batman any less muscular because they are wearing the "stripper outfits?"

[jonesthecurl]

Or look at it this way: Consider trapese artists: I suspect the outfits of both the men and the women are designed to make them look good. But the men have outfits that (minus the glitter) would look right as superhero outfits, and so do the women.

Not that the awkward posing isn't a real thing - or that it doesn't sometimes look silly.

[natty dread]

I suspect that heterosexual women enjoy muscles in a similar way that heterosexual men enjoy t&a.

The pictures you've posted here, while funny, certainly illustrate my point rather well. Are Power Woman and whatever-the-f*ck-bat-girl-rip-off less sexy because they are wearing skin-tight outfits? Are Superman and Batman any less muscular because they are wearing the "stripper outfits?"

Wtf are you even talking about? Are you seriously, in total honesty making the claim that male superheroes are portrayed as muscular because it looks attractive to women?

For that matter, I'm not a heterosexual woman so I can't say for certain, but as far as I can tell, most women I know don't really get turned on by huge, buffed mr-universe-type muscles.

When you look at superman or batman, "sexy" isn't the first thing that comes to mind. Their appearance is more designed to make them look strong, heroic, capable, etc. They have all the classic features of the superhero archetype: the square jaw, strong facial features, wide shoulders, tall, etc. Compare to female superheroes, who mostly look like they're on their way to perform in a bachelor party.

See, that just perfectly reflects the cultural narrative in which men are judged by their achievements, while women are judged by their looks. That's the problem here.

Not that the awkward posing isn't a real thing - or that it doesn't sometimes look silly.

Sometimes?

[thegreekdog]

Wtf are you even talking about? Are you seriously, in total honesty making the claim that male superheroes are portrayed as muscular because it looks attractive to women?

For that matter, I'm not a heterosexual woman so I can't say for certain, but as far as I can tell, most women I know don't really get turned on by huge, buffed mr-universe-type muscles.

When you look at superman or batman, "sexy" isn't the first thing that comes to mind. Their appearance is more designed to make them look strong, heroic, capable, etc. They have all the classic features of the superhero archetype: the square jaw, strong facial features, wide shoulders, tall, etc. Compare to female superheroes, who mostly look like they're on their way to perform in a bachelor party.

See, that just perfectly reflects the cultural narrative in which men are judged by their achievements, while women are judged by their looks. That's the problem here.

No, I'm saying women don't read comics because only nerds read comics. But you don't want to hear that because you live in a world where any gross generalizations (made by people other than you) are grounds for shouts of bigotry. Instead, you want to blame that more women don't read mainstream comics because they are misogynistic. Which is a self-important nonsensical "reading too much into stuff" type claim. I think your argument is ludicrous and lacks any basis in fact. But because I like to argue, I've tried to argue.

[natty dread]

No, I'm saying women don't read comics because only nerds read comics

[citation needed]

But you don't want to hear that because you live in a world where any gross generalizations (made by people other than you) are grounds for shouts of bigotry.

Wow, nice try derailing the discussion. You know, you can just admit you're wrong, I'm not going to hold it against you.

Hey tgd, lawyers are all corrupt, immoral criminals who'd sell their grandmas for the highest bidder. If you disagree with me you're just in denial because you don't like generalizations.

Instead, you want to blame that more women don't read mainstream comics because they are misogynistic. Which is a self-important nonsensical "reading too much into stuff" type claim. I think your argument is ludicrous and lacks any basis in fact.

No, YOUR argument is ludicrous and lacks any basis in fact.

I keep providing you evidence after evidence how mainstream superhero comics are misogynistic, and you just keep ignoring it and go right on with the same old tired excuses that are being thrown around all over the internet... "they're just comics"... "only nerds read comics so it doesn't matter"... "it's not misogynist because men are _____ too"... "they do it because sex sells"... For one thing, what even is a "nerd" these days? The term has pretty much lost all meaning if it ever had one.

The fact is, all the excuses you provide as defense are just that, excuses. Like I said before, I don't think the comic producers are solely to blame for the misogyny in their comics - there's so much inherent misogyny in our culture that it makes it easier and more socially acceptable for them to do it. But also, when they keep doing it, they're also perpetuating those same tired cultural notions and gender stereotypes - the excuse of "everyone does it" is never good enough. It wasn't good enough when slavery was legal, and it isn't now.

Also, it's funny how it's always "reading too much into stuff" when it's something you don't care about, but not when the issue hits closer to home...

But because I like to argue, I've tried to argue.

Well I'm not arguing against that.

[thegreekdog]

[citation needed]

I will provide citations when you provide citations.

Wow, nice try derailing the discussion. You know, you can just admit you're wrong, I'm not going to hold it against you.

Actually, your post before mine would be the derail.

Hey tgd, lawyers are all corrupt, immoral criminals who'd sell their grandmas for the highest bidder. If you disagree with me you're just in denial because you don't like generalizations.

Other than your use of the word "all," I probably agree with you. You need to come up with a better one.

No, YOUR argument is ludicrous and lacks any basis in fact.

I keep providing you evidence after evidence how mainstream superhero comics are misogynistic, and you just keep ignoring it and go right on with the same old tired excuses that are being thrown around all over the internet... "they're just comics"... "only nerds read comics so it doesn't matter"... "it's not misogynist because men are _____ too"... "they do it because sex sells"... For one thing, what even is a "nerd" these days? The term has pretty much lost all meaning if it ever had one.

What evidence. Two pictures? That's all the evidence it takes to say with a straight face "I keep providing you evidence?" The excuses that are all over the internet are all over the internet for a reason - they are good excuses.

Also, it's funny how it's always "reading too much into stuff" when it's something you don't care about, but not when the issue hits closer to home...

Do you ever not strawman? Like is there a time in your life when you're arguing and you say, "I'm not going to use a strawman today?"

[Neoteny]

While you nerds are prattling on, I'm going to make sexy time with my partner of choice. Because I am not a nerd, and have a choice in partners for sexy time.

Please ignore that I'm posting on an internet game forum.

[jonesthecurl]

While you nerds are prattling on, I'm going to make sexy time with my partner of choice. Because I am not a nerd, and have a choice in partners for sexy time.

Please ignore that I'm posting on an internet game forum.

Um, you're posting on an internet game forum.

[Neoteny]

Dammit, Jones.

[BigBallinStalin]

As far as combating crime goes, aren't "stripper outfits" advantageous?


"Oh, look, she's a stripper!"

Criminal A gets his teeth kicked in.


You see, element of surprise is behind the scanty clothing.

Right, right. It's why sexy women never get assaulted/robbed/killed in the real world... everyone knows hookers & strippers never get to any trouble because they can just confuse any attacker with their skimpy clothing. Right.

I dunno, it'd seem to me like exposing all that skin, plus all that long, flowing hair would be a disadvantage in combat? There's a reason why militaries usually shave your heads you know... Also, ever try running/fighting in high heels, that's just implausible.

unless you're a superhero, it isn't. And you can be a male superhero and wear high heels. I won't judge!

[BigBallinStalin]

I suspect that heterosexual women enjoy muscles in a similar way that heterosexual men enjoy t&a.

The pictures you've posted here, while funny, certainly illustrate my point rather well. Are Power Woman and whatever-the-f*ck-bat-girl-rip-off less sexy because they are wearing skin-tight outfits? Are Superman and Batman any less muscular because they are wearing the "stripper outfits?"

Wtf are you even talking about? Are you seriously, in total honesty making the claim that male superheroes are portrayed as muscular because it looks attractive to women?

For that matter, I'm not a heterosexual woman so I can't say for certain, but as far as I can tell, most women I know don't really get turned on by huge, buffed mr-universe-type muscles.

When you look at superman or batman, "sexy" isn't the first thing that comes to mind. Their appearance is more designed to make them look strong, heroic, capable, etc. They have all the classic features of the superhero archetype: the square jaw, strong facial features, wide shoulders, tall, etc. Compare to female superheroes, who mostly look like they're on their way to perform in a bachelor party.

See, that just perfectly reflects the cultural narrative in which men are judged by their achievements, while women are judged by their looks. That's the problem here.

You just judged the male characters by their looks...

[BigBallinStalin]

While you nerds are prattling on, I'm going to make sexy time with my partner of choice. Because I am not a nerd, and have a choice in partners for sexy time.

Please ignore that I'm posting on an internet game forum.

Neoteny's partner (NSFW):

show

[Neoteny]

Burn.

[natty dread]

I will provide citations when you provide citations.

Citations of what? You made the claim, you said "only nerds read comic books, therefore women don't read comic books" which seems to be implying that female nerds don't exist (whoa...) so now I'm waiting for you to substantiate that claim. It's not my job to prove the negative. Burden of proof and all that.

Actually, your post before mine would be the derail.

No, YOUR post is the derail.

Other than your use of the word "all," I probably agree with you. You need to come up with a better one.

But you only disagree with the word "all" because you're in denial about how the real world works. You only disagree because you don't like generalizations, you damn socialist hippie.

What evidence. Two pictures? That's all the evidence it takes to say with a straight face "I keep providing you evidence?" The excuses that are all over the internet are all over the internet for a reason - they are good excuses.

Oh, now you throw in an ad populum as well? There's also plenty of people who agree that female characters are treated in a sexist & misogynist way in mainstream comics, all over the internet - so by your logic, they must also have good arguments as well. After all, they wouldn't be all over the internet otherwise.

Do you ever not strawman? Like is there a time in your life when you're arguing and you say, "I'm not going to use a strawman today?"

You're one to speak. Just look at how you keep dodging the main issues of my arguments and nitpicking minor semantic things all the time...

[natty dread]

I suspect that heterosexual women enjoy muscles in a similar way that heterosexual men enjoy t&a.

The pictures you've posted here, while funny, certainly illustrate my point rather well. Are Power Woman and whatever-the-f*ck-bat-girl-rip-off less sexy because they are wearing skin-tight outfits? Are Superman and Batman any less muscular because they are wearing the "stripper outfits?"

Wtf are you even talking about? Are you seriously, in total honesty making the claim that male superheroes are portrayed as muscular because it looks attractive to women?

For that matter, I'm not a heterosexual woman so I can't say for certain, but as far as I can tell, most women I know don't really get turned on by huge, buffed mr-universe-type muscles.

When you look at superman or batman, "sexy" isn't the first thing that comes to mind. Their appearance is more designed to make them look strong, heroic, capable, etc. They have all the classic features of the superhero archetype: the square jaw, strong facial features, wide shoulders, tall, etc. Compare to female superheroes, who mostly look like they're on their way to perform in a bachelor party.

See, that just perfectly reflects the cultural narrative in which men are judged by their achievements, while women are judged by their looks. That's the problem here.

You just judged the male characters by their looks...

So?

[Army of GOD]

I agree with tgd in this debate, but I know natty would rather have his own testicles ripped off and then fed to him after being microwaved on high for exactly 45 seconds than admit defeat.

[natty dread]

I agree with tgd in this debate, but I know natty would rather have his own testicles ripped off and then fed to him after being microwaved on high for exactly 45 seconds than admit defeat.

Well DUH you agree with anything I disagree with, shorty.

Also, why exactly would I admit "defeat"? Because someone disagrees with what I say? That means you have to automatically "admit defeat"? And defeat in what anyway? Since when was there a "battle" here, that you could be "defeated" in?

You're not making any sense, AoG.

[thegreekdog]

Soon, so very soon, I will present MY evidence - THREE pictures of not scantily clad comic book superheroines in normal positions.