New Evidence regarding Obama

[Woodruff]

I'm pretty sure that if those things existed, I would still be able to walk down the street, go where ever I please on public property, vote for whoever I want, buy guns in the same ways, and the list goes on. So no, equality doesn't mean you don't get liberty, it just means that you get more equality.

And how is equality implemented? It costs money right? Don't you have to take money away from one person before you can give it to another? Would you be able to keep more than half of your paycheck? PePer controlling resources on a national level; doesn't that mean you likely won't be able to control your own thermostat in your home (already a reality in some places)? Per democratizing our banking and financial system; won't that likely end up shrinking opportunity for those sectors? Per achieving an adequate standard of health care, nutrition, housing, and safety; how can you do that without making an unequal choice about who and how much is to be taken from one person who earned the money, and to who and how much will be given to another person that did not earn the money. The definition won't be and can't be truly equal, but I will concede you originally stated "what is realistically possible".


and for the ways in which I believe are obvious perversions of liberty.....
Per a guaranteed salary for all adults; I don't think I need to get into that one and how liberty is impacted...do I???
Per Universal health care, child care, vacation time, and lifelong access to education and training; Ummmmm see above
A tax system based on the ability to pay???? This is straight up Marxism, Socialism, Communism, whatever you want to call it, which is most definitely not compatible with any kind of liberty. If you want to call it "Change us into Greece" that will work too.

It's HUGE government, will require HUGE borrowing, with that comes HUGE interest payments on our children. Oh, our children would be so lucky to only have so much liberty.

To be shackled by the chains of the previous generations profligate spending and debts is practically equal to an all you can eat liberty buffet!

Thomas Jefferson knew a tad about Liberty.
“It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.”

So were you ever going to delineate the liberties that would be lost, or did you plan to just continue to distract from maasman's question until it's forgotten?

As for specific kinds of liberty.....what are the options here?

It's wide open - any kind you can think of. So answer his damn question instead of trying to avoid it, you poser.

Mind your own damn business! Holy shit lmao!!!!

Yes, it is terrible when someone tries to actually hold you accountable for your statements, isn't it? If you don't like it, stop posting in a public forum.

[AAFitz]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

So, you didn't live in America as a kid? At least now that explains your misunderstanding of it.

Suggesting you have to be born in America, and even grow up in America, to be American is the most Un-American idea one could ever state.

Except I didn't suggest that you have to grow up in America to be an American. I said that growing up in America is an irreplaceable and invaluable part of understanding what it means to be an American. You went wrong when you for some unknown reason assumed that to mean growing up in America is the only way to understand what it means to be an American.

Why you and others on the left continually insert your own new words to create a new statement and create a new interpretation and new definitions is a little bit.....puzzling

You are the one offering new words, I am clearly stating that one very much need not grow up in America to understand what it means to be an American, and that it is completely Un-American to even suggest it was necessary.

As far as assuming or insinuating I am on any left, all I can do is once again laugh at your complete misunderstanding of the situation.

[maasman]

So were you ever going to delineate the liberties that would be lost, or did you plan to just continue to distract from maasman's question until it's forgotten?

From what I gathered, the only liberty being lost was the idea of how much money you're able to spend that you earn, which I countered with how things wouldn't have to change at all from what we already have (monetarily anyway).

[Phatscotty]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

So, you didn't live in America as a kid? At least now that explains your misunderstanding of it.

Suggesting you have to be born in America, and even grow up in America, to be American is the most Un-American idea one could ever state.

Except I didn't suggest that you have to grow up in America to be an American. I said that growing up in America is an irreplaceable and invaluable part of understanding what it means to be an American. You went wrong when you for some unknown reason assumed that to mean growing up in America is the only way to understand what it means to be an American.

Why you and others on the left continually insert your own new words to create a new statement and create a new interpretation and new definitions is a little bit.....puzzling

You are the one offering new words, I am clearly stating that one very much need not grow up in America to understand what it means to be an American, and that it is completely Un-American to even suggest it was necessary.

As far as assuming or insinuating I am on any left, all I can do is once again laugh at your complete misunderstanding of the situation.

I did not say it was necessary. (new word from you!)

If you want to break it down like 5 year olds.....
You can learn about America better if you grow up in it than if you don't!

To counter the response I expect from you next....No, that does not include every single situation, just the overwhelming majority. If one grows up in another country, they are obviously spending a LOT more time learning about the country they are living in. This is common sense in the extreme

[Woodruff]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

So, you didn't live in America as a kid? At least now that explains your misunderstanding of it.

Suggesting you have to be born in America, and even grow up in America, to be American is the most Un-American idea one could ever state.

Except I didn't suggest that you have to grow up in America to be an American. I said that growing up in America is an irreplaceable and invaluable part of understanding what it means to be an American. You went wrong when you for some unknown reason assumed that to mean growing up in America is the only way to understand what it means to be an American.

Why you and others on the left continually insert your own new words to create a new statement and create a new interpretation and new definitions is a little bit.....puzzling

You are the one offering new words, I am clearly stating that one very much need not grow up in America to understand what it means to be an American, and that it is completely Un-American to even suggest it was necessary.

As far as assuming or insinuating I am on any left, all I can do is once again laugh at your complete misunderstanding of the situation.

I did not say it was necessary. (new word from you!)

If you want to break it down like 5 year olds.....
You can learn about America better if you grow up in it than if you don't!

That must be why those who must past the immigration test know so much less than the average American about America. Sure. None of that fancy book-larnin' for Phatscotty!

[saxitoxin]

If one grows up in another country, they are obviously spending a LOT more time learning about the country they are living in. This is common sense in the extreme

I'm still upset no one cc:'ed me on the memo that Hawai'i was expelled from the U.S.

[Phatscotty]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

So, you didn't live in America as a kid? At least now that explains your misunderstanding of it.

Suggesting you have to be born in America, and even grow up in America, to be American is the most Un-American idea one could ever state.

Except I didn't suggest that you have to grow up in America to be an American. I said that growing up in America is an irreplaceable and invaluable part of understanding what it means to be an American. You went wrong when you for some unknown reason assumed that to mean growing up in America is the only way to understand what it means to be an American.

Why you and others on the left continually insert your own new words to create a new statement and create a new interpretation and new definitions is a little bit.....puzzling

You are the one offering new words, I am clearly stating that one very much need not grow up in America to understand what it means to be an American, and that it is completely Un-American to even suggest it was necessary.

As far as assuming or insinuating I am on any left, all I can do is once again laugh at your complete misunderstanding of the situation.

I did not say it was necessary. (new word from you!)

If you want to break it down like 5 year olds.....
You can learn about America better if you grow up in it than if you don't!

That must be why those who must past the immigration test know so much less than the average American about America. Sure. None of that fancy book-larnin' for Phatscotty!

Yup, people learn a lot more about America in a foreign country than they would learn about America in......America.....

100% certified insane

[maasman]

I'm not sure if you guys willfully ignore what the other is actually trying to say or what, but I do find it amusing.

[Woodruff]

100% certified insane

I am starting to believe that you are, yes.

[Phatscotty]

I'm not sure if you guys willfully ignore what the other is actually trying to say or what, but I do find it amusing.

It's all based on AA hearing "you can't be American if you don't grow up in America" when what I said was "growing up in America in invaluable to learning what it means to be American" It's entertaining to me because it's such a simple statement. The truth is those guys bury their heads in the sand, and their intolerance absolutely prevents them from hearing what is said, because it does not fit into what they believe, so they reject it, redefine it, call some names, twist it some more to make it fit for themselves, and end up saying insane things like the above.

AA this is not so much directed at you as it is Woody, but you did start all this!

[Phatscotty]

If one grows up in another country, they are obviously spending a LOT more time learning about the country they are living in. This is common sense in the extreme

I'm still upset no one cc:'ed me on the memo that Hawai'i was expelled from the U.S.

Obama left Hawaii when he was 5.

[AAFitz]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

So, you didn't live in America as a kid? At least now that explains your misunderstanding of it.

Suggesting you have to be born in America, and even grow up in America, to be American is the most Un-American idea one could ever state.

Except I didn't suggest that you have to grow up in America to be an American. I said that growing up in America is an irreplaceable and invaluable part of understanding what it means to be an American. You went wrong when you for some unknown reason assumed that to mean growing up in America is the only way to understand what it means to be an American.

Why you and others on the left continually insert your own new words to create a new statement and create a new interpretation and new definitions is a little bit.....puzzling

You are the one offering new words, I am clearly stating that one very much need not grow up in America to understand what it means to be an American, and that it is completely Un-American to even suggest it was necessary.

As far as assuming or insinuating I am on any left, all I can do is once again laugh at your complete misunderstanding of the situation.

I did not say it was necessary. (new word from you!)

If you want to break it down like 5 year olds.....
You can learn about America better if you grow up in it than if you don't!

To counter the response I expect from you next....No, that does not include every single situation, just the overwhelming majority. If one grows up in another country, they are obviously spending a LOT more time learning about the country they are living in. This is common sense in the extreme

You didnt say the word necessary. You said invaluable and irreplaceable. I don't think you are ready to step up to discussing things at the 5 year old level, but its nice to see you try.

Actually, I would never argue such a stupid point, and would instead argue, that in the overwhelming majority, that many well educated and intelligent people, could very much understand what it means to be American, after living here after 18, than those who lived here as children. While you may argue your sense is common, and I will agree with you there, I will argue it is not sense, but the exact opposite of it.

For any 5 year olds:

irreplaceable: unable to be replaced
necessary: needed, inescapable

[saxitoxin]

If one grows up in another country, they are obviously spending a LOT more time learning about the country they are living in. This is common sense in the extreme

I'm still upset no one cc:'ed me on the memo that Hawai'i was expelled from the U.S.

Obama left Hawaii when he was 5.

And returned when he was 10.

[AAFitz]

I'm not sure if you guys willfully ignore what the other is actually trying to say or what, but I do find it amusing.

It's all based on AA hearing "you can't be American if you don't grow up in America" when what I said was "growing up in America in invaluable to learning what it means to be American" It's entertaining to me because it's such a simple statement. The truth is those guys bury their heads in the sand, and their intolerance absolutely prevents them from hearing what is said, because it does not fit into what they believe, so they reject it, redefine it, call some names, twist it some more to make it fit for themselves, and end up saying insane things like the above.

AA this is not so much directed at you as it is Woody, but you did start all this!

Actually, its about Phatty saying living in American as a child is invaluable, and irreplaceable and me pointing out how fucking stupid that is to say.

**I notice you deleted the irreplaceable part of your quote there. I wonder if that is because the words necessary, and irreplaceable are so close in meaning. All while suggesting others are putting words into your mouth, you seem to be deleting them.

Phunnyscotty strikes again.

[saxitoxin]

I would generally agree with Scott that a nation's head-of-state or chief-of-government should have spent his or her formative years in the nation which they head. Greece's last elected Prime Minister - Papandreou - was born and raised in the U.S. and he turned out to be an utter disaster. One could argue it may, partly, be that Papandreou lacked an intuitive understanding of the Greek cultural ethos that is infused during childhood.

However, I generally think that spending 73% of the 0-18 year period in-nation - like Obama did - is sufficient.

[Phatscotty]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

So, you didn't live in America as a kid? At least now that explains your misunderstanding of it.

Suggesting you have to be born in America, and even grow up in America, to be American is the most Un-American idea one could ever state.

Except I didn't suggest that you have to grow up in America to be an American. I said that growing up in America is an irreplaceable and invaluable part of understanding what it means to be an American. You went wrong when you for some unknown reason assumed that to mean growing up in America is the only way to understand what it means to be an American.

Why you and others on the left continually insert your own new words to create a new statement and create a new interpretation and new definitions is a little bit.....puzzling

You are the one offering new words, I am clearly stating that one very much need not grow up in America to understand what it means to be an American, and that it is completely Un-American to even suggest it was necessary.

As far as assuming or insinuating I am on any left, all I can do is once again laugh at your complete misunderstanding of the situation.

I did not say it was necessary. (new word from you!)

If you want to break it down like 5 year olds.....
You can learn about America better if you grow up in it than if you don't!

To counter the response I expect from you next....No, that does not include every single situation, just the overwhelming majority. If one grows up in another country, they are obviously spending a LOT more time learning about the country they are living in. This is common sense in the extreme

You didnt say the word necessary. You said invaluable and irreplaceable. I don't think you are ready to step up to discussing things at the 5 year old level, but its nice to see you try.

Actually, I would never argue such a stupid point, and would instead argue, that in the overwhelming majority, that many well educated and intelligent people, could very much understand what it means to be American, after living here after 18, than those who lived here as children. While you may argue your sense is common, and I will agree with you there, I will argue it is not sense, but the exact opposite of it.

I addressed your response before you gave it

Of course it's possible for a foreigner to be able to understand what it means to be American. Of course a foreigner could understand what it means to be American. I never said they couldn't. But by all means, keep going on about how the exception is possible, whatever that is supposed to prove?

Growing up in America is an irreplaceable part of understanding America. I understand definitions are a tough one lately, but irreplaceable does not mean exclusive, that is, growing up in America is not the only way to learn about America (obvious!). However, it is a tremendously important part of understanding, and there is nothing else that can substitute for that kind of lifetime, hands on experience of actually living in America as opposed to reading about America in a book or from what the TV says about America. Not to mention, America focuses on teaching American history etc, Indonesia most likely focuses on teaching Indonesian history, and issues that relate to Indonesia and it's economy and educational needs. To put it plainly, everything American children learned in school from 1st grade to 8th grade, Obama was not exposed to. Some things I'm sure he was, but there is no comparison when it comes to education in a foreign country about America as opposed to learning about America IN America.

If you grew up in America, you have a billion times better chance to learn about America than if you grew up in say....Indonesia.

Obama grew up in a foreign country, and it shows.

The End

[comic boy]

Wow , another thread pointing out the dishonesty of the Phat one , he doesn't seem to learn it seems.

[aad0906]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

You mind saying that in the face of children from American servicemen and women who have lived most of their lives in places like Germany?

[AAFitz]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

You mind saying that in the face of children from American servicemen and women who have lived most of their lives in places like Germany?

Of course he would. He wouldn't mind at all, because while he has lived in America, he truly has no idea what it really is to be American, and obviously so.....

though some of the stereotypes do seem to apply.

[saxitoxin]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old

Just to clarify this, the figure is 27%, not 80%. From 0-5 and 10-18 he was in Hawai'i, which has been affiliated with the U.S. since 1898. The telephone area code of Hawai'i is 808, the principal industries are sugarcane farming and tourism, the anthem is Hawaii Pono'i and the governor is Dog the Bounty Hunter.

[Phatscotty]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

You mind saying that in the face of children from American servicemen and women who have lived most of their lives in places like Germany?

Probably not, since they are serving our country (as it is), as compared to fundamentally transforming it (into something else)....

[AAFitz]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

You mind saying that in the face of children from American servicemen and women who have lived most of their lives in places like Germany?

Probably not, since they are serving our country (as it is), as compared to fundamentally transforming it (into something else)....

So does this still mean their children do not understand what it means to be American as much, simply because they do not live here as you suggested was an invaluable and irreplaceable , or that it is replaceable if their parents are serving in the military?, or are you saying you just would say anything to them?

Also, is living in the other 2 and not the other 48 somehow differently American, or was this just a pointless piece of information with no purpose whatsoever?

[Phatscotty]

Obama's birthplace aside, it is a fact he did not grow up in mainland America and literally grew up in a foreign country for 80% of his time under 18 years old, and Obama did not step a foot into the lower 48 until he was 18 years old.

That's where his unAmericanism comes from. Growing up in America is an invaluable and irreplaceable part of understanding what it means to be an American.

You mind saying that in the face of children from American servicemen and women who have lived most of their lives in places like Germany?

Probably not, since they are serving our country (as it is), as compared to fundamentally transforming it (into something else)....

So does this still mean their children do not understand what it means to be American as much, simply because they do not live here as you suggested was an invaluable and irreplaceable , or that it is replaceable if their parents are serving in the military?

In this case (again, the exception), these children have American parents who are serving in the military, and most likely the parents are not Pinko Commie Socialists...

[comic boy]

So Scotty when you stated 80% instead of the true figure of 27% were you dishonestly exagerating or just plain wrong ?

[spurgistan]

If Scotty is making the case for the Hawaiian independence movement, then our beliefs weirdly dovetail yet again.