WILLIAMS5232 wrote:lynch5762 wrote:tkr4lf wrote:lynch5762 wrote:@ tkr4lf... My response would be that I completely disagree with you. It is my entire point that conservatism is a human instinct not a way of thinking or "antiquated" thinking as you mentioned.
Of course we don't live in tribes anymore but that is irrelevant. It is just an easy way to show an example of how people must be held accountable and contribute in a productive way in their respective civilizations or societies.. I really don't want to have a lengthy debate on this concept... just accept it as my opinion I guess.
Fair enough, if you don't want to debate it. But it's good to debate, since if your opinions can't hold up in a debate, then perhaps it's time to rethink those opinions...just my thoughts.
If you change your mind, I'd be happy to talk more about it.
I never said my opinion wouldn't hold up in a debate... I said said I didn't want to.
I don't mind a good debate every now and again but it is more of a time thing for me really.
Also, I am not sure what we would be debating. My original statement was that conservatism is a human instinct rather than a way of thinking or behaving. Obviously the word has taken on many different meanings throughout time but I am only referring to a deep down instinct that we all have inside of us as a survival mechanism. I guess if you disagree with that then their would be something to debate about.
ralf,
i'm with lynch here...
i think a person that honestly cares enough for his fellow man to help them at all costs would do it without expecting others to agree or disagree on what he/she is doing. but the ones that criticize those that do not wish to help is a different breed. there has to be some other reason why they "care" so much. i think it comes from a form of jealousy, or envy. or maybe even spite. whatever it is, i don't' put those people on such a high pedestal. if you are happy helping, then i'm happy for you.
dont' just assume i'm some asshole or the like, if you knew me in RL, you'd see that i am a helping person. it's just there are only so many people that you can help that will really make a difference. and those are the ones that i tend to focus on. giving some bum a 5 dollar bill does not help him at all. that's why i don't do it. i'm forced to help through taxes so really, as bad as i talk about folks on welfare, there's nothing more or less either of us can do but talk about it. as much as you hate me for not wanting to help, i still do, and most likely i will always continue to help people buy groceries and housing and cell phones, and other things that they dont' earn because this govt we live in will most likely never end these programs other than maybe creating stricter regulations, or taking a small amount of funding out. honestly you liberals will probably continue to get your way and force us to keep enabling lazy folks. before long, they'll be sitting at middle class status without even lifting a finger. or either the middle class will be at poverty level. whichever way the classifiacation tends to slide. it's just i believe that letting people freeload or take assistance is the worst thing that can be done. it only makes it "ok" to do. if there were a form of shame that went with it then there would be a lot more people taking care of their own business i would imagine, just think if in order to take a welfare payout you had to stand on a stage in front of all the working people that don't accept handouts, and all the rich evil ceo's that give the handouts to the govt to let them rake in the benefits of being the one's that give out the handouts. and then, for 30 minutes had to take a barrage of rotten tomatoes.....how many people would decide against it.... really, a yes or no question. would this be a better country without freeloaders?
i mean, you seem like person with reason, can you really foresee the majority of these people to ever get over the dependency that we've created for them?
First, I want to say that I'm not trying to guilt anybody into anything. I honestly don't care that much if somebody gives to charity, homeless people, etc. I figure it's a personal choice and not really any of my business. Second, I want to point out that I'm not a liberal. I do lean toward liberalism socially, but fiscally, I'm pretty conservative. I could best be described as a libertarian. Also, I want to say that I definitely don't hate you (or think you're an asshole), or anybody else for their political beliefs. I'm not like some of the people on this site, who take politics so damn seriously that they are damn near foaming at the mouth over (what they perceive as) their opposition's ideas/stances/whatever.
My point wasn't meant to attack conservatism, although (as I said in response to Lynch) I can see how it may have come off that way. My main point was about discarding left over survival instincts from our tribal era, since they aren't necessarily necessary anymore. We live in a completely different world than those humans did, yet we're still stuck with the same inner workings/instincts. It is my belief that it is a root cause of racism/sexism/etc. That they are left over instincts that should be discarded (as many people have done...unfortunately, not all have), since in our world, they are useless. (All of that can be found in my response to Lynch, so I'll move on to addressing the other stuff that you wrote.)
I honestly don't have an opinion on a person who helps out others/is charitable's motives. Whether they are seeking recognition or not, I'm not too concerned about it. I mean, it's good that they are helping out, but I tend to be a live and let live kind of guy, so I just try not to concern myself with that kind of stuff.
I understand your point about helping the people who will help themselves (to paraphrase you, anyway). I 100% agree with you on it. For an example:
A large part of my mother's family is basically white trash. All 3 of her sisters and all of their kids and their kid's kids are white trash. They live off of the government. Usually they cannot keep a job, they all have at least 3 kids, some of them as many as 5-6 kids. They collect monthly welfare checks, they get assistance with school lunches, etc. Quite frankly, I am ashamed of them. They have no aspirations in life, they have no motivation. Basically, they will still be exactly where they are in 20 years collecting money from the government, simply because they are the type of people to abuse that system, and because the government will allow it.
As a counter example...my brother and his wife had a premature baby about a year and half ago. She was something like 2-3 months premature, which usually (and in her case, definitely) translates into medical problems, often times serious. They were forced to leave their 2 other kids (my brother has 1, his wife has 1) with family, and go to the Children's Hospital about 3 hours from where they live for about 3-4 weeks. They went through every bit of their savings living down there and paying the medical bills. Now, a year and a half later, their daughter is doing somewhat well, but has some serious developmental problems, especially with her lungs. The medicine she has to take is $500 a month. Even though both my brother and his wife are employed, they simply cannot afford this due to all of their other bills. So, they have their daughter on Medicaid and she also receives SSI. This helps to pay for the medicine as well as a specialized day care that is staffed with nothing but nurses who can administer the breathing treatment, the medicine, work on speech and occupational therapy with her, everything. Without the help from the government, they absolutely could not afford this.
So, I guess my view on all of this is that people who are willing to try to help themselves deserve to be helped out. People like my brother and his wife definitely deserve the help they are getting. Without it, there is a good chance their daughter would either die, or grow up with serious developmental problems, perhaps on par with physical retardation. Plus, they are both employed, both pay their fair share of taxes...basically, they're not lazy trash that doesn't even try to better themselves. Now, those parts of my family that I discussed in the first example, they absolutely do not deserve the help they get. When they first started receiving it, perhaps they did. But after so many years of collecting this stuff and not even trying to better yourself and get to the point where you don't need the assistance any more, they should be cut off.
You mention public shaming as an effective disincentive for welfare...while I understand the reasoning behind it, and even partly agree, I doubt that would ever happen or could even be made to work. However, private shaming can easily be made to happen and, in my opinion, would have a greater effect. Like I said, I am ashamed of that part of my family, and I don't hide that fact. The only time I see them is when I got to visit my grandma, since they live where she lives. We don't talk much since they know that I will call them out on their bullshit. I may be unemployed, but there is a specific reason I am unemployed and, on top of that, I still make ends meet. I have side work that I do, I donate plasma for extra money, etc. I do not collect a cent from the government even though I probably could. I do take advantage of one government assistance program, and that is the Medical Assistance Program. The only reason I use it is because the one of the medicines I have to take is $80 just for the generic version, and that coupled with the doctor visits, is a lot more than I can pay for. I still pay money for my doctor visits and my medicine, but not as much as I would have to pay without the assistance. But you can bet your ass that once I do find employment again, I will not be using it anymore. So if I can make it happen, then I see no reason why they can't make it happen without mooching off of the government.
As you said, I think a lot of what happens is simply enabling lazy people to be even lazier. But if the alternative to that is not having any form of governmental assistance at all, then I am firmly against that. Because there are people out there who genuinely need the help and will actually use the help to better themselves and once they no longer need it, they will stop using it.
To answer your question, no, I don't see most of the people getting over the dependency that we have created for them. There is no incentive for them to do so. If the government were to change some things, then perhaps it could happen, but I don't see the government doing that. Likely it will stay the way it is until we have bankrupted ourselves, and then life will be miserable for all of us. There has to be some alternative that doesn't involve completely eliminating governmental assistance, but I don't see what it is.
Anyway, sorry to write so damn much here. But I felt like you deserved an honest explanation of my views on the matter.
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall")
ugh!) 
