Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

[Phatscotty]

Anyone who believes either of these signs has any chance of preventing this sort of a tragedy is dangerously stupid.

Well, gee whiz Woodruff. If you were a criminal about to commit some crime, which one would you choose?

If I were a criminal about to commit some crime, I would ignore both signs.

You are 100% full of shit

I guess since I live in the real world, I recognize that a sign offers zero protection for a home or business. It's a useless gesture. Yes, I am serious.

So, if you were about to commit a crime, you would hit up the place that says they have guns inside, and you would pass on the place that advertises they have no means to defend themselves from the crime you are about to commit?

You are an idiot

[Woodruff]

Anyone who believes either of these signs has any chance of preventing this sort of a tragedy is dangerously stupid.

Well, gee whiz Woodruff. If you were a criminal about to commit some crime, which one would you choose?

If I were a criminal about to commit some crime, I would ignore both signs.

You are 100% full of shit

I guess since I live in the real world, I recognize that a sign offers zero protection for a home or business. It's a useless gesture. Yes, I am serious.

So, if you were about to commit a crime, you would hit up the place that says they have guns inside, and you would pass on the place that advertises they have no means to defend themselves from the crime you are about to commit?

You are an idiot

If I were about to commit a crime, I would look at the ACTUAL deterrence features of the home or business, not the fake ones. I would suggest that a criminal that was concerned with the signs posted on the establishment is a criminal looking at a very short and ill-fated career.

So were you ever going to respond to my actual response to your actual question or did you just want to continue to pretend like it never happened?

[Juan_Bottom]

"Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. As others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn't 'too soon.' It's much too late."

Ezra Klein

[Phatscotty]

"Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. As others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn't 'too soon.' It's much too late."

Ezra Klein

This Ezra Klein? "Ezra Klein: Constitution Has No Binding Power on Anything "

[/]

The discussion that NEEDS to happen, and sadly ISN'T happening, is the discussion regarding how mental disorders are viewed in this nation. I have no idea how it is in other countries, as I have never dealt with it even while living overseas. But here in the United States, mental disorders are viewed in such a way that there is a very serious stigma associated with them. It's very counterproductive when someone can potentially lose their job for seeking help on their own from a mental health professional (and yes, this is in fact a quite common situation). It's ludicrous. THIS discussion is the one that absolutely CAN make a difference in preventing these sorts of events. Here are some important links I gleaned from another website:

http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=333
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=336
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=337

It is crazy to me that it's perfectly ok for someone with back problems to go in to a doctor and ask for (for instance) Codeine or SOMA or Flexeril yet if you are seriously depressed and have thoughts of suicide, the last thing you want to do is go in to a psychiatrist and ask for a prescription for anti-depressants. Asking for help of this nature is routinely viewed as a bad thing. That's fucked up.

Two of those links seems to be more targeted at the media, While I am in favor of public education and acceptance, I am not personally in favor of censoring art, do you believe that TV shows should be barred from using certain conditions in the portrayals of their characters in order to make people suffering from mental illnesses feel more accepted?

[Phatscotty]

[Juan_Bottom]

That doesn't make Ezra Klein's words any less true.

[codeblue1018]

Some have asked how to stop a tradegy such as this? Let's be honest, you can't. If someone wants to harm others and has the means of doing it, it will be successful. Perhaps not to the extent as today's events but clearly, death would occur. Some have mentioned the problem starts with the mental health aspect of these monsters; can't talk rational to an irrational person, period! This is abundantly true as no "normal" person would kill another especially that of innocent children.

[Woodruff]

The discussion that NEEDS to happen, and sadly ISN'T happening, is the discussion regarding how mental disorders are viewed in this nation. I have no idea how it is in other countries, as I have never dealt with it even while living overseas. But here in the United States, mental disorders are viewed in such a way that there is a very serious stigma associated with them. It's very counterproductive when someone can potentially lose their job for seeking help on their own from a mental health professional (and yes, this is in fact a quite common situation). It's ludicrous. THIS discussion is the one that absolutely CAN make a difference in preventing these sorts of events. Here are some important links I gleaned from another website:

http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=333
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=336
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=337

It is crazy to me that it's perfectly ok for someone with back problems to go in to a doctor and ask for (for instance) Codeine or SOMA or Flexeril yet if you are seriously depressed and have thoughts of suicide, the last thing you want to do is go in to a psychiatrist and ask for a prescription for anti-depressants. Asking for help of this nature is routinely viewed as a bad thing. That's fucked up.

Two of those links seems to be more targeted at the media, While I am in favor of public education and acceptance, I am not personally in favor of censoring art, do you believe that TV shows should be barred from using certain conditions in the portrayals of their characters in order to make people suffering from mental illnesses feel more accepted?

Censored/Barred? Certainly not. Encouraged? Yes, I absolutely do. I know it's an uncomfortable subject to have on television. But it really shouldn't be. And it has been done well...just not nearly often enough.

[Woodruff]

That shirt is a lie. God is not prohibited from public schools. If God doesn't believe he's allowed in schools, he's a hell of a lot weaker than he's purported ot be.

[Woodruff]

Some have asked how to stop a tradegy such as this? Let's be honest, you can't. If someone wants to harm others and has the means of doing it, it will be successful. Perhaps not to the extent as today's events but clearly, death would occur. Some have mentioned the problem starts with the mental health aspect of these monsters; can't talk rational to an irrational person, period! This is abundantly true as no "normal" person would kill another especially that of innocent children.

So you don't believe that irrational people can be aided and assisted from taking irrational actions? You believe that the mental conditions of an irrational person are unchangeable and incorrectable?

[GabonX]

I would suggest that a criminal that was concerned with the signs posted on the establishment is a criminal looking at a very short and ill-fated career.

These mass murdering spree killers tend to have very short and ill-fated careers, actually...


Our society failed these kids. There should have been an adult prepared to protect the group. PERIOD

Gratefully our country is not like Mexico where guns are illegal and similar killings are a social epidemic.

[codeblue1018]

Some have asked how to stop a tradegy such as this? Let's be honest, you can't. If someone wants to harm others and has the means of doing it, it will be successful. Perhaps not to the extent as today's events but clearly, death would occur. Some have mentioned the problem starts with the mental health aspect of these monsters; can't talk rational to an irrational person, period! This is abundantly true as no "normal" person would kill another especially that of innocent children.

So you don't believe that irrational people can be aided and assisted from taking irrational actions? You believe that the mental conditions of an irrational person are unchangeable and incorrectable?

In a lot of cases, yes. I see and deal with many "irrational" people on a daily basis mate and this is my experience. Can a person be cured of mental illness? As I'm not a doctor, I would venture to say no; their symtoms can be treated by drugs however. Does this mean that these people require constant surpervison 24/7 to ensure that their medications are taken to prevent irrational, suicidal or muderous behavior? That's not likely. I will say that people that are in mental hospitals would be far better off than the person that is on the street with no mental help.

[-Maximus-]

Answer: more guns

1 or 2 teachers needs to be trained with and entrusted with a gun, in every school.

Why the teachers? There are already security officers in the schools, who I think should be armed as a priority, not all public educators can necessarily, in my opinion be trusted with the responsibility of keeping their (speculative) on-site guns away from students.

Because then the security officer would be the first person killed. If you don't know which people in a building may be carrying a gun, then it makes the situation much more dangerous for the attacker.

Do you know why the shooter in Aurora, Colorado, picked that specific theater out of 11 in the area? It wasn't the only one doing a midnight premiere or even have the biggest theater. It also wasn't the closest to the killer's home either. But it WAS the only one to have a sign posted saying concealed guns weren't allowed. People who want to kill others go where they know they will have the least resistance possible.

That sign was a "gun buster" sign and did not meet state law to prevent conceal carry there. But i guess it worked...

[Woodruff]

I would suggest that a criminal that was concerned with the signs posted on the establishment is a criminal looking at a very short and ill-fated career.

These mass murdering spree killers tend to have very short and ill-fated careers, actually...

You may have missed it, but my statement there is in response to Phatscotty's idea that criminals (apparently of all types) would hesitate over signs.

Our society failed these kids. There should have been an adult prepared to protect the group. PERIOD
Gratefully our country is not like Mexico where guns are illegal and similar killings are a social epidemic.

I agree that guns should not be made illegal. I disagree that school shootings are a social epidemic in Mexico. I also disagree with the implication you are making that somehow having more guns in the school would prevent or make these situations less of a problem. That's certainly not a given, and ignores the other problems inherent in such an idea.

[HapSmo19]

Ok, I'm back but only for this one topic. I knew there would probably be some really good conversation here about it, and I frankly didn't want to miss that.

First of all, gun banning is just a silly and useless idea. It goes against our Constitution and I don't believe it would stop these sorts of incidents anyway.

I do believe it is reasonable to have a discussion on gun control. In fact, I don't think you can legitimately discuss this issue WITHOUT having a discussion about gun control as well.

The idea of putting more guns into the schools is the sort of insanity I could only expect from a hero-wannabe like Phatscotty. That is an idiotic idea, truly. And I'm trained in handling weapons, remember.

The discussion that NEEDS to happen, and sadly ISN'T happening, is the discussion regarding how mental disorders are viewed in this nation. I have no idea how it is in other countries, as I have never dealt with it even while living overseas. But here in the United States, mental disorders are viewed in such a way that there is a very serious stigma associated with them. It's very counterproductive when someone can potentially lose their job for seeking help on their own from a mental health professional (and yes, this is in fact a quite common situation). It's ludicrous. THIS discussion is the one that absolutely CAN make a difference in preventing these sorts of events. Here are some important links I gleaned from another website:

http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=333
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=336
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=337

It is crazy to me that it's perfectly ok for someone with back problems to go in to a doctor and ask for (for instance) Codeine or SOMA or Flexeril yet if you are seriously depressed and have thoughts of suicide, the last thing you want to do is go in to a psychiatrist and ask for a prescription for anti-depressants. Asking for help of this nature is routinely viewed as a bad thing. That's fucked up.

Just go get the help you need, dude. Losing your job is a small price to pay when it comes to the safety of the rest of us. God speed.

[Woodruff]

Some have asked how to stop a tradegy such as this? Let's be honest, you can't. If someone wants to harm others and has the means of doing it, it will be successful. Perhaps not to the extent as today's events but clearly, death would occur. Some have mentioned the problem starts with the mental health aspect of these monsters; can't talk rational to an irrational person, period! This is abundantly true as no "normal" person would kill another especially that of innocent children.

So you don't believe that irrational people can be aided and assisted from taking irrational actions? You believe that the mental conditions of an irrational person are unchangeable and incorrectable?

In a lot of cases, yes. I see and deal with many "irrational" people on a daily basis mate and this is my experience. Can a person be cured of mental illness?

Why is "cured" the standard you hold to? That seems awfully extreme.

As I'm not a doctor, I would venture to say no; their symtoms can be treated by drugs however. Does this mean that these people require constant surpervison 24/7 to ensure that their medications are taken to prevent irrational, suicidal or muderous behavior? That's not likely. I will say that people that are in mental hospitals would be far better off than the person that is on the street with no mental help.

Absolutely. But the biggest problem isn't the street-person who is mentally unstable. They are largely harmless. The serious problems are the ones who aren't quite yet as far gone but who have access to equipment and facilities that make them far more dangerous.

[Woodruff]

Ok, I'm back but only for this one topic. I knew there would probably be some really good conversation here about it, and I frankly didn't want to miss that.

First of all, gun banning is just a silly and useless idea. It goes against our Constitution and I don't believe it would stop these sorts of incidents anyway.

I do believe it is reasonable to have a discussion on gun control. In fact, I don't think you can legitimately discuss this issue WITHOUT having a discussion about gun control as well.

The idea of putting more guns into the schools is the sort of insanity I could only expect from a hero-wannabe like Phatscotty. That is an idiotic idea, truly. And I'm trained in handling weapons, remember.

The discussion that NEEDS to happen, and sadly ISN'T happening, is the discussion regarding how mental disorders are viewed in this nation. I have no idea how it is in other countries, as I have never dealt with it even while living overseas. But here in the United States, mental disorders are viewed in such a way that there is a very serious stigma associated with them. It's very counterproductive when someone can potentially lose their job for seeking help on their own from a mental health professional (and yes, this is in fact a quite common situation). It's ludicrous. THIS discussion is the one that absolutely CAN make a difference in preventing these sorts of events. Here are some important links I gleaned from another website:

http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=333
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=336
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=337

It is crazy to me that it's perfectly ok for someone with back problems to go in to a doctor and ask for (for instance) Codeine or SOMA or Flexeril yet if you are seriously depressed and have thoughts of suicide, the last thing you want to do is go in to a psychiatrist and ask for a prescription for anti-depressants. Asking for help of this nature is routinely viewed as a bad thing. That's fucked up.

Just go get the help you need, dude. Losing your job is a small price to pay when it comes to the safety of the rest of us. God speed.

Yeah, I didn't think you actually gave a f*ck about those children either.

[codeblue1018]

Some have asked how to stop a tradegy such as this? Let's be honest, you can't. If someone wants to harm others and has the means of doing it, it will be successful. Perhaps not to the extent as today's events but clearly, death would occur. Some have mentioned the problem starts with the mental health aspect of these monsters; can't talk rational to an irrational person, period! This is abundantly true as no "normal" person would kill another especially that of innocent children.

So you don't believe that irrational people can be aided and assisted from taking irrational actions? You believe that the mental conditions of an irrational person are unchangeable and incorrectable?

In a lot of cases, yes. I see and deal with many "irrational" people on a daily basis mate and this is my experience. Can a person be cured of mental illness?

Why is "cured" the standard you hold to? That seems awfully extreme.

As I'm not a doctor, I would venture to say no; their symtoms can be treated by drugs however. Does this mean that these people require constant surpervison 24/7 to ensure that their medications are taken to prevent irrational, suicidal or muderous behavior? That's not likely. I will say that people that are in mental hospitals would be far better off than the person that is on the street with no mental help.

Absolutely. But the biggest problem isn't the street-person who is mentally unstable. They are largely harmless. The serious problems are the ones who aren't quite yet as far gone but who have access to equipment and facilities that make them far more dangerous.

Agreed Woodruff. ALOT of the times, these people are sleepers in that the people closest to them weren't aware of their "extreme" issues; perhaps, minor things that they weren't or aren't concerned with. Diagnosing these types are like finding a needle in a haystack. Most times, after incidents like this, during the course of the investigation is when the investigators discover how disturbed these people really were. In this case, we will see that in the coming days. Understand also Woodruff, people must want help in order to be helped. I'm not sure that this monster A: wanted help or B: knew he needed help. This is the scary part. There are plenty more people roaming our streets with the same tendencies as this asshole had.

[Phatscotty]

Why don't we look at the places where these lunatics like Woodruff who want more gun control got what they wanted, like Chicago and Washington D.C, where guns are banned. These places where guns are banned by far have the highest homicide rates. You are more likely to be shot in Chicago than a U.S. soldier is in Afghanistan. You guys are flat out wrong, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. More gun control makes people less safe against people who don't care about the law IE criminals.

You guys just need to look at the simplest of evidence to understand, whatever it takes to break the brainwash that makes people completely stop thinking when it comes to guns.

It's the person, not the object.

[spurgistan]

So, gun violence in DC and Chicago started with gun control legislation? I've never read anything that suggested that. Interesting.
/looks up "Al Capone"
//doubletake

[Phatscotty]

So, gun violence in DC and Chicago started with gun control legislation? I've never read anything that suggested that. Interesting.
/looks up "Al Capone"
//doubletake

Guns are banned in Chicago and DC. Result: Chicago and D.C. has by far, hands down, the worst problem with gun violence.

I really can see why you don't understand, the same way I can hear you getting fatter

[spurgistan]

So, gun violence in DC and Chicago started with gun control legislation? I've never read anything that suggested that. Interesting.
/looks up "Al Capone"
//doubletake

Guns are banned in Chicago and DC. Result: Chicago and D.C. has by far, hands down, the worst problem with gun violence.

I really can see why you don't understand, the same way I can hear you getting fatter

Well, you sure made that argument easy to win. Kudos.

[Phatscotty]

So, gun violence in DC and Chicago started with gun control legislation? I've never read anything that suggested that. Interesting.
/looks up "Al Capone"
//doubletake

Guns are banned in Chicago and DC. Result: Chicago and D.C. has by far, hands down, the worst problem with gun violence.

I really can see why you don't understand, the same way I can hear you getting fatter

Well, you sure made that argument easy to win. Kudos.

Exactly. The results of gun control are crystal clear. Where gun control is implemented the most, there are more shootings than anywhere else.

[Woodruff]

Some have asked how to stop a tradegy such as this? Let's be honest, you can't. If someone wants to harm others and has the means of doing it, it will be successful. Perhaps not to the extent as today's events but clearly, death would occur. Some have mentioned the problem starts with the mental health aspect of these monsters; can't talk rational to an irrational person, period! This is abundantly true as no "normal" person would kill another especially that of innocent children.

So you don't believe that irrational people can be aided and assisted from taking irrational actions? You believe that the mental conditions of an irrational person are unchangeable and incorrectable?

In a lot of cases, yes. I see and deal with many "irrational" people on a daily basis mate and this is my experience. Can a person be cured of mental illness?

Why is "cured" the standard you hold to? That seems awfully extreme.

As I'm not a doctor, I would venture to say no; their symtoms can be treated by drugs however. Does this mean that these people require constant surpervison 24/7 to ensure that their medications are taken to prevent irrational, suicidal or muderous behavior? That's not likely. I will say that people that are in mental hospitals would be far better off than the person that is on the street with no mental help.

Absolutely. But the biggest problem isn't the street-person who is mentally unstable. They are largely harmless. The serious problems are the ones who aren't quite yet as far gone but who have access to equipment and facilities that make them far more dangerous.

Agreed Woodruff. ALOT of the times, these people are sleepers in that the people closest to them weren't aware of their "extreme" issues; perhaps, minor things that they weren't or aren't concerned with. Diagnosing these types are like finding a needle in a haystack.

That is certainly true, today. I firmly believe that doesn't have to be true, however...that's why I advocate the change of perspective regarding mental illnesses. If the stigma were removed from it, those suffering would be much more likely to come forward for help before it got past their ability to handle it themselves.

Understand also Woodruff, people must want help in order to be helped. I'm not sure that this monster A: wanted help or B: knew he needed help.

Of course it's true that we have no idea if this particular individual wnated or even knew he needed help. It's almost certainly true that there are those who are mentally ill enough to not know. Yet it's also true that people in similar circumstances do send out desperate attempts at asking for help, but do so in ways that are not at all obvious to the rest of us, though sometimes they should be. I believe that's also at least partially due to the stigma I mention, though there are other issues at play too.