Questions for Evolutionists

[Haggis_McMutton]

And Premio; I applaud you for your acute scientific mind. Great post. I'll be sure to come here often.

I'm dying from laughter. Really.

I'm sure you are. Just as I am laughing at the fact that you can't answer any of the questions posted yet have so much faith in your "Scientific Theories of life and evolution???"

Your inability to ever say "I don't know" is sad. I guess some people have to pretend they know everything.
I mean, in the end, your whole god is one big way of removing the "I don't know" associated with death. Accepting death is a difficult thing, so I can't totally blame you for clinging to childish fantasies as to avoid that difficulty.

And while we are at it, let me as a question? Suppose there was an ancient book that foretold all of earth's history in advance before any of it can to pass. Suppose that this was like a history book only of the future where everything came to pass precisely as foretold in the book.

Are we talking about Nostradamus ? or Moby Dick? http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

[BigBallinStalin]

Those first few Questions say it all, atheists deny what they deem unreasonable and then they replace it with something even more unreasonable.

Do you mean you couldn't read the whole post? I found it difficult myself, jim.
btw why the capital letter for "Questions"?

I read the whole post, I am just saying that those first few Questions some up the point. A religion is pretty much a theory on how everything came about, how the universe got here, how we got here. Citing just evolution might not have been the correct choice but say the "big Bang" ,evolution, and other Scientific theories could be categorized as a religion because they answer how everything came to be which is the point he was trying to make if I understand him correctly. I believe in my faith because of my knowledge of historical events that would be impossible to happen without a higher power, The way the world works ( Thomas Aquinas made a very good case for this in his argument from Governance of the World), and most of all my lifes experiences.

Why do I find posts like this so refreshing? Oh yeah: because these forums are infested with poopie pants posters.

Yeah, people who fail and refuse to understand the standards of objectivity between religion and science should be rewarded.

[premio53]

And Premio; I applaud you for your acute scientific mind. Great post. I'll be sure to

And while we are at it, let me as a question? Suppose there was an ancient book that foretold all of earth's history in advance before any of it can to pass. Suppose that this was like a history book only of the future where everything came to pass precisely as foretold in the book.

Are we talking about Nostradamus ? or Moby Dick? http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

Nostradamus stole his “prophecies” from the Bible. He constantly made references to wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, he speaks of “a kingdom divided,” and “the blood of the innocents,” and uses phrases such as “milk and honey,” “tribulation,” “God loosed Satan,” etc. His predictions are so generic just about any event can be seen in them after the fact! His “predictions” are no different than those found in horoscopes and tarot cards.

This is not the case with the Bible, which offers extremely detailed and precise prophecies. The sacred writings of Buddhism, Islam, Confucius among others are all missing this element. I might also add that the writings of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and other non mainstream Christian groups are littered with prophecies that never came to pass.

Contrast that with the Bible where prophecies are always fulfilled literally. The Book of Daniel was so accurate and detailed concerning the Seleucid-Ptolemaic wars that some skeptics believe it had to have been written by two Daniels, with one during the 2nd century B.C. (sometime between 175 and 164 B.C.) soon after the desecration of the sanctuary instead of 536 B.C.

Take the prophecies concerning the Jews of the dispersion. The Old Testament prophets proclaimed that one day the Jews would go back to their land never to be driven out again (cf., Isaiah 11:11,12; Amos 9:14,15). In 1948 for the first time in 2500 years Israel became a nation again.

In 1909 Scofield wrote the following in his study Bible as a footnote on Ezekiel 34:28

“The whole passage (v. 23-30) speaks of a restoration yet future, for the remnant which returned after the 70 years, and their posterity, were continually under the Gentile yoke until, in A.D. 70, they were finally driven from the land into a dispersion which still continues.”

Scofield also wrote concerning Ezekiel 38:2

“Russia and the northern powers have been the latest persecutors of dispersed Israel, and it is congruous both with divine justice and with the covenants (e.g. Gen 15:18, Deut 30:3), that destruction should fall at the climax of the last mad attempt to exterminate the remnant of Israel in Jerusalem. The whole prophecy belongs to the yet future “day of Jehovah”;

When C.I. Scofield wrote those words in 1909, he was mocked because Russia was a Christian Orthodox nation and Israel had not existed as an independent nation for over 2,000 years. Even if one biblical prediction could be explained naturally (which it can't), that would be sufficient to establish the Bible's supernatural origin. However, over 25% of the entire Bible contains specific prophecies that have been fulfilled literally. This is true of no other book in the world.

[AAFitz]

Those first few Questions say it all, atheists deny what they deem unreasonable and then they replace it with something even more unreasonable.

Do you mean you couldn't read the whole post? I found it difficult myself, jim.
btw why the capital letter for "Questions"?

I read the whole post, I am just saying that those first few Questions some up the point. A religion is pretty much a theory on how everything came about, how the universe got here, how we got here. Citing just evolution might not have been the correct choice but say the "big Bang" ,evolution, and other Scientific theories could be categorized as a religion because they answer how everything came to be which is the point he was trying to make if I understand him correctly. I believe in my faith because of my knowledge of historical events that would be impossible to happen without a higher power, The way the world works ( Thomas Aquinas made a very good case for this in his argument from Governance of the World), and most of all my lifes experiences.

Why do I find posts like this so refreshing? Oh yeah: because these forums are infested with poopie pants posters.

Yeah, people who fail and refuse to understand the standards of objectivity between religion and science should be rewarded.

Thats bullshit, science has millions of hours of research, testing, and review, and they have the Book. Its the same fucking thing!!!!!!!

[Metsfanmax]

When C.I. Scofield wrote those words in 1909, he was mocked because Russia was a Christian Orthodox nation and Israel had not existed as an independent nation for over 2,000 years. Even if one biblical prediction could be explained naturally (which it can't), that would be sufficient to establish the Bible's supernatural origin. However, over 25% of the entire Bible contains specific prophecies that have been fulfilled literally. This is true of no other book in the world.

Imagine someone came across a book, dated 1895, that predicted that in ten years, a man would come along and would shatter our long-held notions of absolute space and time.

What would be your response -- to assume that this author had incredible predictive powers, or perhaps to question the authenticity of the date in which it was ostensibly written?

[Haggis_McMutton]

Nostradamus ... constantly made references to wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, he speaks of “a kingdom divided,” and “the blood of the innocents,” and uses phrases such as “milk and honey,” “tribulation,” “God loosed Satan,” etc. His predictions are so generic just about any event can be seen in them after the fact! His “predictions” are no different than those found in horoscopes and tarot cards.

Correct.

This is not the case with the Bible, which offers extremely detailed and precise prophecies. The sacred writings of Buddhism, Islam, Confucius among others are all missing this element. I might also add that the writings of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and other non mainstream Christian groups are littered with prophecies that never came to pass.

Contrast that with the Bible where prophecies are always fulfilled literally.

Incorrect.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies

[premio53]

Nostradamus ... constantly made references to wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, he speaks of “a kingdom divided,” and “the blood of the innocents,” and uses phrases such as “milk and honey,” “tribulation,” “God loosed Satan,” etc. His predictions are so generic just about any event can be seen in them after the fact! His “predictions” are no different than those found in horoscopes and tarot cards.

Correct.

This is not the case with the Bible, which offers extremely detailed and precise prophecies. The sacred writings of Buddhism, Islam, Confucius among others are all missing this element. I might also add that the writings of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and other non mainstream Christian groups are littered with prophecies that never came to pass.

Contrast that with the Bible where prophecies are always fulfilled literally.

Incorrect.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies

Wikipedia is incorrect. Tyre was destroyed in two stages. The first stage came true when Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, besieged the mainland city of Tyre for 13 years (585-572 B.C.) and apparently destroyed it. The second stage was fulfilled in 332 B.C, when Alexander the Great besieged the island city of Tyre for seven months. He finally captured it when he built a causeway from the mainland to the island. During the Roman period Tyre was again rebuilt, eventually achieving a degree of prosperity (Acts 21:1-7).

Concerning Egypt in Ezekiel 30:3 you find the expression “the day of the Lord is near.” That is a common expression for God's judgment, especially His future judgment (cf. Joel 1:15; Zechariah 141 etc.). God's “judgment day” for Egypt included a near fulfillment in Babylon's 568/67 invasion (v. 10; 32:11), as well as the distant day of the Lord in the future tribulation period when God calls all nations to judgment (Daniel 11:42,43). That is how C.I Scofield predicted the return of the Jews to their homeland to become an independent nation again.

You can't study prophecy without studying the history of the “wandering Jew.” The were placed back into their homeland in 1948 and even though they are outnumbered 100 to 1 no power on earth will drive them out again. The are still God's chosen people and Hitler, the KKK, and all the White Supremacists running around today will not destroy them as a race.

Here is a simple quiz. Which is more complex?

1. The faces of Mt. Rushmore

2. A 747

3. Your cell phone

4. A worm

If you guessed a worm you are correct. The DNA structures, digestive system, and reproductive system are far more complex than those other things mentioned and only a fool would deny they had a designer. Name one explosion that has produced order. Big bangs cause chaos. How could a Big Bang produce roses, apple trees, fish, sunsets, hummingbirds and all we see around us? Even a child can see that there is a "grand design" in creation. I can't make you or anyone else believe that. You have a free will to believe what you will.

[qwertylpc]

Probability and time

There are 10 sextillion (this is the lower end of most estimates) stars in the universe. If the chance of having life is 1/100 quadrillion for each star then there should be 1 million places throughout the universe with life.

Probability

[premio53]

Probability and time

There are 10 sextillion (this is the lower end of most estimates) stars in the universe. If the chance of having life is 1/100 quadrillion for each star then there should be 1 million places throughout the universe with life.

Probability

Compare that to random dice. Only supersititious people believe life comes from dead matter.

[qwertylpc]

Probability and time

There are 10 sextillion (this is the lower end of most estimates) stars in the universe. If the chance of having life is 1/100 quadrillion for each star then there should be 1 million places throughout the universe with life.

Probability

Compare that to random dice. Only supersititious people believe life comes from dead matter.

What are you trying to say?

[Viceroy63]

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?

What does this mean?
the space that the universe is in is not separate from the universe. It is the universe.
If that "space" had "come from" somewhere, that somewhere would have already been the universe.

Without the universe there is no "where".

Are you envisaging a volume with no universe in it, waiting to filled with universe? And if so, why?

I truly have no idea what you are asking here.

That is precisely the point. No where is what existed before there was a universe. "Nowhere" and "Nothing!" No dimensions of anything either space or time. Einstein demonstrated that, not me.

What we think is empty space is really not empty at all but filled with particles that transcend space and time and in turn make up empty space. So where did the fabric of the universe, the empty space, come from?

If there was "Nowhere" then where did the "Big Bang" happen? This is what Science is asking. How did it come to pass that at some point in the space time continuum, There was "Nowhere" and "Nothing" and yet it somehow, all exploded?

As to the Universe being perfectly organized; How can there be some huge explosion of matter that created the Universe, the empty space and time and Matter/Energy, At temperatures so hot that apparently 13? billion years later the Universe still has temperature within the well organized galaxies and cluster of galaxies and stars.

There should not exist any galaxies at all when your think about it. Any explosion is disorder, not order. The Universe should have cooled down into nothing but dead space afterwards and not perfectly organized clusters of stars and galaxies. Yet here we are. Who wrote the rules that govern the universe? Why should there be rules in the first place.

As to combining all of these threads into one thread, I disagree. Everyone has a right to at least one thread. To deny this to anyone is just plain wrong. I don't know who suggested that? But you're wrong! Who ever you are.

And Premio; I applaud you for your acute scientific mind. Great post. I'll be sure to come here often.

So would I be correct in assuming you know who wrote the rules that govern the universe? I only ask because I haven't a clue how they came about and am quite honest and humble about this.Can I sugggest if that asssumption is correct,it is fatuous in the extreme?

It just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider. Galaxies just don't Group together after any kind of any explosion. If you don't believe me then get a grenade and use it and see how much of you clumps together from the initial impact, to land in the same place. My guess, and I could be wrong, is that you would just perhaps S-P-L-A-T-T-E-R all over the place. Those are the observable facts.

Galaxies how ever are not Splattering all over the place, they are clumping together. Even as they move or splatter apart. So how did the universal laws that govern the universe come about, get created, were written, if not for an Intelligent Designer of it all!

[chang50]

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?

What does this mean?
the space that the universe is in is not separate from the universe. It is the universe.
If that "space" had "come from" somewhere, that somewhere would have already been the universe.

Without the universe there is no "where".

Are you envisaging a volume with no universe in it, waiting to filled with universe? And if so, why?

I truly have no idea what you are asking here.

That is precisely the point. No where is what existed before there was a universe. "Nowhere" and "Nothing!" No dimensions of anything either space or time. Einstein demonstrated that, not me.

What we think is empty space is really not empty at all but filled with particles that transcend space and time and in turn make up empty space. So where did the fabric of the universe, the empty space, come from?

If there was "Nowhere" then where did the "Big Bang" happen? This is what Science is asking. How did it come to pass that at some point in the space time continuum, There was "Nowhere" and "Nothing" and yet it somehow, all exploded?

As to the Universe being perfectly organized; How can there be some huge explosion of matter that created the Universe, the empty space and time and Matter/Energy, At temperatures so hot that apparently 13? billion years later the Universe still has temperature within the well organized galaxies and cluster of galaxies and stars.

There should not exist any galaxies at all when your think about it. Any explosion is disorder, not order. The Universe should have cooled down into nothing but dead space afterwards and not perfectly organized clusters of stars and galaxies. Yet here we are. Who wrote the rules that govern the universe? Why should there be rules in the first place.

As to combining all of these threads into one thread, I disagree. Everyone has a right to at least one thread. To deny this to anyone is just plain wrong. I don't know who suggested that? But you're wrong! Who ever you are.

And Premio; I applaud you for your acute scientific mind. Great post. I'll be sure to come here often.

So would I be correct in assuming you know who wrote the rules that govern the universe? I only ask because I haven't a clue how they came about and am quite honest and humble about this.Can I sugggest if that asssumption is correct,it is fatuous in the extreme?

It just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider. Galaxies just don't Group together after any kind of any explosion. If you don't believe me then get a grenade and use it and see how much of you clumps together from the initial impact, to land in the same place. My guess, and I could be wrong, is that you would just perhaps S-P-L-A-T-T-E-R all over the place. Those are the observable facts.

Galaxies how ever are not Splattering all over the place, they are clumping together. Even as they move or splatter apart. So how did the universal laws that govern the universe come about, get created, were written, if not for an Intelligent Designer of it all!

Well I must not be thinking person then,as opposed to you who has it all worked out.There seems to me to be two possible explanations for this state of affairs.One is that you are far more intelligent,logical,perceptive,and generally favoured by your alleged God.The other is you are fatuously mistaken.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Wikipedia is incorrect. Tyre was destroyed in two stages. The first stage came true when Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, besieged the mainland city of Tyre for 13 years (585-572 B.C.) and apparently destroyed it. The second stage was fulfilled in 332 B.C, when Alexander the Great besieged the island city of Tyre for seven months. He finally captured it when he built a causeway from the mainland to the island. During the Roman period Tyre was again rebuilt, eventually achieving a degree of prosperity (Acts 21:1-7).

Here is the quote:

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]

Show me the historical documents proving that this came literally true(i.e. that Tyre was completely obliterated).

Then show me the historical documents regarding the other 20 failed prophecies described on that page.

Here is a simple quiz. Which is more complex?

1. The faces of Mt. Rushmore

2. A 747

3. Your cell phone

4. A worm

If you guessed a worm you are correct. The DNA structures, digestive system, and reproductive system are far more complex than those other things mentioned and only a fool would deny they had a designer. Name one explosion that has produced order. Big bangs cause chaos. How could a Big Bang produce roses, apple trees, fish, sunsets, hummingbirds and all we see around us? Even a child can see that there is a "grand design" in creation. I can't make you or anyone else believe that. You have a free will to believe what you will.

As always, the creationists argument is "This doesn't make intuitive sense to me therefore it isn't true".

Once more, does the general theory of relativity make intuitive sense to you? Does quantum mechanics? Does that mean they aren't true? Or do you apply this idiotic line of reasoning only in matters concerning god ?

It just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider. Galaxies just don't Group together after any kind of any explosion. If you don't believe me then get a grenade and use it and see how much of you clumps together from the initial impact, to land in the same place. My guess, and I could be wrong, is that you would just perhaps S-P-L-A-T-T-E-R all over the place. Those are the observable facts.

Galaxies how ever are not Splattering all over the place, they are clumping together. Even as they move or splatter apart. So how did the universal laws that govern the universe come about, get created, were written, if not for an Intelligent Designer of it all!

Yet again, you are saying "This doesn't make intuitive sense to me therefore it isn't true".

This really seems to be the best argument you guys can muster. Kinda like the caveman might have said 10,000 years ago

It just seems logical to any thinking person that the earth is flat. When our prey goes very far we can still see it, this would make no sense if the earth were a sphere. Also what about the animals on the other side of the sphere, are they hanging onto the sphere upside down ? And what is this sphere sitting on? How come it isn't rolling around all the time and making us fall of? It is clear as daylight that the earth is flat

[AAFitz]

it just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider.

But only because you are not a logically thinking person.

What I do find funny, in a tragic sense, is that it is so hard for you to understand such a complex universe, but believing in an infinitely more complex being, with no evidence whatsoever of such possibility, is effortless.

Further, you have not learned from the countless examples of civilizations of creating supernatural explanations when a perfectly scientific one is actually at the root, that the human mind, will obviously create fiction to understand his world, and that all such "beliefs", are suspect, and logically corrupt.

[premio53]

it just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider.

But only because you are not a logically thinking person.

What I do find funny, in a tragic sense, is that it is so hard for you to understand such a complex universe, but believing in an infinitely more complex being, with no evidence whatsoever of such possibility, is effortless.

Further, you have not learned from the countless examples of civilizations of creating supernatural explanations when a perfectly scientific one is actually at the root, that the human mind, will obviously create fiction to understand his world, and that all such "beliefs", are suspect, and logically corrupt.

You should have been a rocket scientist. You think just like one. I'm sorry. My bad. A real rocket scientist thinks just the opposite of the way you do. The world's most famous rocket scientist who was head of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, and led the development of the Saturn V booster rocket that helped land the first man on the moon stated the following in a letter to the California State Borard of Education.

"One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an order, structured plan or design...The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all it harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based." (Wernher von Braun)

[Neoteny]

He was also a Nazi party member.

[premio53]

He was also a Nazi party member.

Ex Nazi party member Einstein. Senator Robert Byrd was a former Klansman. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

[Neoteny]

He was also a Nazi party member.

Ex Nazi party member Einstein. Senator Robert Byrd was a former Klansman. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

The same thing being a rocket scientist has to do with delusions of the supernatural.

[premio53]

He was also a Nazi party member.

Ex Nazi party member Einstein. Senator Robert Byrd was a former Klansman. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

The same thing being a rocket scientist has to do with delusions of the supernatural.

You mean delusions that everything came from nothing like Richard Dawkins believes? Or someone like you who believes all the order found throughout the universe came from some giant explosion? Gotcha.

[AndyDufresne]

He was also a Nazi party member.

Ex Nazi party member Einstein. Senator Robert Byrd was a former Klansman. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

The same thing being a rocket scientist has to do with delusions of the supernatural.

You mean delusions that everything came from nothing like Richard Dawkins believes? Or someone like you who believes all the order found throughout the universe came from some giant explosion? Gotcha.

What order are you citing? I genuinely kind of curious. But only kind of.


--Andy

[premio53]

He was also a Nazi party member.

Ex Nazi party member Einstein. Senator Robert Byrd was a former Klansman. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

The same thing being a rocket scientist has to do with delusions of the supernatural.

You mean delusions that everything came from nothing like Richard Dawkins believes? Or someone like you who believes all the order found throughout the universe came from some giant explosion? Gotcha.

What order are you citing? I genuinely kind of curious. But only kind of.


--Andy

We can set our clocks by the rotation of the planets. Listen to what Stephen Hawking says.

"The universe and the laws of physics seem to have been specifically designed for us. If any one of about 40 physical qualities had more than slightly different values, life as we know it could not exist: Either atoms would not be stable, or they wouldn't form the heavier elements, or the universe would collapse before life could develop, and so on."

Even Darwin admitted that logically the universe could not have created itself.

The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God...I am aware that if we admit first cause, the mind still craves to know whence it came and how it arose."

I could go on and on with quotations from famous scientists that acknowlege a universe that has a design.

[Metsfanmax]

it just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider.

But only because you are not a logically thinking person.

What I do find funny, in a tragic sense, is that it is so hard for you to understand such a complex universe, but believing in an infinitely more complex being, with no evidence whatsoever of such possibility, is effortless.

Further, you have not learned from the countless examples of civilizations of creating supernatural explanations when a perfectly scientific one is actually at the root, that the human mind, will obviously create fiction to understand his world, and that all such "beliefs", are suspect, and logically corrupt.

You should have been a rocket scientist. You think just like one. I'm sorry. My bad. A real rocket scientist thinks just the opposite of the way you do. The world's most famous rocket scientist who was head of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, and led the development of the Saturn V booster rocket that helped land the first man on the moon stated the following in a letter to the California State Borard of Education.

"One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an order, structured plan or design...The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all it harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based." (Wernher von Braun)

When are you going to stop conflating the idea of an (intelligent) designer and the idea that evolution did not happen?

[premio53]

it just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider.

But only because you are not a logically thinking person.

What I do find funny, in a tragic sense, is that it is so hard for you to understand such a complex universe, but believing in an infinitely more complex being, with no evidence whatsoever of such possibility, is effortless.

Further, you have not learned from the countless examples of civilizations of creating supernatural explanations when a perfectly scientific one is actually at the root, that the human mind, will obviously create fiction to understand his world, and that all such "beliefs", are suspect, and logically corrupt.

You should have been a rocket scientist. You think just like one. I'm sorry. My bad. A real rocket scientist thinks just the opposite of the way you do. The world's most famous rocket scientist who was head of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, and led the development of the Saturn V booster rocket that helped land the first man on the moon stated the following in a letter to the California State Borard of Education.

"One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an order, structured plan or design...The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all it harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based." (Wernher von Braun)

When are you going to stop conflating the idea of an (intelligent) designer and the idea that evolution did not happen?

If you can't see the connection then I can't help you.

[Neoteny]

He was also a Nazi party member.

Ex Nazi party member Einstein. Senator Robert Byrd was a former Klansman. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

The same thing being a rocket scientist has to do with delusions of the supernatural.

You mean delusions that everything came from nothing like Richard Dawkins believes? Or someone like you who believes all the order found throughout the universe came from some giant explosion? Gotcha.

Your penchant for non sequitur would be astounding if I didn't think you were being intentionally dishonest.

[Metsfanmax]

it just seems so logical to any thinking person that if there is law, and order in the universe, that there must by definition be a Law giver/provider.

But only because you are not a logically thinking person.

What I do find funny, in a tragic sense, is that it is so hard for you to understand such a complex universe, but believing in an infinitely more complex being, with no evidence whatsoever of such possibility, is effortless.

Further, you have not learned from the countless examples of civilizations of creating supernatural explanations when a perfectly scientific one is actually at the root, that the human mind, will obviously create fiction to understand his world, and that all such "beliefs", are suspect, and logically corrupt.

You should have been a rocket scientist. You think just like one. I'm sorry. My bad. A real rocket scientist thinks just the opposite of the way you do. The world's most famous rocket scientist who was head of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, and led the development of the Saturn V booster rocket that helped land the first man on the moon stated the following in a letter to the California State Borard of Education.

"One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an order, structured plan or design...The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all it harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based." (Wernher von Braun)

When are you going to stop conflating the idea of an (intelligent) designer and the idea that evolution did not happen?

If you can't see the connection then I can't help you.

A great number of scientists are in the camp that some designer lent to this universe the laws that govern its evolution but did not meddle thereafter; some (though not too many) even believe in something like the Christian god. But there is no logical connection between the former belief and the idea that evolution did not happen. You can believe that the laws that govern the evolution of the universe did not come up by chance, but still believe that those rules allowed for life to come about, by chance.