Global warming.

[Snorri1234]

You must have misread my above post. C02 emissions are not the cause of global warming.

??

How can you say that they are?

Are you saying that CO2 in the atmosphere does not trap heat?

[Juan_Bottom]

Watch this movie: An Inconvenient Truth

It's a great movie which really makes you think about what is happening to the world.

It is awful. Gore lies... he lies to the people!!!

You must have misread my above post. C02 emissions are not the cause of global warming.

??

It's some type of solor process. Though it seems there is little info availiable on the web. But temps are rising all around our solor system.
CO2 is however, a greenhouse gas... which is something seperate. During a natural cycle, global warming comes first, with CO2 levels rising slowly behind it.
However, the amount of CO2 already in our atmosphere has probably lead to an early jump in this process. Which so far, appears neither bad, nor good. It seems as though it is nothing to worry about.

Not saying things are out of whack with the Earth at all, I am simply saying that the climate becomes cooler and warmer on a cyclical basis and that the cycles are so significant and compelling in both terms of timespan and irresistible-ness that our puny belching of CO2 into the atomosphere is statistically irrelevant when looking the cycles.

I think we all agree here, but are argueing anyway.

[cmckinney]

If you would bother to read my above posts, you would figure that out.

And I assume C02 wouldn't trap gas more than any other gas. And considering C02 is 2/3 oxygen...

[Snorri1234]

If you would bother to read my above posts, you would figure that out.

And I assume C02 wouldn't trap gas more than any other gas. And considering C02 is 2/3 oxygen...

Yeah....uhm oxygen would also be bad (admittedly for different reasons) if we started pumping it into the atmosphere like we do with CO2. And CO2 is not 2/3's oxygen, science does not work that way.

Regardless, this might come as a suprise to you but not every gas acts the same as every other gas. I know it's strange, but I guess that's what you learn in chemistry-class. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, it traps heat. If it didn't, we would all be dead right now.

[Simon Viavant]

It's pretty obvious at this point. Over the last 12,000 years since the last ice age, up until about 1850, going up and down but pretty much rising, temperatures rose 16 degrees farenheit. Then from 1850 to now they rose 4 degrees. So it goes form rising 1 degree in 750 years to rising 1 degree in 37.5 years. That should be pretty obvious. If it's natural, like with all planets in the solar system heating up, why has it never happened before on this scale? You guys have gone on about natural cycle. There are several cycles form 100,000 years to 10,000 years. There is no 100 year cycle. You guys have attacked Al Gore this whole thread, but you haven't really said anything about the content of the movie. Oh, and Al Gore starting the green movement is a myth. This is a debate here, but it isn't in the scientific community. The only credible scientists against global warming are those hired by the oil companies. I'd also like to know who got the great idea that they could make lots of money by starting a global warming hoax. Can you enlighten me there?

[Juan_Bottom]

It's pretty obvious at this point. Over the last 12,000 years since the last ice age, up until about 1850, going up and down but pretty much rising, temperatures rose 16 degrees farenheit. Then from 1850 to now they rose 4 degrees. So it goes form rising 1 degree in 750 years to rising 1 degree in 37.5 years. That should be pretty obvious. If it's natural, like with all planets in the solar system heating up, why has it never happened before on this scale? You guys have gone on about natural cycle. There are several cycles form 100,000 years to 10,000 years. There is no 100 year cycle. You guys have attacked Al Gore this whole thread, but you haven't really said anything about the content of the movie. Oh, and Al Gore starting the green movement is a myth. This is a debate here, but it isn't in the scientific community. The only credible scientists against global warming are those hired by the oil companies. I'd also like to know who got the great idea that they could make lots of money by starting a global warming hoax. Can you enlighten me there?

Aren't you the guy who was "enlightened" in the last Global Warming thread? Don't make me copy paste.

[Simon Viavant]

No, the last global warming thread was pretty much the same, with you guys refusing to accept evidence and attacking Al Gore and such.

[Neoteny]

Now that all the Al Gore nonsense is over with, I think I can join this discussion. For the record, I have not seen the movie, and don't care to. It's purpose was to educate people unfamiliar with science. I do not fit in with that audience.

TZOR and I killed the last thread aboot this.

Let me just say that this is the preeminent climate change thread on CC, and you two were conspicuously absent from it. Also, lol @ Nobunga.

IF you look at the relation between solar activity and global warming, the correlation is very evident. Scientists agree that the sun's activity is at a much higher level then it has been in the last 8,000 years. Coincidence? I think not.

And i love how you all ignore the points I make against you.

Ok. I will tackle your point with the following...



Yes, the sun's activity has increased rather noticeably over the past several thousand years. However, the worrisome climate change has been noted over the last thirty years. Guess what hasn't...




Oh shit, Batman! If insolation isn't having an effect, then what is, bitches?! What it is?! It must be purely coincidence!

Also note, we're in a fucking trough.

I don't want to get into that nonsense with the petitions again, but I will if I have to...

[Simon Viavant]

I tried to tell them. There's nothing natural that could make it get noticeably warmer in the last 50 years.

[Neoteny]

I tried to tell them. There's nothing natural that could make it get noticeably warmer in the last 50 years.

Hopefully the pretty picture will help.

[mpjh]

Say, I am having some trouble getting to what the disagreement is at its core. Isn't everyone on this thread accepting the fact that the earth is warming at a rate not seen in previous historical evidence? The only contention I see here is whether human activity is or is not causing the change. Am I missing the point?

[Neoteny]

Say, I am having some trouble getting to what the disagreement is at its core. Isn't everyone on this thread accepting the fact that the earth is warming at a rate not seen in previous historical evidence? The only contention I see here is whether human activity is or is not causing the change. Am I missing the point?

That is the point. That and whether we think Al Gore is t3h 1337 hax0r.

[Frigidus]

Now that all the Al Gore nonsense is over with, I think I can join this discussion. For the record, I have not seen the movie, and don't care to. It's purpose was to educate people unfamiliar with science. I do not fit in with that audience.

TZOR and I killed the last thread aboot this.

Let me just say that this is the preeminent climate change thread on CC, and you two were conspicuously absent from it. Also, lol @ Nobunga.

IF you look at the relation between solar activity and global warming, the correlation is very evident. Scientists agree that the sun's activity is at a much higher level then it has been in the last 8,000 years. Coincidence? I think not.

And i love how you all ignore the points I make against you.

Ok. I will tackle your point with the following...



Yes, the sun's activity has increased rather noticeably over the past several thousand years. However, the worrisome climate change has been noted over the last thirty years. Guess what hasn't...




Oh shit, Batman! If insolation isn't having an effect, then what is, bitches?! What it is?! It must be purely coincidence!

Also note, we're in a fucking trough.

I don't want to get into that nonsense with the petitions again, but I will if I have to...

This may very well be the best post ever, although the chart tells me about as much as it would if it were in Spanish. I am scientifically illiterate.

[Frigidus]

Also:

[Neoteny]

Also:

Very nice. To explain the graph:

Basically, shit ain't happened in da sun since '75.

[mpjh]

Does it really matter whether human activity is causing the change. If a change is occurring at a rate faster than ever historically experience, and accelerating, then isn't the real debate about what do we (humans) do in response?

[Neoteny]

Does it really matter whether human activity is causing the change. If a change is occurring at a rate faster than ever historically experience, and accelerating, then isn't the real debate about what do we (humans) do in response?

Of course. However, so many people feel this sense of, "well, if it's not my fault, and I didn't contribute to it, why should I bother trying to fix it." And if it takes a major lifestyle change, you can pretty much forget it.

[Jenos Ridan]

IS REAL!!!

Okay, let's do a poll on this shizzle. I've just read something interresting about it and wonder what the opinion of you people is.

Though I really do not, or pretend, to understand how it is happening, I know it is happening. I cannot ignore the FACT that the polar ice caps have shrunk by 50% over the last thirty years. Any one who cannot see what is staring them in the face is an idiot, no two ways about it.

When speaking of idiots, don't forget to include in that bunch, those that volunteer to be put in a little box because "something" is happening.

So, you're saying that the ice caps have not shrunk so much over so few years?

I hope that is not your intent.

The fact remains, the world is getting warmer. The question is, what the heck is causing it?! We need solid answers, not conjecture.

[got tonkaed]

While you certainly can argue effectively that is important to know what exactly is causing it in order to make some appropriate responses, it may not be as necessary as it would seem at first glance. From a simple economic standpoint it makes sense to pursue avenues that maintain our natural capital.

Considering we do not count it in the costs of doing business (and it would be difficult to do so) we are really sort of dropping the ball as far as what would best suit the interests of sustainability from a theoretical framework.

People should sort of be getting used to the idea that some changes are probably going to have to be made and beginning preparing for it, so that when everyone gets whatever definitive answer they are looking for, it just sort of happens.

[Juan_Bottom]

As far as changes go, they really aren't very drastic. Human beings are very resourceful, we are all aware of the alternatives.

Anyway...

We need solid answers, not conjecture.

The answer is solor. We all agree on that. The conjecture is wheather or not we actually should care.
But anyway, due to humans having increased actual greenhouse gases prior to the warming stage, the cycle gets to skip a step. So the actual CO2 increase that is suppose to follow, may be fairly intense. We're talking sunny skies over the UK. But that isn't for certain...
This is the stuff that hasn't happened before.

[Snorri1234]

As far as changes go, they really aren't very drastic. Human beings are very resourceful, we are all aware of the alternataves.

Yeah. We just need governments to ensure they happen. Even in Europe companies rather earn money than ensuring they will earn money in the future. I have no doubt that we'll start to seriously solve this after some time, but it's better to start now.

Anyway...

We need solid answers, not conjecture.

The answer is solor. We all agree on that.
But due to humans having increased actual greenhouse gases prior to the warming stage, the cycle gets to skip a step. So the actual CO2 increase that is suppose to follow, may be fairly intense. We're talking sunny skies over the UK. But that isn't for certain...
This is the stuff that hasn't happened before.

Indeed. The answer isn't so much the problem, the response to it is. I don't give a f*ck about what the causes are (I do, but whatever), but there are a few accurate responses we can give and the only solution is try to act against it.


Shit, even if there was no global warming, we'd still have to find better solutions to fossil fuel as it is running out.

[Juan_Bottom]

Indeed. The answer isn't so much the problem, the response to it is.

Agreed 100%

The response however, if early, is not without it's sacrifices.

Shit, even if there was no global warming, we'd still have to find better solutions to fossil fuel as it is running out.

We have.
But if we convert, we are abandoning the Mideast, and even whole chunks of South America. There has to be convergance, but to just hop to it, would destroy the economies/people of many places.

[Snorri1234]

Shit, even if there was no global warming, we'd still have to find better solutions to fossil fuel as it is running out.

We have.
But if we convert, we are abandoning the Mideast, and even whole chunks of South America. There has to be convergance, but to just hop to it, would destroy the economies/people of many places.

Well I'm not advocating a radical switch right now. But in the near future oil should play a smaller role than it does now.

[mpjh]

When was the last time you filled you gas tank?

[Juan_Bottom]

When was the last time you filled you gas tank?

2 years.