2009 Obama Stimulus Bill - do you support it or not?

[Snorri1234]

On the continent, liberalism is associated with hardline capitalism. It's only in America that through historical perversity, social-democratic and liberal ideologies have become conflated.

I must say that this has been one of the hardest things to get used to when discussing politics in the US. American liberalism is socially like normal liberalism, but fiscally liberalism has come to mean socialism and hardline capitalism has become conservatism. (Though a number of "conservatives" in the US aren't really hardline capitalist.)

[mpjh]

Snorii, you have to understand that all politicians in America are absolute opportunists, jumping on ideological horses as the moment suits them. They can do this because American voters are kept absolutely ignorant of history. We have a window to change that, but I am not hopeful. I see a bleak future.

[jbrettlip]

On the continent, liberalism is associated with hardline capitalism. It's only in America that through historical perversity, social-democratic and liberal ideologies have become conflated.

I must say that this has been one of the hardest things to get used to when discussing politics in the US. American liberalism is socially like normal liberalism, but fiscally liberalism has come to mean socialism and hardline capitalism has become conservatism. (Though a number of "conservatives" in the US aren't really hardline capitalist.)

And fags in England mean something very different in the US too.

[Snorri1234]

On the continent, liberalism is associated with hardline capitalism. It's only in America that through historical perversity, social-democratic and liberal ideologies have become conflated.

I must say that this has been one of the hardest things to get used to when discussing politics in the US. American liberalism is socially like normal liberalism, but fiscally liberalism has come to mean socialism and hardline capitalism has become conservatism. (Though a number of "conservatives" in the US aren't really hardline capitalist.)

And fags in England mean something very different in the US too.

This is not just a word-change, this is a warping of a term to confuse conversation.

[Nobunaga]

So if the cost of this Bill is going to impoverish the next generation, then why has the far greater cost of invading Iraq not already done the same

... That's a good question, though the war does not, I believe, cost as much, condidering the ongoing financial obligation taxpayers will be just subjected to exceeds the GDP of the entire world.

... But it's a good point, it's been a terribly expensive war.

...

[TotoroHat]

I did not support this bill when it was the George H.W. Bush. Bank Bailout and I do not support it now that its the Obama Stimulis Package

[jbrettlip]

George HW Bush was George Bush's father...Two different people, I get what you mean though, as I didn't either.

[PLAYER57832]

George HW Bush was George Bush's father...Two different people, I get what you mean though, as I didn't either.

Actually, the have the same name. The "W" is added to signify the second, not the first.

So, George Bush is George W. Bush's father, not the reverse. Similarly, John Adams came before John Quincy Adams

[jbrettlip]

George HW Bush was George Bush's father...Two different people, I get what you mean though, as I didn't either.

Actually, the have the same name. The "W" is added to signify the second, not the first.

So, George Bush is George W. Bush's father, not the reverse. Similarly, John Adams came before John Quincy Adams

No....George Herbert Walker Bush is the father to George W. Bush.

[luns101]

George Herbert Walker Bush is the father to George W. Bush.

I'm going to have to ask you to provide a source for that.

[jbrettlip]

What you want Maury Povich to declare he is his father?? Or do you guys REALLY not know the Former President's names???

[Juan_Bottom]

Anyone watch the O'Reilly Factor tonight? NOW Republicans are worried that the expanding worldwide bond market is going to lead to massive inflation? How far behind hte times are they? I hear about an issue with the economy and then four decades later it's on mainstream news. geez.
I also really enjoy how the Republicans are reaming the Democrats and Obama for rushing the Stimulus bill, not allowing anyone to read it, and for the bill being hugely wasteful. Everyone has alreaady forgotten about Bush's bailout...
BTW, isn't it curious how Obama has been getting everyone to be so fearful of what would happen if the bill wasn't passed immediatly... and now that it's passed he is going to wait to sign it? Really, I don't even get why he has been campaining so hard for a bill that he did not help to create. It's all weird.

It'll be cool to hear what GM and Chrysler have to say for themselves tomorrow though, aye?

[Nobunaga]

... Found this frightening reality.

"The amount of money involved [in the stimulus bill] is staggering. With 90 million tax filers who actually pay taxes, the $787 billion means the average taxpayer will pay over $8,700. By itself, adding $8,700 to the average tax bill should get everyone's attention. But that is on top of everything else that we are spending this year. ...[T]his year's deficit is already at about $1.7 trillion -- almost $19,000 per taxpayer." --economist John Lott

... So I'm guessing the bulk of folks here supporting this madness are living in part or in whole on the taxpayer dime (rendering their arguments groundless). Though there may be very few who do indeed pay taxes and see this kind of debt to government as the height of altruism.

...

[GabonX]

it's sad to say it but the only way out of this mess is to print more money. yes there will be massive inflation. no, not everyone will be able to retire on their savings but if the politicians are going to write money like this there is really no alternative.

buy gold or silver (silver is a better bet) and take your money out of whatever bank it is in, preferrably in coin form.

[InkL0sed]

Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

I won't quote everything you wrote, Nobunaga, but this part was the most chilling in my opinion. I didn't even know this had been sneaked into the bill. Assuming Obama knew this was in there, the man is shameless.

You guys do know this was conservative propaganda, right?

[Nobunaga]

Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

I won't quote everything you wrote, Nobunaga, but this part was the most chilling in my opinion. I didn't even know this had been sneaked into the bill. Assuming Obama knew this was in there, the man is shameless.

You guys do know this was conservative propaganda, right?

... The web site certainly was, but was the quote falsley attributed?

...

[InkL0sed]

Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

I won't quote everything you wrote, Nobunaga, but this part was the most chilling in my opinion. I didn't even know this had been sneaked into the bill. Assuming Obama knew this was in there, the man is shameless.

You guys do know this was conservative propaganda, right?

... The web site certainly was, but was the quote falsley attributed?

...

http://mediamatters.org/items/200902100001

[Nobunaga]

... MediaMatters is itself a propoganda machine. Anything there needs to be taken with a pound of salt.

... Oh my, where's the truth?

... Doesn't matter, really. It's law now and no amount of moaning is going to change it. Let the old folk suffer, insurance companies do, so why not government, eh?

...

[Snorri1234]

... MediaMatters is itself a propoganda machine. Anything there needs to be taken with a pound of salt.

But at least it's a propaganda machine that uses actual facts to back up it's shit.

[InkL0sed]

Yeah, um, read up on it. This story is not at all confined to Media Matters, and it's a big thing.

[InkL0sed]

Oh yes, and the pdf file provided for the stimulus IS searchable, fools.

[Nobunaga]

... Take a look at this very frightening bit o' news.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 822265.ece

...

[InkL0sed]

What's frightening about it?

[Napoleon Ier]

I still don't understand how the Keynesian multiplier (and hence this Stimulus) hold any validity given that all it entails is the transfer of money from one sector of the economy to another, in the process distorting the capital structure and Investment/Consumption ratios so as that they no longer reflect time-preferences.

[InkL0sed]

Well. An economy is healthy when money is circulating. Money is worthless if nobody uses it.