The Holocaust

[owheelj]

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

A good example of how poisonous religion is, that it makes people feel that their violent crimes against humanity are justified. The same could be said of many of the Palestinian militants and their supporters as well.

[LYR]

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

A good example of how poisonous religion is, that it makes people feel that their violent crimes against humanity are justified. The same could be said of many of the Palestinian militants and their supporters as well.

Fucking A.

[b.k. barunt]

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

A good example of how poisonous religion is, that it makes people feel that their violent crimes against humanity are justified. The same could be said of many of the Palestinian militants and their supporters as well.

With Israel, it is much more than religion - it is survival. The Jews came to Israel because they had nowhere else to go. They have been persecuted and killed for over a thousand years by the Catholic church and finally the attempted extermination by Hitler and the Nazis. They were persecuted by the Palestinians for over half a century while they were a minority in Israel, and finally they said enough. Now they are some badass mofos you don't want to f*ck with.

I love the spin that the media puts on events in the war. Have you ever seen combat? If so, were women and children combatants like in Viet Nam? Can you tell me how those Israeli tank drivers could know that those kids were throwing rocks and not thermal grenades? Oh but of course the Palestinians would never have children throwing grenades, right?

Now you say "oh yeah, the Palestinians are bad too", but you didn't start out like that. You mouth the same canned anti-semitic bullshit that the Liberal media has been spoon feeding you for years, painting Israel as the villain because they're fighting for survival against every raghead muslim for a couple thousand miles. I personally find that cowardly, which accounts for my severe case of the red ass.
Cheers.


Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

For cerealsultn: Actually there were Israelis and Palestinians living there before Britain stepped in. The Israelis were a minority then, and frequently attacked and persecuted by the Palestinians. The land didn't "belong" to the Palestinians any more than the Israelis. "War crimes"? Many more of them on the Palestinian side genius. You obviously haven't studied the history and are simply repeating what you've heard from God knows who. Big surprise.


Honibaz

Uh.. sorry, but you got quite a few facts skewed, here.

Yes, both Palestiniens and Jews lived in the there. The jews, very much in the minority, lived primarily in the towns, mostly Jerursalem. The Palestinians were spread all over and very much dominated both in terms of land occupation and population. There WERE NO "Israelis" then, only Jews. A large percentage were a historic remnant from before the Diasphora, but both Jews and Christians trickled down in small numbers from Europe, etc.

Which bring up an often ignored issue. This land was ALSO occupied by various Christian groups. And while Christians don't necessarily have the same sense of "return" and "ownership" that he Jews do, it is hardly just "any other territory" to them. The Crusades, after all, were fought by the CHRISTIANS against primarily the Moslems. (THAT is a whole topic onto itself, but this is hardly just about Jews and Palestinians!).

As for belonging? If land does not belong to people who have occupied and used it for hundreds, sometimes thousands of years, then to whom DOES it belong? Most modern cultures would dismiss a claim of people who left almost 2000 years prior. Are you perhaps asserting that the nomadic nature of many tribes means they could not "own" it. Well, Europeans certainly used that argument against Native American tribes!

The real truth is that Isreal was largely formed as a convenient "solution" to anti-semitism that was still quite prevalent, even though most stood far back from the Nazis extreme.

As for war crimes. First, what exactly SHOULD have been the Palestinian response to having thousands and thousands of people moving in to their lands -- some farmed, with orchards, etc, and some grazing lands with traditional ownerships? Sure, in some cases, Jewish settlers did buy land, but the title was not necessarily honest. In fact, the Israeli government, while holding up those Ottoman titles as justification for their purchases, has routinely dismissed virtually ALL such documents put forward by Palestinians.

The Jews faught a long, hard and VERY bloody battle to take and keep those lands that some here wish to claim were simply "purchased". Jews literally flooded the region. Even after a MASSIVE migration of Jews, they STILL only barely had a majority. The Israel borders were very conveniently set so that the Israelis got every place wehre they had a bare majority -- 51-52%. The Palestinian lands had over 90% Palestinians.

But, the real story comes afterward. Israel typically likes to say that they were invaded and the Palestinians fled. Again, what would ANY people, ANY country do when a neighbor is suddenly taken over by a powerful group, backed by even more powerful allies and makes no secret about their desire to have even more land. (STUDY what was said by policitians, etc after Israel was established). Neither side as particularly happy about the "agreements". They were essentially forced. BOTH sides felt betrayed.

But, if anybody had a real gripe, it WAS the Palestinians. Promises made to the Jews were kept, to a point. Promises made to the Arabs, particularly the Palestinians, were not kept.

Then what happened? Israel neatly occupied Palestine. There are international laws regarding occupation. Israel violated almost all of them. They did not support or offer much of anything to the indiginous population. The restrictions are multitidinal. Begin with any Palestinian that left was not allowed to return legally (with very, very, very few exceptions). That is ILLEGAL. Refugees are supposed to have right of return. Israeli settlement and expansion began almost immediately. Even within Israel, lands held by Palestinians were routinely taken, in court proceedings where virtually ALL Palestinian land claims were simply dismissed as "invalid", no matter the documentation (and yes, many did not have documentation ... they had simply lived there for generations).

Palestinian kids were treated so "well" by the Israeli goverment that almost all were/are malnurished. Take care of themselves you say? Beginning any business in occupied territories was always extremely difficult, sometimes impossible due to Iraeli policies. At the same time, Israel offers stipends and moving expenses to Jews from all over the world.

Essentially, though international law says that an occupying nation is supposed to ensure the protection of the indigenous population. Israel's policy was to make life as uncomfortable as possible without actually going into another full-scale war or encurring the wrath of the world. That last mattered to them at first, but now.. they are too powerful to bother with such concerns. Further, the rest of the world has already given them a pretty clear "pass" on anything they do in the occupied territories.

So, you grow up in a Palestinian refugee camp, watched by soldierd, not left alone, given few opportunities. What is the response? Like any society, there are some who decide "enough is enough" and take matters into their own hands. Except-- more often that not, it WAS kids/teens with stones on the Palestinian side and trained Israeli soldiers with guns on the other. Do stones harm? Absolutely? Were the soldiers just supposed to sit there? NO! But, mowing down several kids, then bulldozing entire family homes because a 14 year old dared to throw a rock .. is not considered a proportional response by any intelligent person. Sorry, it is not.

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

A good example of how poisonous religion is, that it makes people feel that their violent crimes against humanity are justified. The same could be said of many of the Palestinian militants and their supporters as well.

With Israel, it is much more than religion - it is survival. The Jews came to Israel because they had nowhere else to go. They have been persecuted and killed for over a thousand years by the Catholic church and finally the attempted extermination by Hitler and the Nazis.

Yes, Jews were persecuted, not once, but many times. Yet, they thrived. Prior to the holocaust, they were in no danger of dying off. After the holocaust, yes, they were significantly damaged. Not just in numbers, but emotionally and culturally. However, did that REALLY give them the right to simply turn around and take land from other people?

Right now, the Palestinians are much more likely to die off than the Jews were even then.

Nay, had Palestine been occupied by "nice white Protestants" or even Roman Catholics, predominantly, they would NEVER have been allowed to act as they did. It was only because the Jews, while not necessarily liked, were at least white, at least somewhat understood (as opposed to those strange people who live in tents, "like savages") AND because Europe and American held a fair measure of guilt over the Holocaust, that Jews were allowed to take the lands and establish Israel.

I hardly call racism good justification for anything, sorry.

I love the spin that the media puts on events in the war. Have you ever seen combat? If so, were women and children combatants like in Viet Nam? Can you tell me how those Israeli tank drivers could know that those kids were throwing rocks and not thermal grenades? Oh but of course the Palestinians would never have children throwing grenades, right?

First, most of the time they WERE rocks. This is documented by independent observers, former Israeli soldiers, etc. If you deny this, then you just have not studied the situation.

Were there real crimes and real terroristic acts committed by Palestinians? Yes, absolutely. Is that right? NO!, but read again what I wrote above. First, the Israelis have rejected any and all attempts by some Palestinians to live peacefully. Those who try find not friendship, but denial of permits, land siezures, etc. Or, sometimes, they get a temporary stay, but there is always the knowledge that Israel can swoop in and take whatever a family has whenever it wants. If they accuse (never mind even convicting!) even one family member, even a child or young teen of attacking Isrealis, the families' entire house can be torn down -- often before the people even have time to remove their possessions (or the soldiers don't let them remove them. You mentioned having a rather rambunctious son. Do you think US police should have torn down your house if he threw a rock?

Most of the bombers in Israel are suicide bombers. Just think about that a moment. A lot of hype is given about the "martyrdom" aspect of the "jihad". But did you ever REALLY stop to think about what would truly drive someone, a young person, to take such a step. Yes, some can get their families' payments -- all of 10,000 or $20,000 dollars. A fortune in Palestine, but .. can you imagine anyone in your family, your friend's families willing to kill themselves for even $1,000,000? Some might, but for that to happen on any large scale, things have to be pretty desperate. THAT is the side folks espousing words like you have forget.

See, its not a matter of rockets versus response. Its a matter of degrading treatment, degrading treatment, constant opportunities pulled and denied.. until people feel they have little choice BUT to respond violently. This is made worse by the fact that Hammas, despite its harsh face we see, has been truly the only real humanitarian aid agency functioning well within Palesine for years. Many a mother, faced with the choice of watching her kids starve or simply remain uneducated turns, reluctantly, to Hammas as a better alternative. Then, yes, a higher percentage of THOSE kids do grow up to be true terrorists.

EXCEPT, the ANSWER was for Israel -- yes, ISRAEL, and the US, and Europe to step in and do what Hammas was doing.

Germany KILLED 6,000,000 jews in gas chambers. THEY got the Marshall plan. Palestine got their lands stolen and any opportunities for advancement taken.

Now you say "oh yeah, the Palestinians are bad too", but you didn't start out like that. You mouth the same canned anti-semitic bullshit that the Liberal media has been spoon feeding you for years, painting Israel as the villain because they're fighting for survival against every raghead muslim for a couple thousand miles. I personally find that cowardly, which accounts for my severe case of the red ass.
Cheers.


Honibaz

LIBERAL media? Come on! You are old enough to have seen the media go from slightly conservative to almost the far right. Unless you are talking about race relations within the US. In that one area, yes, even the otherwise conservative media is fairly liberal. Seems hatred just lost its feet back there in the 70's. People realized it was pulling our country apart and that overrode a lot of other issues. In some cases, even the conservatives might have swung a bit too far in the other direction, but that is a very, very, very complicated issue and not the topic of this thread.

Understand, I am not saying that Israel should not be. Should it have happened the way it did? Almost pointless, at this point, to argue, except when folks like you want to trot out a bunch of half-truths as justification for Israel's current behavior. Israel IS here and WILL stay.

This cannot be said, sadly for the Palestinians. THEIR existance, their continuation as a people, with their own culture IS very much in question. And yes, Israel is very much to blame.

Oh.. one more note about those rockets versus Israel armies.

In that last big incident in Gaza -- 12 Israelis were killed, all soldiers. CONSERVATIVE estimates held that roughly 700 Palestinians, largely women and children were killed. ONE Israeli infant was injured (not killed). Thousands of Palestinian children were injured, many to die in the aftermath, not counted in that total of 700 deaths.

[PLAYER57832]

PS.

Before you dismiss all this as "liberal rhetoric", I assure you the facts are correct. Further, most of what I learned about Palestine & Israel came from classes in a pretty conservative Christian college.

And, finally, committing harm is one thing. Denying it keeps solutions and real healing from occuring.

Is it wrong to deny the holocaust? ABSOLUTELY?

But it is also wrong that so many around the world (ironically, fewer and fewer within Israel) completely and utterly deny that Israel committed any wrongs ... or protests that they were "only minor and just responses to Palestinian wrongs".

It is as wrong as US denial of mistreatment of Native Americans, as wrong as denial of any people who has oppressed and harmed. AND, make no mistake, the harm is not one sided.

[SultanOfSurreal]

For cerealsultn: Actually there were Israelis and Palestinians living there before Britain stepped in. The Israelis were a minority then, and frequently attacked and persecuted by the Palestinians. The land didn't "belong" to the Palestinians any more than the Israelis. "War crimes"? Many more of them on the Palestinian side genius. You obviously haven't studied the history and are simply repeating what you've heard from God knows who. Big surprise.


Honibaz

Uh.. sorry, but you got quite a few facts skewed, here.

Yes, both Palestiniens and Jews lived in the there. The jews, very much in the minority, lived primarily in the towns, mostly Jerursalem. The Palestinians were spread all over and very much dominated both in terms of land occupation and population. There WERE NO "Israelis" then, only Jews. A large percentage were a historic remnant from before the Diasphora, but both Jews and Christians trickled down in small numbers from Europe, etc.

Which bring up an often ignored issue. This land was ALSO occupied by various Christian groups. And while Christians don't necessarily have the same sense of "return" and "ownership" that he Jews do, it is hardly just "any other territory" to them. The Crusades, after all, were fought by the CHRISTIANS against primarily the Moslems. (THAT is a whole topic onto itself, but this is hardly just about Jews and Palestinians!).

As for belonging? If land does not belong to people who have occupied and used it for hundreds, sometimes thousands of years, then to whom DOES it belong? Most modern cultures would dismiss a claim of people who left almost 2000 years prior. Are you perhaps asserting that the nomadic nature of many tribes means they could not "own" it. Well, Europeans certainly used that argument against Native American tribes!

The real truth is that Isreal was largely formed as a convenient "solution" to anti-semitism that was still quite prevalent, even though most stood far back from the Nazis extreme.

As for war crimes. First, what exactly SHOULD have been the Palestinian response to having thousands and thousands of people moving in to their lands -- some farmed, with orchards, etc, and some grazing lands with traditional ownerships? Sure, in some cases, Jewish settlers did buy land, but the title was not necessarily honest. In fact, the Israeli government, while holding up those Ottoman titles as justification for their purchases, has routinely dismissed virtually ALL such documents put forward by Palestinians.

The Jews faught a long, hard and VERY bloody battle to take and keep those lands that some here wish to claim were simply "purchased". Jews literally flooded the region. Even after a MASSIVE migration of Jews, they STILL only barely had a majority. The Israel borders were very conveniently set so that the Israelis got every place wehre they had a bare majority -- 51-52%. The Palestinian lands had over 90% Palestinians.

But, the real story comes afterward. Israel typically likes to say that they were invaded and the Palestinians fled. Again, what would ANY people, ANY country do when a neighbor is suddenly taken over by a powerful group, backed by even more powerful allies and makes no secret about their desire to have even more land. (STUDY what was said by policitians, etc after Israel was established). Neither side as particularly happy about the "agreements". They were essentially forced. BOTH sides felt betrayed.

But, if anybody had a real gripe, it WAS the Palestinians. Promises made to the Jews were kept, to a point. Promises made to the Arabs, particularly the Palestinians, were not kept.

Then what happened? Israel neatly occupied Palestine. There are international laws regarding occupation. Israel violated almost all of them. They did not support or offer much of anything to the indiginous population. The restrictions are multitidinal. Begin with any Palestinian that left was not allowed to return legally (with very, very, very few exceptions). That is ILLEGAL. Refugees are supposed to have right of return. Israeli settlement and expansion began almost immediately. Even within Israel, lands held by Palestinians were routinely taken, in court proceedings where virtually ALL Palestinian land claims were simply dismissed as "invalid", no matter the documentation (and yes, many did not have documentation ... they had simply lived there for generations).

Palestinian kids were treated so "well" by the Israeli goverment that almost all were/are malnurished. Take care of themselves you say? Beginning any business in occupied territories was always extremely difficult, sometimes impossible due to Iraeli policies. At the same time, Israel offers stipends and moving expenses to Jews from all over the world.

Essentially, though international law says that an occupying nation is supposed to ensure the protection of the indigenous population. Israel's policy was to make life as uncomfortable as possible without actually going into another full-scale war or encurring the wrath of the world. That last mattered to them at first, but now.. they are too powerful to bother with such concerns. Further, the rest of the world has already given them a pretty clear "pass" on anything they do in the occupied territories.

So, you grow up in a Palestinian refugee camp, watched by soldierd, not left alone, given few opportunities. What is the response? Like any society, there are some who decide "enough is enough" and take matters into their own hands. Except-- more often that not, it WAS kids/teens with stones on the Palestinian side and trained Israeli soldiers with guns on the other. Do stones harm? Absolutely? Were the soldiers just supposed to sit there? NO! But, mowing down several kids, then bulldozing entire family homes because a 14 year old dared to throw a rock .. is not considered a proportional response by any intelligent person. Sorry, it is not.

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

A good example of how poisonous religion is, that it makes people feel that their violent crimes against humanity are justified. The same could be said of many of the Palestinian militants and their supporters as well.

With Israel, it is much more than religion - it is survival. The Jews came to Israel because they had nowhere else to go. They have been persecuted and killed for over a thousand years by the Catholic church and finally the attempted extermination by Hitler and the Nazis.

Yes, Jews were persecuted, not once, but many times. Yet, they thrived. Prior to the holocaust, they were in no danger of dying off. After the holocaust, yes, they were significantly damaged. Not just in numbers, but emotionally and culturally. However, did that REALLY give them the right to simply turn around and take land from other people?

Right now, the Palestinians are much more likely to die off than the Jews were even then.

Nay, had Palestine been occupied by "nice white Protestants" or even Roman Catholics, predominantly, they would NEVER have been allowed to act as they did. It was only because the Jews, while not necessarily liked, were at least white, at least somewhat understood (as opposed to those strange people who live in tents, "like savages") AND because Europe and American held a fair measure of guilt over the Holocaust, that Jews were allowed to take the lands and establish Israel.

I hardly call racism good justification for anything, sorry.

I love the spin that the media puts on events in the war. Have you ever seen combat? If so, were women and children combatants like in Viet Nam? Can you tell me how those Israeli tank drivers could know that those kids were throwing rocks and not thermal grenades? Oh but of course the Palestinians would never have children throwing grenades, right?

First, most of the time they WERE rocks. This is documented by independent observers, former Israeli soldiers, etc. If you deny this, then you just have not studied the situation.

Were there real crimes and real terroristic acts committed by Palestinians? Yes, absolutely. Is that right? NO!, but read again what I wrote above. First, the Israelis have rejected any and all attempts by some Palestinians to live peacefully. Those who try find not friendship, but denial of permits, land siezures, etc. Or, sometimes, they get a temporary stay, but there is always the knowledge that Israel can swoop in and take whatever a family has whenever it wants. If they accuse (never mind even convicting!) even one family member, even a child or young teen of attacking Isrealis, the families' entire house can be torn down -- often before the people even have time to remove their possessions (or the soldiers don't let them remove them. You mentioned having a rather rambunctious son. Do you think US police should have torn down your house if he threw a rock?

Most of the bombers in Israel are suicide bombers. Just think about that a moment. A lot of hype is given about the "martyrdom" aspect of the "jihad". But did you ever REALLY stop to think about what would truly drive someone, a young person, to take such a step. Yes, some can get their families' payments -- all of 10,000 or $20,000 dollars. A fortune in Palestine, but .. can you imagine anyone in your family, your friend's families willing to kill themselves for even $1,000,000? Some might, but for that to happen on any large scale, things have to be pretty desperate. THAT is the side folks espousing words like you have forget.

See, its not a matter of rockets versus response. Its a matter of degrading treatment, degrading treatment, constant opportunities pulled and denied.. until people feel they have little choice BUT to respond violently. This is made worse by the fact that Hammas, despite its harsh face we see, has been truly the only real humanitarian aid agency functioning well within Palesine for years. Many a mother, faced with the choice of watching her kids starve or simply remain uneducated turns, reluctantly, to Hammas as a better alternative. Then, yes, a higher percentage of THOSE kids do grow up to be true terrorists.

EXCEPT, the ANSWER was for Israel -- yes, ISRAEL, and the US, and Europe to step in and do what Hammas was doing.

Germany KILLED 6,000,000 jews in gas chambers. THEY got the Marshall plan. Palestine got their lands stolen and any opportunities for advancement taken.

Now you say "oh yeah, the Palestinians are bad too", but you didn't start out like that. You mouth the same canned anti-semitic bullshit that the Liberal media has been spoon feeding you for years, painting Israel as the villain because they're fighting for survival against every raghead muslim for a couple thousand miles. I personally find that cowardly, which accounts for my severe case of the red ass.
Cheers.


Honibaz

LIBERAL media? Come on! You are old enough to have seen the media go from slightly conservative to almost the far right. Unless you are talking about race relations within the US. In that one area, yes, even the otherwise conservative media is fairly liberal. Seems hatred just lost its feet back there in the 70's. People realized it was pulling our country apart and that overrode a lot of other issues. In some cases, even the conservatives might have swung a bit too far in the other direction, but that is a very, very, very complicated issue and not the topic of this thread.

Understand, I am not saying that Israel should not be. Should it have happened the way it did? Almost pointless, at this point, to argue, except when folks like you want to trot out a bunch of half-truths as justification for Israel's current behavior. Israel IS here and WILL stay.

This cannot be said, sadly for the Palestinians. THEIR existance, their continuation as a people, with their own culture IS very much in question. And yes, Israel is very much to blame.

Oh.. one more note about those rockets versus Israel armies.

In that last big incident in Gaza -- 12 Israelis were killed, all soldiers. CONSERVATIVE estimates held that roughly 700 Palestinians, largely women and children were killed. ONE Israeli infant was injured (not killed). Thousands of Palestinian children were injured, many to die in the aftermath, not counted in that total of 700 deaths.

this was a good post player but you seem to have forgotten that bk barunt is completely unteachable

ps you covered it pretty well but it deserves reiteration, the "israel is fighting for SURVIVAL" bit is such a tired and frankly enraging canard that i would really like to see it put to rest.

palestine is in no way an existential threat to israel. to suggest as much is to out yourself as an incredibly uninformed, reactionary idiot. or at least it would be, if the good doctor barunt hadn't already done that about a thousand times before this thread

[mpjh]

The Palestinians are fighting for survival.

[Simon Viavant]

.. And the land is also Palestinians. Islam and Judaism are both Abrahamic religions, and the excuse the Israelis use for having the land is the same excuse the Palestinians can use. That excuse does not allow murder of innocents and illegal settlements.

I know that, I am just telling him the excuse, in case he did not know. Not saying it is justifiable, not saying that it is not. Just saying.

And no other country does that in the whole world. The Palestinians don't weep when some of their children, women and men are killed. No, they are heartless monsters.

Good job twisting my words. All I said was that an entire nation weeps when a single soldier is captured. That is unity. I am not comparing it to other nations.

Are you guys actually saying the Israelis have a right to the land because they lived there 3000 years ago and the Palestinians took it from them? That's the most retarded thing I've heard in a while.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

I've always found it ironic that the people who deny that the holocaust occured are the most in favor of doing similar things in the present.

The irony is even deeper than that. These are the types of people who compare Israel to Nazi Germany.

If you asked the average Palestinian or Israeli Arab, they would gladly make a comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany.

Israel, unlike all Western Democracy has a ONE RELIGION STATE, that imposes their will on other citizens of that country. They build illegally on Arab lands, They arrest and detain suspects with-out evidence. Israel will bulldoze a Palestinian home, if a child from that home, happens to throw a stone at a soldier. Israel uses torture to extract information.

Of course, I could go on and on about Israel this and Israel that, but Israel ain't no Nazi country, nope. They are a Zionist country.

Beware any country that mixes religious belief with politics. Israel is no different from Iran. Both countries uses their religion to force their beliefs on their own citizens and to oppress others with different beliefs.

[PLAYER57832]

I've always found it ironic that the people who deny that the holocaust occured are the most in favor of doing similar things in the present.

The irony is even deeper than that. These are the types of people who compare Israel to Nazi Germany.

No, they are not.

While Israel did not build death camps, they have killed directly and through their policies, millions of Palestinians and while the Palestinians have taken a toll on Israel, there is no comparison in the real numbers.

Further, just looking at the bloodshed gives only a very small part of the picture. While Israel has built itself into one of the most powerful and modern nations on earth, the Palestians, whom they supposedly have ruled for the past 60 years have been left to languish in shacks, had their businesses driven to ruin, lands stolen and families split. (if a child dares to leave to go to college, get a job or any reason, they are almost always not allowed back into the Palestinian territories, despite international law mandating that occupiers allow residents to return).

All Palestinians equal Hammaas? First, it is completely wrong. HOWEVER, many of those who are more and more supportive of the PLO, Hammas, etc are so BECAUSE Israel has neglected and abused the Palestinians they have ruled for so very long. Israel may not have built ghettos, but they have treated the Palestinians as if they were in ghettos.

No, the Israelis are not Nazis. However, that is not much to brag about! The effect of the Israelis on Palestinians is, if anything, worse in the long run than what the Nazis did to the Israelis.

And, an important point. The Nazis weren't pretending to be anything other than supremacists. Sure, some now do deny the holocaust, but many more admit and embrace it. They were quite clear however, that they despised all except the Aryans. Israel pretends to be a nation only out to "protect itself", to provide a "homeland for Jews" and not a nation intent on destroying anyone.

Israel has FAR, FAR too often, tried to paint itself as the victim. THAT is a pretty big difference!

And, I don't think I am the only one who is MORE THAN TIRED of this idea that anyone who criticizes Israel is themselves an anti-semite, or worse. A nation that cannot admit its wrongs is NOT a "godly nation" ... and that goes for ANY religion!

[b.k. barunt]

For cerealsultn: Actually there were Israelis and Palestinians living there before Britain stepped in. The Israelis were a minority then, and frequently attacked and persecuted by the Palestinians. The land didn't "belong" to the Palestinians any more than the Israelis. "War crimes"? Many more of them on the Palestinian side genius. You obviously haven't studied the history and are simply repeating what you've heard from God knows who. Big surprise.


Honibaz

Uh.. sorry, but you got quite a few facts skewed, here.

Yes, both Palestiniens and Jews lived in the there. The jews, very much in the minority, lived primarily in the towns, mostly Jerursalem. The Palestinians were spread all over and very much dominated both in terms of land occupation and population. There WERE NO "Israelis" then, only Jews. A large percentage were a historic remnant from before the Diasphora, but both Jews and Christians trickled down in small numbers from Europe, etc.

Which bring up an often ignored issue. This land was ALSO occupied by various Christian groups. And while Christians don't necessarily have the same sense of "return" and "ownership" that he Jews do, it is hardly just "any other territory" to them. The Crusades, after all, were fought by the CHRISTIANS against primarily the Moslems. (THAT is a whole topic onto itself, but this is hardly just about Jews and Palestinians!).

As for belonging? If land does not belong to people who have occupied and used it for hundreds, sometimes thousands of years, then to whom DOES it belong? Most modern cultures would dismiss a claim of people who left almost 2000 years prior. Are you perhaps asserting that the nomadic nature of many tribes means they could not "own" it. Well, Europeans certainly used that argument against Native American tribes!

The real truth is that Isreal was largely formed as a convenient "solution" to anti-semitism that was still quite prevalent, even though most stood far back from the Nazis extreme.

As for war crimes. First, what exactly SHOULD have been the Palestinian response to having thousands and thousands of people moving in to their lands -- some farmed, with orchards, etc, and some grazing lands with traditional ownerships? Sure, in some cases, Jewish settlers did buy land, but the title was not necessarily honest. In fact, the Israeli government, while holding up those Ottoman titles as justification for their purchases, has routinely dismissed virtually ALL such documents put forward by Palestinians.

The Jews faught a long, hard and VERY bloody battle to take and keep those lands that some here wish to claim were simply "purchased". Jews literally flooded the region. Even after a MASSIVE migration of Jews, they STILL only barely had a majority. The Israel borders were very conveniently set so that the Israelis got every place wehre they had a bare majority -- 51-52%. The Palestinian lands had over 90% Palestinians.

But, the real story comes afterward. Israel typically likes to say that they were invaded and the Palestinians fled. Again, what would ANY people, ANY country do when a neighbor is suddenly taken over by a powerful group, backed by even more powerful allies and makes no secret about their desire to have even more land. (STUDY what was said by policitians, etc after Israel was established). Neither side as particularly happy about the "agreements". They were essentially forced. BOTH sides felt betrayed.

But, if anybody had a real gripe, it WAS the Palestinians. Promises made to the Jews were kept, to a point. Promises made to the Arabs, particularly the Palestinians, were not kept.

Then what happened? Israel neatly occupied Palestine. There are international laws regarding occupation. Israel violated almost all of them. They did not support or offer much of anything to the indiginous population. The restrictions are multitidinal. Begin with any Palestinian that left was not allowed to return legally (with very, very, very few exceptions). That is ILLEGAL. Refugees are supposed to have right of return. Israeli settlement and expansion began almost immediately. Even within Israel, lands held by Palestinians were routinely taken, in court proceedings where virtually ALL Palestinian land claims were simply dismissed as "invalid", no matter the documentation (and yes, many did not have documentation ... they had simply lived there for generations).

Palestinian kids were treated so "well" by the Israeli goverment that almost all were/are malnurished. Take care of themselves you say? Beginning any business in occupied territories was always extremely difficult, sometimes impossible due to Iraeli policies. At the same time, Israel offers stipends and moving expenses to Jews from all over the world.

Essentially, though international law says that an occupying nation is supposed to ensure the protection of the indigenous population. Israel's policy was to make life as uncomfortable as possible without actually going into another full-scale war or encurring the wrath of the world. That last mattered to them at first, but now.. they are too powerful to bother with such concerns. Further, the rest of the world has already given them a pretty clear "pass" on anything they do in the occupied territories.

So, you grow up in a Palestinian refugee camp, watched by soldierd, not left alone, given few opportunities. What is the response? Like any society, there are some who decide "enough is enough" and take matters into their own hands. Except-- more often that not, it WAS kids/teens with stones on the Palestinian side and trained Israeli soldiers with guns on the other. Do stones harm? Absolutely? Were the soldiers just supposed to sit there? NO! But, mowing down several kids, then bulldozing entire family homes because a 14 year old dared to throw a rock .. is not considered a proportional response by any intelligent person. Sorry, it is not.

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

A good example of how poisonous religion is, that it makes people feel that their violent crimes against humanity are justified. The same could be said of many of the Palestinian militants and their supporters as well.

With Israel, it is much more than religion - it is survival. The Jews came to Israel because they had nowhere else to go. They have been persecuted and killed for over a thousand years by the Catholic church and finally the attempted extermination by Hitler and the Nazis.

Yes, Jews were persecuted, not once, but many times. Yet, they thrived. Prior to the holocaust, they were in no danger of dying off. After the holocaust, yes, they were significantly damaged. Not just in numbers, but emotionally and culturally. However, did that REALLY give them the right to simply turn around and take land from other people?

Right now, the Palestinians are much more likely to die off than the Jews were even then.

Nay, had Palestine been occupied by "nice white Protestants" or even Roman Catholics, predominantly, they would NEVER have been allowed to act as they did. It was only because the Jews, while not necessarily liked, were at least white, at least somewhat understood (as opposed to those strange people who live in tents, "like savages") AND because Europe and American held a fair measure of guilt over the Holocaust, that Jews were allowed to take the lands and establish Israel.

I hardly call racism good justification for anything, sorry.

I love the spin that the media puts on events in the war. Have you ever seen combat? If so, were women and children combatants like in Viet Nam? Can you tell me how those Israeli tank drivers could know that those kids were throwing rocks and not thermal grenades? Oh but of course the Palestinians would never have children throwing grenades, right?

First, most of the time they WERE rocks. This is documented by independent observers, former Israeli soldiers, etc. If you deny this, then you just have not studied the situation.

Were there real crimes and real terroristic acts committed by Palestinians? Yes, absolutely. Is that right? NO!, but read again what I wrote above. First, the Israelis have rejected any and all attempts by some Palestinians to live peacefully. Those who try find not friendship, but denial of permits, land siezures, etc. Or, sometimes, they get a temporary stay, but there is always the knowledge that Israel can swoop in and take whatever a family has whenever it wants. If they accuse (never mind even convicting!) even one family member, even a child or young teen of attacking Isrealis, the families' entire house can be torn down -- often before the people even have time to remove their possessions (or the soldiers don't let them remove them. You mentioned having a rather rambunctious son. Do you think US police should have torn down your house if he threw a rock?

Most of the bombers in Israel are suicide bombers. Just think about that a moment. A lot of hype is given about the "martyrdom" aspect of the "jihad". But did you ever REALLY stop to think about what would truly drive someone, a young person, to take such a step. Yes, some can get their families' payments -- all of 10,000 or $20,000 dollars. A fortune in Palestine, but .. can you imagine anyone in your family, your friend's families willing to kill themselves for even $1,000,000? Some might, but for that to happen on any large scale, things have to be pretty desperate. THAT is the side folks espousing words like you have forget.

See, its not a matter of rockets versus response. Its a matter of degrading treatment, degrading treatment, constant opportunities pulled and denied.. until people feel they have little choice BUT to respond violently. This is made worse by the fact that Hammas, despite its harsh face we see, has been truly the only real humanitarian aid agency functioning well within Palesine for years. Many a mother, faced with the choice of watching her kids starve or simply remain uneducated turns, reluctantly, to Hammas as a better alternative. Then, yes, a higher percentage of THOSE kids do grow up to be true terrorists.

EXCEPT, the ANSWER was for Israel -- yes, ISRAEL, and the US, and Europe to step in and do what Hammas was doing.

Germany KILLED 6,000,000 jews in gas chambers. THEY got the Marshall plan. Palestine got their lands stolen and any opportunities for advancement taken.

Now you say "oh yeah, the Palestinians are bad too", but you didn't start out like that. You mouth the same canned anti-semitic bullshit that the Liberal media has been spoon feeding you for years, painting Israel as the villain because they're fighting for survival against every raghead muslim for a couple thousand miles. I personally find that cowardly, which accounts for my severe case of the red ass.
Cheers.


Honibaz

LIBERAL media? Come on! You are old enough to have seen the media go from slightly conservative to almost the far right. Unless you are talking about race relations within the US. In that one area, yes, even the otherwise conservative media is fairly liberal. Seems hatred just lost its feet back there in the 70's. People realized it was pulling our country apart and that overrode a lot of other issues. In some cases, even the conservatives might have swung a bit too far in the other direction, but that is a very, very, very complicated issue and not the topic of this thread.

Understand, I am not saying that Israel should not be. Should it have happened the way it did? Almost pointless, at this point, to argue, except when folks like you want to trot out a bunch of half-truths as justification for Israel's current behavior. Israel IS here and WILL stay.

This cannot be said, sadly for the Palestinians. THEIR existance, their continuation as a people, with their own culture IS very much in question. And yes, Israel is very much to blame.

Oh.. one more note about those rockets versus Israel armies.

In that last big incident in Gaza -- 12 Israelis were killed, all soldiers. CONSERVATIVE estimates held that roughly 700 Palestinians, largely women and children were killed. ONE Israeli infant was injured (not killed). Thousands of Palestinian children were injured, many to die in the aftermath, not counted in that total of 700 deaths.

this was a good post player but you seem to have forgotten that bk barunt is completely unteachable

ps you covered it pretty well but it deserves reiteration, the "israel is fighting for SURVIVAL" bit is such a tired and frankly enraging canard that i would really like to see it put to rest.

palestine is in no way an existential threat to israel. to suggest as much is to out yourself as an incredibly uninformed, reactionary idiot. or at least it would be, if the good doctor barunt hadn't already done that about a thousand times before this thread

As much as i hate the habit some people have of taking half a page for a long ass quote, this one just has to be viewed again for the sake of comedy relief.

First we have Player with a rather long (sorry Player, too long to reply to in one post) but well thought out post, then we have our masterofthehissyfit cerealsultan quoting it all with a "metoo" at the end. This prancing poof boy is now "frankly enraged" at the thought of Israel fighting for survival, and probably thinks that the six day war was a miniseries on TV.

"Palestine is in no way an existential threat to Israel" - the clue here is the "existential" part - whatthefuck does "existential" have to do with the context here? Just say "a threat to Israel" without the failed attempt at literacy. Do you have any idea how affected and phony you appear to others? Evidently not.

Palestine is a self confessed threat - existentially, metaphorically, posilutely, bombyourkidsintheirclassroom, catchyouwithsomeC-4atthebusstop to Israel. To suggest that someone crazy enough to attack tanks with rocks is not a threat is to suggest that a sputtering poguish flit such as yourself would even be familiar with a simple fistfight. You have no business discussing such things and should content yourself with gossiping with the metros at the hair salon. Poof.


Honibaz

[SultanOfSurreal]

"Palestine is in no way an existential threat to Israel" - the clue here is the "existential" part - whatthefuck does "existential" have to do with the context here? Just say "a threat to Israel" without the failed attempt at literacy. Do you have any idea how affected and phony you appear to others? Evidently not.

Palestine is a self confessed threat - existentially, metaphorically, posilutely, bombyourkidsintheirclassroom, catchyouwithsomeC-4atthebusstop to Israel. To suggest that someone crazy enough to attack tanks with rocks is not a threat is to suggest that a sputtering poguish flit such as yourself would even be familiar with a simple fistfight. You have no business discussing such things and should content yourself with gossiping with the metros at the hair salon. Poof.


Honibaz

i'm sorry that you are incapable of understanding words with more than two syllables, but that is no reason to yell at me

To suggest that someone crazy enough to attack tanks with rocks is not a threat is to suggest that a sputtering poguish flit such as yourself would even be familiar with a simple fistfight.

so wait, you're saying that kids with rocks are a genuine threat to trained soldiers in tanks

l.m.a.o

[THE ARMY]

Anyone who doesn't believe the Holocaust is obviously mentally retarded and shouldn't drive cars or operate machinery

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Anyone who doesn't believe the Holocaust is obviously mentally retarded and shouldn't drive cars or operate machinery

How about operating ovens?

[TheProwler]

<uncomfortable silence>

[jonesthecurl]

Ignore who?

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Ignore who?

Jones, this ain't the "Last word thread."

[PLAYER57832]

this was a good post player but you seem to have forgotten that bk barunt is completely unteachable

Though I disagree with bk barunt on may issues, I don't find him completely closed minded. I do find that he has a range of experiences and education so that there are few things he has not already considered.

On this one, I must say I was rather taken aback by his vehemence, but ... we all have our ideas.

[PLAYER57832]

defeating someone in a war they started

yes those goddamn palestinians, how dare they not step aside and let the israelis take their land and commit war crimes against them with impunity

Commit war crimes? If Israel has committed war crimes, then almost every government in the world is guilty of war crimes (which they are). So....

Not since the idea has been defined. Most particularly, if any nation has reason to understand that harm and danger in even relatively minor persecution (and what the Palestinians have experienced is not minor), it would be the Jews who settled Israel. Understanding, they have no excuse for doing the same to others.

#1: Why should Israel be persecuted when other countries are not?

Persecuted?

The question is why is it OK to persecute the Palestinians. Look at Israel. They have gone from being a poor nation with few attributes to a modern industrial nation. Its citizens get free medical care, immigrants get stipends to help them adjust. Palestinians, who by law were to have been treated with respect and dignity get relegated to slums. And, often they are not even allowed to keep those.

#2: Israel is the most humane army in the world. It is one of only two countries to have their army abide by a code of ethics.

Then you will have to explain why so many Israelis are outright refusing service in the West Bank or are refusing to obey orders to do things like demolish Palestinian houses. The army does what the country asks. The country wants the Palestinians not simply defeated, but extinguished and removed so they can have the entire area, all of Jerusalem to themselves.

And.. you have to wonder, if they can treat Muslims thus, then what is to stop them from doing so to Christian holy sites.


I have talked with numerous ex-Israeli soldiers who have told stories about abandoning missions to preserve NON-ISRAELI human life.

Do you know why Israel sent ground troops into Gaza several months ago? They could have completely demolished Gaza with superior air power, but they send in ground troops because air strikes are not always completely accurate. They sent in troops so they could preserve the lives of civilians who probably want to kill them.

The confirmed, conservative estimates indicate over 700 Palestinians, mostly women and children, killed. The Israelis? Lost 12 -- all SOLDIERS.

What was that story in Iraq, about the U.S. flattening several square blocks of some Iraqi city (probably Baghdad, but I am not sure) just so they could kill Hussein, just to learn that he had already left the area?

We did not kill anything close to 700 people and we were still roundly criticized. Nice try, but get your facts in perspective before you jump on a bandwagon.

This is of course not to mention all the things Palestinians have done to Israeli soldiers, civilians, etc. If you could give me one war that Israel fought in where they were they were not provoked, then you would be correct in your assumptions that Israel has committed "war crimes." Otherwise, lay off. Israel has enough problems already without being accused of committing war crimes.

One war? How about the establishment of Israel. It was not Jewish land. Some lands were bought, but often under pretty suspicious circumstances. Much other land was not bought, it was simply taken. Although Israel likes to proclaim that they "did not start" the war after Israel was established, many sources indicate that they did, in fact do so.

The US might have done wrong in taking over Hawaii, etc. However, the people there are living decently. Even our ENEMIES i World War II were treated FAR better than the Palestinians whom Israel was supposed to be protecting -- or didn't you know that is the responsibility of an occupying nation? To protect the local population, not eradicate them, not displace them so you have room for the millions of immigrants you choose to invite and support.

Ask yourself this. Do you think the Palestinian kids are stupid? Do you think they REALLY don't know that serious consequences will follow if they take action against the soldiers? Why then do they do it? Some are certainly just "hoodlums". Except .. in most modern societies we don't tear down the home of 20-30 people because a kid threw a rock. Israel does.

AND, think why would so many, not just a few on the fringes, do such things if Israel were treating them so nicely, as you wish to proclaim. Its because Israel has left them so few options, so little chance of hope and opportunity that they simply don't care any more. When a child is abused, we blame the abuser, not the child. Israel has abused generations of Palestinian children. And the only way for you to deny that is if you have not truly looked into the situation at all.

[pimpdave]

Ignore who?

Jones, this ain't the "Last word thread."

IT IS NOW

[PLAYER57832]

Good job twisting my words. All I said was that an entire nation weeps when a single soldier is captured. That is unity. I am not comparing it to other nations.

And that mentality -- that is US against them is very much a BIG part of the problem.

See, here is the thing. Legally, as long as they occupied Palestine, Palestine was, is a part of Israel. Either you accept and admit an occupied territory or you let them go on their own. Israel turned Palestine into a fragmented land that cannot even function with practicality as a nation. It has ousted millions of Palestinians -- those who just left for school or work, not simply terrorists, and welcomed in foreigners who happened to be Jewish from all around the world. Not only welcomed, but ASKED, even PAID them to come ..and take lands the Palestinians always considered theirs with no more regard than if they were simply ousting a few rabbits and sheep.


And THEN they turn around and wonder why Palestinians don't particularly like them!

The definition of a jerk, when it comes to people is someone who thinks there is one set of rules for themselves and another set for everyone else. Israel has acted QUITE the jerk!

[cyrenius]

A long time ago, people thought that the erth was flat.It was a fact , every one new it.An everyone who said otherwise it was labeld as heretic.
A simple fact.I am for Romania.During the war we allied whit germany.We had no choise.It was either that either the red army.
The romanian jews said that during the war 400.000 romanian jews were killed.The only problem that in that period were only 170.000 jews in romania.And they were deported in a region near russia along whit the comunists and other political prisoners. There they were living in abandoned houses or in villages along whit local peasants, from where they fleed to other coutries or back to romania.There was some killing but it was a lot less then they said, hundredths not thousands of hundredths.
You also have to know that Israel recived compensations from germany for the executed jews.I thing but not sure, 1000 $/person. So the biger is the number of victims the thicker the pile of money.
Always follow the money

[LYR]

A long time ago, people thought that the erth was flat.It was a fact , every one new it.An everyone who said otherwise it was labeld as heretic.
A simple fact.I am for Romania.During the war we allied whit germany.We had no choise.It was either that either the red army.
The romanian jews said that during the war 400.000 romanian jews were killed.The only problem that in that period were only 170.000 jews in romania.And they were deported in a region near russia along whit the comunists and other political prisoners. There they were living in abandoned houses or in villages along whit local peasants, from where they fleed to other coutries or back to romania.There was some killing but it was a lot less then they said, hundredths not thousands of hundredths.
You also have to know that Israel recived compensations from germany for the executed jews.I thing but not sure, 1000 $/person. So the biger is the number of victims the thicker the pile of money.
Always follow the money

http://history1900s.about.com/library/h ... bldied.htm


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... uest1.html

5. How many Jews were murdered in each country and what percentage of the pre-war Jewish population did they constitute?


Answer: (Source: Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)
Austria 50,000 -- 27.0%
Italy 7,680 -- 17.3%
Belgium 28,900 -- 44.0%
Latvia 71,500 -- 78.1%
Bohemia/Moravia 78,150 -- 66.1%
Lithuania 143,000 -- 85.1%
Bulgaria 0 -- 0.0%
Luxembourg 1,950 -- 55.7%
Denmark 60 -- 0.7%
Netherlands 100,000 -- 71.4%
Estonia 2,000 -- 44.4%
Norway 762 -- 44.8%
Finland 7 -- 0.3%
Poland 3,000,000 -- 90.9%
France 77,320 -- 22.1%
Romania 287,000 -- 47.1%
Germany 141,500 -- 25.0%
Slovakia 71,000 -- 79.8%
Greece 67,000 -- 86.6%
Soviet Union 1,100,000 -- 36.4%
Hungary 569,000 -- 69.0%
Yugoslavia 63,300 -- 81.2%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

Country ↓ Estimated Pre-War Jewish population ↓ Estimated Jewish population annihilated ↓ Percent killed ↓
Poland 3,300,000 3,000,000 90
Baltic countries 253,000 228,000 90
Germany & Austria 240,000 210,000 90
Bohemia & Moravia 90,000 80,000 89
Slovakia 90,000 75,000 83
Greece 70,000 54,000 77
Netherlands 140,000 105,000 75
Hungary 650,000 450,000 70
Byelorussian SSR 375,000 245,000 65
Ukrainian SSR 1,500,000 900,000 60
Belgium 65,000 40,000 60
Yugoslavia 43,000 26,000 60
Romania 600,000 300,000 50
Norway 2,173 890 41
France 350,000 90,000 26
Bulgaria 64,000 14,000 22
Italy 40,000 8,000 20
Luxembourg 5,000 1,000 20
Russian SFSR 975,000 107,000 11
Denmark 8,000 52 <1
Finland 2,000 22 <1
Total 8,861,800 5,933,900 67

[LYR]

A long time ago, people thought that the erth was flat.It was a fact , every one new it.An everyone who said otherwise it was labeld as heretic.
A simple fact.I am for Romania.During the war we allied whit germany.We had no choise.It was either that either the red army.
The romanian jews said that during the war 400.000 romanian jews were killed.The only problem that in that period were only 170.000 jews in romania.And they were deported in a region near russia along whit the comunists and other political prisoners. There they were living in abandoned houses or in villages along whit local peasants, from where they fleed to other coutries or back to romania.There was some killing but it was a lot less then they said, hundredths not thousands of hundredths.
You also have to know that Israel recived compensations from germany for the executed jews.I thing but not sure, 1000 $/person. So the biger is the number of victims the thicker the pile of money.
Always follow the money

Do they teach you that in school, or is that common belief?

[cyrenius]

This mather was in the media for a wile in Romania.The jewes comunity came whit the figure of 400.000 victims, and they intended to claim damages .The figuere 170.000was brought up based on romanian archives.I will searche the exact source's and get back to you.

And to answer your question, they didn't teach about that anithing in school back in the late 90's, and I don't know how i goes elswere, but here in Romania the common belief is what they show on TV and wright in the newspaper.