thegreekdog wrote:Neoteny wrote:The Pledge of Allegience (with or without god) should not be mandated because I don't see an applicable purpose for doing so other than for purposes of brute nationalism. I can do without that I think. Is that inconsistent, you think?
I kind of think that's inconsistent considering you are in favor of indoctrinating children to being open to homosexuals. Why not indoctrinate children to having an allegiance to their country?
I've always recited the pledge of allegiance, stood at baseball games for the national anthem, etc., etc. From a "it's perfectly within your rights, though I think you're being ridiculous" standpoint, I have no problem with people sitting for the national anthem or not reciting the pledge of allegiance. I also have no problem with teaching kids that homosexuality is okay in school. However, I also don't have a problem with Mary Sue being excused from class (and not failing) because her parents don't want her to be taught that homosexuality is okay.
thegreekdog wrote:I don't mind inconsistencies either, generally. I have no problem with neoteny supporting homosexuality in school and not standing for the pledge of allegenice. What I do mind is when someone ridicules (too strong a word?) someone else for their beliefs while engaging in the same sort of activities with respect to their own beliefs; this is the type of hypocrisy that drives me nuts. Like the person who is vehemently pro-life when it comes to abortion and ridicules those that have abortions but is vehemently pro death penalty. Or the person who vehemently argues for homosexuality to be taught in schools because it's the best thing for the children, but doesn't want the same school to mandate standing for the pledge of allegiance. Annoys the hell out of me.
I suppose I justify my mandating the "respect for others" business (in my defense, we haven't really defined what that would entail other than Gabon's paranoid shrieks) but not the "reciting the pledge" business as a manner of degree. The ability to discern and respect human rights is more important (having trouble avoiding the subjective here) than the ability to instill nationalism in our children. I'll concede that others may rank those differently, but I have trouble justifying putting our state (which is plenty strong nationalistically anyhow) over our own rights as protected by the state.
Anyhow, to use Gabon's type of question, isn't it the parents' responsibility to instill nationalism in our children? We are going to mandate many things and we are going to avoid many others in our schools. I find it difficult to comprehend that discussion on human rights should not be mandated in our schools (considering it already is on many counts, so there is something to be said about that) and that this is being compared to mandating a nationalistic chant. Like I said, it's a matter of degree for me.
pimpdave wrote:So, come on Neo, you want them to miss out on that? Really?
Don't get me wrong, I've had fun with the pledge, but I'm trying to be serious here. There's plenty going on in there to enjoy.
GabonX wrote:Neoteny wrote:What basic human right is being violated by teaching our children not to unfairly discriminate? You've already stated that the right to freedom of religion is barely, if that, applicable, and likely not to succeed. Can you think of any others?
I get sick of it when I ask a question, the person cannot answer it, and then goes on to ask another question which I go on to answer.
I felt that tonka answered your question appropriately. I'd hate to be accused of simplifying someone else's answer when it's clear I won't be adding much to the conversation.
GabonX wrote:It is arguably a violation of people's religion. It's not the role of government to instill other people's values into someone else's children while a political debate is still going on.
Respect for human rights are someone else's values? I wouldn't be admitting such a thing so openly...
GabonX wrote:Also, gays are not discriminated against in our country. They have the exact same rights as everyone else.
Except for marriage and adoption and... do we really want to go into this again?
