CrazyAnglican wrote:Hi Neo,
Kudo’s on the subtle shift away from an untenable situation. We were talking about the possible reasons why God does not act, and I made the perfectly reasonable statement that my suppositions are as valid as anyone else’s in this regard. Then, you come back with an indictment of Christianity as encouraging apathy and laziness? On what grounds,
merely because you suppose belief in an afterlife would do that? It is absolutely asinine to think that you (without even knowing a great number of us) can sit in judgment of our moral character simply because we believe in an afterlife. Did it occur to you that given the many exhortations, in the
Holy Bible and from Christ himself, to give alms and be charitable that believing in an afterlife would have the opposite effect rather than the one that you suggest? Not “There, there it will be alright once you die” (Seriously, who exactly do you think believes that?), but “I have to love my neighbor in order to reach that afterlife anyway”. Even this innocuous statement isn't correct among Christians, who instead are encouraged to the belief that "I must love my neighbor because it is God's will and Christ's command". Do you have any evidence to support your claim?
If you can, please cite anything from an actual Christian document to support your supposition other than mere conjecture and anecdote (Yes, I’ve met some atheists who were miserable misanthropes, thankfully they are the minority on both sides, it really doesn’t prove that atheism or Christianity themselves encourage this).
To post a picture of a scene of misery and suggest that your opposition feels no pity for the individual is nothing short of an attempt to dehumanize them, and that my friend is disgusting.
I’m not claiming superior moral character to anyone. If atheism drives you with a sense of urgency to go out and help your fellow man, that’s great by all means remain an atheist. I’ve said many times I’m not out to convert anyone anyway. There are arguments, even among atheists (see below), which point to the great amount of aid that goes to others through Christian charities though. It is inescapable to conclude from this that the many churches and religiously affiliated charities are helping others on as great a scale as possible everyday. The person I quoted goes on to speak of great charity on the part of individual atheists. It might seem odd that I've quoted him, but
I do not deny the charity atheists; I'm just wondering why you would deny the charity of Christians.“While these criticisms are usually made without any shred of substantiation, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if a study were to be done that found that religious believers, on average, do perform more charity work than atheists. If such a thing were found, I would expect that it isn't because religion makes people morally better than atheism. Rather, it would be because churches often organize charitable activities and exhort their members to participate, while atheists, as of yet, have no comparable social structure. Such a finding could be explained not by superior moral sentiment among churchgoers, but simply by increased opportunity.” (
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/ ... arity.html)
You’ve walked out on a metaphorical limb here, the same limb that the above author does.
Do you really know the motives for another person’s gift, even one other person’s gift? How then could you know the motives for gifts from millions of others? Your argument seems to be an attempt to state that you feel more deeply the suffering of others than those who believe in an afterlife. I suppose that you think it is true, but you can never really have any idea how keenly others feel that empathy as well. You can only observe what charitable actions they take. A forthright observation of this subject could only show that Christians, in general, are very charitable. It is easy enough to Google "Christian Charities", as a start, and see what you find there.
No holds barred, eh? First of all, your first paragraph implies that your assertion of equal validity was equal to any other led me to the suffering spiel that I flew off on. That's not the case whether you intended to make that point or not. I was referring to your "gain more for having suffered" quote. From there, I jumped on the opportunity to espouse my opinion that a number of Christians feel that way about suffering, and I know they do because they have said it. I can't give you any evidence other than anecdotal, but I know on one occasion my preacher (long story) said it. And now I guess I have to explain it as well as I should have in the original post.
I really hope you do not stand by your quote. There is a big difference between suffering and misfortune. Any implication that suffering can be good for someone is disgusting. I will not rescind that statement, and, again, I really hope you didn't intend it that way. If you did, then regardless of any belief system, charitable inclinations, or humanitarianism you claim, you hold a disgusting, to me and I'm sure others, belief.
I was not judging your moral character on the basis of your belief in the afterlife. I was expressing my opinion that the reason this idea has risen to more than just one or two loonys is due to a belief in the afterlife. It was an opinion, and one that I'm not sure I can defend with references. However, the only people I know who hold that concept to be true are religious.
The picture was shock tactics; I'll admit to that.
It is a striking image though, and one that should be seen.
I'm not saying you are not a moral person, and I've read my Christ, I agree with most of his opinions on morality. And I will say that, having been raised by Christians in the presence of mostly Christians, that they, for the most part, are not lacking in the same moral fibers that I possess.
I can't, for the life of me, figure out why Christians are so afraid to die. Maybe you can answer that one for me.
I was not implying that my opposition couldn't feel pity. Of course you do. I posted a picture to make a point by playing to the heart (which is a common Christian conversion tactic actually) expecting you to feel pity, and I apolgize for any dehumanization I may have caused.
Yes, Christian charity is a good virtue. It is probably the one I respect them most for. I do often question why they do it, but the ends in this case justify the means. Regardless, my rant was one of making a point, and I was not trying to accuse anyone here of anything.
Except for your suffering quote.
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I wasn't nearly as indignant as I must have sounded 
