Americans

[Iz Man]

*sigh*

Like I said earlier, I don't believe I could sway your beliefs, and I'm sure you believe you won't sway mine.

I never equated the Muslim populace to their regimes (the crocodiles). They are being held captive by them.

But to equate the radical regime in Iran to the U.S. is preposturous.

Can women vote in Iran?
Does the U.S. perform public stonings?
Oh, here's a good one:
Massoud Osanlou, the leader of the bus driver's union in Iran, was arrested and had his tongue cut out for speaking out against the regime.
Yeah, that happens in the U.S. all the time.

Iran's hardline spiritual leaders have also recently issued an unprecedented new fatwa, or holy order, sanctioning the use of atomic weapons against its enemies.

Who are their enemies?
Why it's those who don't conform to their brand of Islam.
Like you.

You're Canadien?
Who do you think would be the first country to come to your aid if you were attacked?

Iran, of course!

The U.S. provides more financial and military aid to the world than all other countries COMBINED. I guess that's just because we're all so self-rightous and arrogant imperialists.

*as the croc opens wider for another bite*

[ClessAlvein]

*sigh*

Like I said earlier, I don't believe I could sway your beliefs, and I'm sure you believe you won't sway mine.

It's true. I don't think a forum like this has ever swayed anyone's beliefs. It is, however, a good place to brush up on recent events and hear some counter-points. Perhaps re-evaluate one's own point of view.

I never equated the Muslim populace to their regimes (the crocodiles). They are being held captive by them.

But to equate the radical regime in Iran to the U.S. is preposturous.

And I never equated the regime in Iran to the government of the United States. I said that leaders make mistakes, and citizens pay for them.

The rest of your post still stands on the premise and intrinsic attitud that the middle-eastern countries are all "out to get us," so I'm not going to address them directly. I will, however, say that during the cold war, attitudes towards China and Russia were pretty much the same. Those godless communists couldn't be reasoned with, they are out to crush freedom and democracy, etc. They gave us the whole propaganda works.

Now, what's happened, but a complete reversal? They're suddenly very reasonable countries who can be swayed with diplomatic talk. It's time to reopen trade with China and Russia, and everyone's happy.

As for the military aid comment, military aid is what created the whole Iraq fiasco in the first place. Perhaps it's not such a noteworthy accomplishment if it creates more problems than it solves.

[ritz627]

Oh, here's a good one:
Massoud Osanlou, the leader of the bus driver's union in Iran, was arrested and had his tongue cut out for speaking out against the regime.
Yeah, that happens in the U.S. all the time.

First off...whats the matter? I was disapointed to see you had no response for my post. Second, it doesnt happen in the US all the time, but it sure as hell happens in Africa. You'll find more terrorists there than you would have found in Iraq in the beginning of the war (or even Iran). And one more thing I would just like to say, all terrorists aren't muslim, like you for example, you try to use scare tactics to get us to believe what you want us to believe. (see my other post). And again, incase you didnt hear me before, you will never get rid of terrorists, and unrightfully invading other countries in an attempt to kill all of them will not gain you any followers, it will in fact gain the terrorists some followers.

[foolish_yeti]

The U.S. provides more financial and military aid to the world than all other countries COMBINED. I guess that's just because we're all so self-rightous and arrogant imperialists.

Actually yes, you're bang on. Financial aid is given to commercialize countries and set them up for US financial interests and military aid is given so that other forces can act for US interests.

[Titanic]

The U.S. provides more financial and military aid to the world than all other countries COMBINED. I guess that's just because we're all so self-rightous and arrogant imperialists.

Thats crap. I would like to see proof of that, cus thats just bs. Military, probably, but definately not financial. You may be the largest provider, but your not the majority provider.

[Guiscard]

The U.S. provides more financial and military aid to the world than all other countries COMBINED. I guess that's just because we're all so self-rightous and arrogant imperialists.

I was trying to stay out of this one for a while but as a percentage of gross income...





Thats not taking into account the incredibly biased nature of US aid (ignoring some countries in favour of others who are more commercially viable, providing military aid to help destabilise regions...) Keep telling yourself you're the most generous nation on the face of this planet why don't you.

The current situation in the middle east is more a result of past western interference than anything. Who do you think created Iraq as a nation-state?

[hulmey]

Nice one Guiscard....I work with Americans and i can tell you they are so brainwashed and unblickeredly patriotic its very scary...

And i though the chinese where bad....

The one good thing about being European and British is that we dont have this American prespective (although quite a few are starting to learn)...But poor things they are a young nation after all.

Hopefully soon they will sack their King of Disaster

[unriggable]

Nice one Guiscard....I work with Americans and i can tell you they are so brainwashed and unblickeredly patriotic its very scary...

No, just half of them.

For some reason all the guys my age (15-18 years old) that are republican are incredibly violent.

[feiterman]

Clinton was offered Osama but he said no. You can't get much more at fault than that.

When and where, with sources proving it, cus that bs.

Feiterman, Clinton didn have 8 years. He had from the Embassy bombings and the attack against the USS Cole, which is 2 years from the Embassy to the election, and a matter of months from Cole to the elections. He did alot in that time. He bombed the Al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and Sudan with missiles, he sent CIA operative to specifically assassinate Bin Laden, and he came the closest to killing Bin Laden of anyone since. Also, consider he had to build up a whole unit and strategy in that time, as well as implmenting it, which takes up quite a bit of time, especially when you only have 2 years. Bush had another 9 months to search for him, but he reduced the funding and importance of finding him, even though during Bush presidency confirmed reports came in of attacks by airplanes against the US on US soil, which never came in during Clinton time.

Also, the head of the CIA is not directly chosen by the president, so the president cannot just sack and replace him. Also, the problem of coordination is just just at the directors level, its is throughout both and all American intelligence organisations. The CIA, FBI, NCIS, DoD, and all other federal agencies and organisations all prefer too boost their own ego and status rather then cooperate to tackle the common problems. That the president cannot sort out, that is a more national and social problem. Compare that with the UK however, where MI5, MI6, Home Office, SOCA and others all work together to tackle terrorism and other major crimes, and the USA should really learn something.

The 9/11 Commision specifically told these agencies to start cooperating or another attack were leak through and once again expose USA's weakness. So far, I think it was something like 6/43 of the reccomendations are actually being taken into consideration and things happening to implement them.

No Clinton had from the first trade center bombing in 1993 which is seven years

[Backglass]

Don't you guys see it? This Iraq debacle is all Clinton's fault!

[juggernaut17]

Guiscard. I hate to have to get involved but

Rank Country GDP (millions of USD)
— World 44,454,843
— European Union 13,502,800
1 United States 12,455,825
2 Japan 4,567,441
3 Germany 2,791,737
4 China 2,234,133 2
5 United Kingdom 2,229,472
6 France 2,126,719
7 Italy 1,765,537
8 Canada 1,132,436
9 Spain 1,126,565
10 Brazil 795,666
11 South Korea 787,567
12 India 771,951
13 Mexico 768,437
14 Russia 763,287
15 Australia 708,519 1
16 Netherlands 629,911
17 Belgium 371,695 1
18 Switzerland 367,571
19 Turkey 362,461
20 Sweden 358,810 1
21 Republic of China (Taiwan) 346,178
22 Saudi Arabia 309,945 1
23 Austria 305,338
24 Poland 303,229 1
25 Norway 295,672

GDP per capita

1 Luxembourg 80,288
2 Norway 64,193
3 Iceland 52,764
4 Switzerland 50,532
5 Ireland 48,604
6 Denmark 47,984
7 Qatar 43,110
8 United States 42,000
9 Sweden 39,694
10 Netherlands 38,618
11 Finland 37,504
12 Austria 37,117
13 United Kingdom 37,023
14 Japan 35,757
15 Belgium 35,712
16 Canada 35,133
17 Australia 34,740
18 France 33,918
19 Germany 33,854
20 Italy 30,200
21 United Arab Emirates 27,700
22 Spain 27,226
23 Singapore 26,836
24 New Zealand 26,464
25 Kuwait 26,020

Unites States Economy is vastly superior to any others in the world.

[Wind Warrior]

Yes, and because of this view the economy of the US is being placed higher than the world. To all Americans don't be to happy about where your economy is right now because it will fall ( any none Americans the same thing can happen to us ). The US is a world power but do not forget many powers have risen and fallen and you are next either by terrorists or by nature so i suggest you make arrangements to leave soon because your capitalist government will be your down fall.
Although I do not support the Iraqis bombing of the world trade center or the war on Iraq, this war is just a civil war just on a more global scale. The Us, UK, etc.. are the "dictators" while the middle eastern countries are the "rebellion". And the reason so many of these countries that go up against the US try to create nuclear bombs is because the Us has their nuclear stockpile. (We Canadians aren't exempt for our government is trying to promote nuclear energy both at home and internationally). Terrorism if you look at the history of the world is just like rebels( not that i'm saying that i support them). These people are just behind us they live in a place that yes is rich in oil but poor in foodyou must give them time to change just like it took time to stop slavery, enable women to vote, and racial equality to begin. Any questions about any thing i have just said and send a civil email to Raph_blue@hotmail.com

[Anony#1]

Nice one Guiscard....I work with Americans and i can tell you they are so brainwashed and unblickeredly patriotic its very scary...

you better be cuz we're gonna start WW3 and it's goin' NOOCLEARARARAR

hhahaha, but seriously, if my nation goes down, im sure it'll wanna blow shit up before that happens. it's the american way; just like the movies! =D

The US is a world power but do not forget many powers have risen and fallen and you are next either by terrorists or by nature so i suggest you make arrangements to leave soon because your capitalist government will be your down fall.

Our capitalist gov. will be our down-fall. Sure. Maybe, but there are plenty of other ways for it to fall (more probable ways too), and it'll be gradual; time consuming. I doubt all the other capitalist(ic) countries in the world wont fall due to us. Nope, you guys dont need us at all, do you? Sure, we're just all interconnected through the international market/world trade, but hey, the U.S plays a small part of that, huh? Did you know China's on the verge to becoming capitalistic too? The whole "lolz privatization's kewl!" thing might raise a few eyebrows.

The point being, if the U.S completely crashes down, your country will notice the effects played onnit. I'm not saying it'll be a big thing (considering where you live which I have no clue), but it'll be noticeable. Ok, cheif?

Although I do not support the Iraqis bombing of the world trade center or the war on Iraq, this war is just a civil war just on a more global scale.

The Iraqis didn't bomb the world trade center. What are you on about, or is that just a really poorly written sentence? Huh, and the Iraq war is under a civil war-like mentality, yes...but it's not global. It's in Iraq. blorl

I've decided not to read the rest of your drivel since its...drivel. I'm not emailing you either since you're in a forum which is a place where you discuss things within a community. Talking to you alone is like talking to a dog with two legs; I'm not doing it.

[Titanic]

Juggernaut, your a first class idiot. Guiscard was not comparing economic power. Everyone knows USA has the largest economy (after the EU ).

Does ODA, or the fact that the graph says "Aid flows top USD 100 billion in 2005", or the fact that Guiscard then talk about the biased nature of US aid, or the fact that we were talking about aid not economic power not mean anything to you? Can you not ever read properly? Do you not know the difference between aid and an economy? Are you completely imcompetant at everything? Are you an uneducated American?

If the answer to all these are yes, then your name is Juggernaut17.

[Stopper]

Juggernaut, your a first class idiot. Guiscard was not comparing economic power. Everyone knows USA has the largest economy (after the EU ).

Does ODA, or the fact that the graph says "Aid flows top USD 100 billion in 2005", or the fact that Guiscard then talk about the biased nature of US aid, or the fact that we were talking about aid not economic power not mean anything to you? Can you not ever read properly? Do you not know the difference between aid and an economy? Are you completely imcompetant at everything? Are you an uneducated American?

If the answer to all these are yes, then your name is Juggernaut17.

Thanks for clearing that up - his post had me genuinely confused for about 5 minutes there...

[Iz Man]

Oh silly me......

I get it.
The U.S. is just ooohh soooo baaaaad......


That's why MILLIONS emigrate to the U.S. EVERY YEAR.
Both legally & illegally (that's another thread).
More people want to (and do) come to the U.S. than ANY other country in the world. Period. Undisputed.

Why is that?
Oh, because it sucks so bad?

Noooo.
It's the basic principles upon which this great country was founded:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

No other country in the world claims these rights to its people, and that's why America has become the most powerful (in every aspect) country in such a short period of time. You EU countries ought to take a lesson and learn that your pseudo-socialist societies just are not going to work. They do not allow for individual achievement. Is the U.S. perfect? Certainly not, but it's the best system out there right now because it holds the rights of the individual to be free above all.

So all you Americans who hate your own country can leave. Go ahead and try to find a better spot on this planet;
and to all the people from other countries,
DON"T COME HERE IF IT SUCKS SO BAD.

But you won't leave, will you American America haters?
And you'll still keep coming to live, work, vacation, or go to school, all you citizens of foreign lands.

Why is that?
Oh, because it sucks so bad...

[Backglass]

To all Americans don't be to happy about where your economy is right now because it will fall (any none Americans the same thing can happen to us). The US is a world power but do not forget many powers have risen and fallen and you are next either by terrorists or by nature so i suggest you make arrangements to leave soon because your capitalist government will be your down fall.

OK, eh.

Remember, if we go, you go with us. Learn how to trap those beavers from Grandpa now so you'll have something to fall back on.

"Canada is like a garage apartment over a really good party" - Robin Williams

[JCUGoose]

Obviously America isn't perfect. And as of late, it seems to be doing more harm than good. But is that the way it's always been? No. Is that the way it's going to be? Of course not.

Americans themselves often claim that their country is the best, but who doesn't? Everybody should take pride in their country. Unfortunately, some people take this pride, and use it as an excuse to ignore other countries.

I think that's where one of America's worst problems lies: in the fact that we often think we're so good that we look down on other countries and don't care about them unless it helps us.

As for the capitalist system being our downfall, I find that hard to believe. Our economic system is the reason our country flourishes. If anything is going to take America down, it's our foreign diplomacy.

In any case, I love America. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Not because I think everywhere else sucks (I don't, and I'd very much like to visit Europe), but because I truly love my country, as I hope everyone loves theirs. It's got its problems, but so does every country.

[alex_white101]

Oh silly me......

I get it.
The U.S. is just ooohh soooo baaaaad......


That's why MILLIONS emigrate to the U.S. EVERY YEAR.
Both legally & illegally (that's another thread).
More people want to (and do) come to the U.S. than ANY other country in the world. Period. Undisputed.

Why is that?
Oh, because it sucks so bad?

Noooo.
It's the basic principles upon which this great country was founded:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

No other country in the world claims these rights to its people, and that's why America has become the most powerful (in every aspect) country in such a short period of time. You EU countries ought to take a lesson and learn that your pseudo-socialist societies just are not going to work. They do not allow for individual achievement. Is the U.S. perfect? Certainly not, but it's the best system out there right now because it holds the rights of the individual to be free above all.

So all you Americans who hate your own country can leave. Go ahead and try to find a better spot on this planet;
and to all the people from other countries,
DON"T COME HERE IF IT SUCKS SO BAD.

But you won't leave, will you American America haters?
And you'll still keep coming to live, work, vacation, or go to school, all you citizens of foreign lands.

Why is that?
Oh, because it sucks so bad...

a lil smug? the reason people emigrate to your country is NOT because of your morals or whatever you were saying, it is because of MONEY. you have the biggest economy. mexico beside you has a much worse economy, therefore you get millions of immigrants from there because they cannot get work in their own country.

this is why people emigrate there. for security. please dont be so smug, i well admit america does very well and is better than most at alot of things, i accept that, however when people are so arrogant about it, they look pretty bad........

[Backglass]

So all you Americans who hate your own country can leave.

Who are these "American America Haters" that you speak of anyway?

I don't recall any Americans saying they hated their own country...

[ClessAlvein]

I was hoping it wouldn't come down to this, but the last few back-and-forths (excepting Titanic's clarification on the difference between GDP and foreign aid percentage) have come down to dogmatic citation of (inaccurate) supposed "facts" and statistics that makes one's own country look "better" in some way, regardless of their relevance, and in the end, only showing their ignorance. WindWarrior thinks that Iraqis bombed the WTC. People think that Clinton is to blame for 9/11. juggernaut17 thinks that GDP is a correlate of international charity.

What I really want to address is the issue of using ignorance as a mask to perceive Islam as an inherently violent and nonnegotiable theocratic culture. The basic premise seems to be "I don't need to learn about them, because there's nothing to learn about their strange, backwards culture." This was much the same attitude as the administration had at the beginning of the Iraq war, hence the immeasurable failure of the occupation, since they did not know anything about the country they were invading, and that is not to say anything about the illegitimacy of starting a war based on the notion of "pre-emption" in the first place. The United States is armed with bombs, not knowledge, and the administration's realization of their lack of knowledge is quickly filled by a plethora of stereotypes, panic, warmongering efforts, and an attempt to equate critics of the war with "unpatriotic."

I was thinking that by now, however, they could do better. The administration could have established research committees on finding a method of withdrawal based on cultural establishment or cultural integration. They have done no such thing, either due to an unwillingness to resort to such a "soft" approach, political manoeuvering, or due to blatant ignorance.

[juggernaut17]

Juggernaut, your a first class idiot. Guiscard was not comparing economic power. Everyone knows USA has the largest economy (after the EU ).

Does ODA, or the fact that the graph says "Aid flows top USD 100 billion in 2005", or the fact that Guiscard then talk about the biased nature of US aid, or the fact that we were talking about aid not economic power not mean anything to you? Can you not ever read properly? Do you not know the difference between aid and an economy? Are you completely imcompetant at everything? Are you an uneducated American?

If the answer to all these are yes, then your name is Juggernaut17.

Yea, what was the best prep school in the country thinking when they gave me a full ride?

[Backglass]

Yea, what was the best prep school in the country thinking when they gave me a full ride?

You needed the help?

[Guiscard]

The United States is armed with bombs, not knowledge, and the administration's realization of their lack of knowledge is quickly filled by a plethora of stereotypes, panic, warmongering efforts, and an attempt to equate critics of the war with "unpatriotic."

Eloquent and insightful. Best snippet from this thread so far IMO.

@ Juggernaut17 - Why do you find the need to boast about a top class education? I very strongly doubt they taught you the racist and bigoted views you have espoused in other posts on this sight, so either you weren't listening or getting an education in a rich white-boy college trust fund establishment hasn't done you any good. Try experiencing the world a little.

@ Iz Man - I find it slightly insulting when the US claims democracy as its invention and the USA as the sole beacon of democracy in a heathen dictatorial world. There are democracies all over the world where people are given fairer treatment, better civil rights, a freer, healthier, cleaner, happier life... The US is not the only country which holds the rights of the citizen as central, and take a read of your patriot act for a lesson in how that's a fallacy anyway. As for American superpower status most serious scholars put that down to simple good fortune and a manipulation of the international post-war situation which prevented most of Europe from being anything but an American economic satellite for decades. A dictatorship could have manipulated the post-war situation just as beneficially as 'free' America did. Don't kid yourself that the US is the current global hegemony because of the 'freedom' and 'democracy' that you're so proud of.

[Iz Man]

Who are these "American America Haters" that you speak of anyway?

I would have to say they know who they are. I would never presume that anyone who offers constructive critisism of the U.S. and it's policies "hate". Nor would I say if you disagree with me you hate America.
It seems some comments are written from a blind dislike of America just because we are the biggest kid on the block, and that is just "not fair". Whatever fair is.
I also think these same people refuse to admit that it is because they live in the U.S. that they are allowed to say what they do. Many other countries in the world do not allow dissent at all (i.e. Iran).

Do I think YOU hate the U.S. Backglass? Of course not. We certainly have (IMO) different points of view, and you seem informed and educated enough to offer constructive critisism that lends itself to dialog.
Plus you can't be too bad because you're a fellow homebrewer......