Continuation of Christianity debate.

[unriggable]

It is, however, an indicator that faith is beneficial

Many - if not most - people believe that prayer will help you through a medical crisis such as heart bypass surgery. If a large group of people outside yourself, your family, and your friends add their prayers, that should be even more helpful, or so such reasoning goes.
...
In a clear setback for those who believe in the power of prayer, their prayers were not answered.
...
(heart surgery details, big skip, results below)
...
In total, complications occurred in 59 percent of those who were prayed for, compared with 51 percent of those who received no prayers, a significant difference.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2006 ... rayer.html

[CrazyAnglican]

http://www.1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_prayer_Benefits.htm

Too bad they don't give us even a single number to show just HOW big these benefits are. I mean, is it 1% or is it 20%?

The articles are cited on the web page. I checked one at random it stated the following:

Rates of maternal complications for women:

1) No religious preference 21%
2) mainline Christian (defined as Catholic, Episcopal, & Methodist) 11%


Rates of neonatal ICU admissions:

1) No religious preference 18%
2) mainline Christian 11%


In my profession (only for a frame of reference) a change of 3-5% is statistically relevant (that is not attributable to mere chance).

I'm only a layman but that looks to me like half the chance of having maternal complications which seems considerable. The article states that it is a small benefit though. Feel free to check the abstract out for yourself.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_16729580

Many - if not most - people believe that prayer will help you through a medical crisis such as heart bypass surgery. If a large group of people outside yourself, your family, and your friends add their prayers, that should be even more helpful, or so such reasoning goes.
...
In a clear setback for those who believe in the power of prayer, their prayers were not answered.
...
(heart surgery details, big skip, results below)
...
In total, complications occurred in 59 percent of those who were prayed for, compared with 51 percent of those who received no prayers, a significant difference.

Sure this would tend to refute what I've cited, but these people were prayed for (by someone else?) I was citing the medical benefits of personal faith, not the faith of people surronding you and wishing you well. Which admittedly having a large group of people praying for you seems to be detrimental in this instance. In conjunction with the above articles they all seem to lend credence to the "Your faith has healed you" line I mentioned.

It's also worth mentioning that the people being prayed for were receiving prayers from people who apparently didn't know them and were being told when to pray, how long to pray, and specifically what they should ask for. I don't dispute the results. It seemed a little cold in the way the prayer process was stipulated, and there was a significant change when the intercessors were asked to pray in this manner. I certainly won't be praying over a list of people I don't know.

[luns101]

I was citing the medical benefits of personal faith, not the faith of people surronding you and wishing you well. Which admittedly having a large group of people praying for you seems to be detrimental in this instance. In conjunction with the above articles they all seem to lend credence to the "Your faith has healed you" line I mentioned.

It's also worth mentioning that the people being prayed for were receiving prayers from people who apparently didn't know them and were being told when to pray, how long to pray, and specifically what they should ask for. I don't dispute the results. It seemed a little cold in the way the prayer process was stipulated, and there was a significant change when the intercessors were asked to pray in this manner. I certainly won't be praying over a list of people I don't know.

Not bad for a Georgian. I had pretty much the same thoughts when I read the article.

[unriggable]

No Christian wants to respond to my post? Fine. Way to put up a good argument.

[MeDeFe]

CA did answer...

[unriggable]

Angelican the problem is that the people being operated upon did think that prayer would have a positive result. As you can plainly see the opposite took place. Seems to refute the 'love thy neighbor' thing if by praying for them you make them more likely to suffer.

[MR. Nate]

And to Mr. Nate, please clarify what you mean by "unpunished sinners". Because according to the Bible I read, there is no such thing as an "unpunished sinner." Everyone has been forgiven. Christians and non-Christians alike. All that is left for us to decide is whether or not we accept that.

If a sinner rejects the blood of Christ, they would remain a sinner. If they have rejected the blood of Christ and are not currently in hell, they are an unpunished sinner.

[2dimes]

Also the point of this planet and people's earthly existance is to be challenged by Satan not to believe in God.

I don't think I could disagree with you more.

Fair enough, I did word that poorly in addition to failing to seperate it from the sentance regarding faith.

I am refering to the current state of the planet after the fruit of knowledge had been consumed.

If you observe most of what I call earth religions including the school of evolution. They tend to be concepts that are partially the same thing the serpent said when he told Eve to eat the fruit.

Obtain enlightenment and you're set.

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I would suspect you feel the purpose of your time here is, to Love God with all your mind, body and soul. I agree but get too caught up in the physical to pull it off. Sometimes I allow my greed for $7 billion and an airplane, or lusts for beer advertising models to corrupt me.

[2dimes]

There will continue to be much more compelling evidence on both evolution and extra terrestrials placing us here, untill people's violent destructive behavior toward those that belong to Christ, finally becomes uncontrollable.

I don't know what you mean by the second paragraph, but I wasn't using "faith" in a pejorative way, if that's what you thought. I was just pointing out that no further "evidence" is ever going to affect the debate either way, as Skittles seemed to be saying.

I took the first paragraph out because I didn't seperate it well, it should have been three paragraphs instead of two. Also I missed a little bit of the concept that I addressed in the response to Senior Nate.

As for the second paragraph my theory is partially affected by that current state of human existance here.

Faith is a powerfull force even when miss directed. Things happen that are most certainly affected by the faith that a person can do things they shouldn't be able to do.

I'll use the example of imaging in sports.
(there's a word for it I'm failing to recall right now, my brain is broken)

I read an article about a study where they took a group of people with a similar level of capability at shooting a basket ball. They seperated them and half went to the courts to practise once a day for several months. The other half was directed to spend the same amount of time visualising shooting perfect shots. At the end of the time period both groups improved a similar amount and some of the group that did the visualising improved more.

I believe there will continue to be much further "evidence" that will seem to prove both evolution and the concept that we are a genetic experiment placed here by extra terrestrials.

I also believe some of that evidence will likely be out right lies however it will be compelling to the point of seeming to be true and obvious.

It will affect the debate as there are a high amount of people that claim to be christians that will be swayed to believe we have been placed by aliens and that is where the concept of creation stems from. There is literature and groups suggesting this, they seem to be increasing in popularity.

Evolution is allready becoming an accepted idea within most christian churches. That will increase.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I believe that will serve as further evidence for Yeshua and his being messiah.

[CrazyAnglican]

Angelican the problem is that the people being operated upon did think that prayer would have a positive result. As you can plainly see the opposite took place. Seems to refute the 'love thy neighbor' thing if by praying for them you make them more likely to suffer.

Like I said, I don't question the validity of the study. The people in your study were volunteers who prayed over a list of stranger's names. As far as prayer goes, my priest has counselled me not to do that (I was for a while) as it's probably not the most effective way to pray.

Intercessory prayer (praying for others) is different from what I was speaking about (having personal faith). Intercessory prayer may have benefits in some cases. Your report states that two previous studies found that intercessory prayer helped, and two stated it did not.

In the larger scope of the study, that you cited, we have:

2 studies stating intercessory prayer for strangers helps.
2 studies stating that intercessory prayer for strangers doesn't help.
1 study stating intercessory prayer for strangers is harmful.

This hardly seems conclusive; I'll probably keep praying for people until we have a concensus that I'm doing harm. The Harvard study also says nothing at all about the effectiveness of prayer for yourself, your friends, your family members, and your accquaintences (or enemies for that matter). It only addresses prayer for strangers.

The two websites I cited yesterday mention nearly fifty studies (42 studies in the first, and several individual studies in the second) all of which state that having faith does seem to have a positive effect on individual health.

[Guiscard]

I take it all back.

God officially does exist.

God smote me asunder.

Just got in from work and a burning hot lightbulb, which had been on all day, fell right outa the fitting and onto the back of my neck. I am in intense pain.

Sorry God... Hope that wasn't you putting a bad word in Luns.

[luns101]

I don't think I can prove God's existence, but I think I can prove that hell exists:

http://www.hell2u.com/

Of course it's located in Michigan, Nate!

[s.xkitten]

CHRISTIANS TRY TO STEAL YOUR SOUL...RUN FOR YOUR LIVES BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!

just for you luns

[luns101]

CHRISTIANS TRY TO STEAL YOUR SOUL...RUN FOR YOUR LIVES BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!

just for you luns

I think you've seen one too many Wishmaster movies.

[s.xkitten]

that and i went to catholic school...

[MR. Nate]

I figured everyone knew about Hell.

They've got a race there every year, and they sell t-shirts that say, "I ran through Hell" They've got "A Hell of a Rodeo"

I even knew a guy with a girlfriend from Hell.

[s.xkitten]

I even knew a guy with a girlfriend from Hell.

I know several boys with that problem...

[Stopper]

Here is Hell frozen over.

[unriggable]

"My dad is dead but I know he is out there somewhere, looking up at me..."

[Jenos Ridan]

can you be forgiven if you dont ask for forgiveness?

yes

And I suppose a lazy man should receive free food ahead of another who actually goes to work? One who contributes back to society?

Jesus died, in perhaps the most brutal way possible and top it off, he committed no crime. If you were walking along, and some pychopath turned a gun on you and someone else took the bullet for you, would you not feel some need to be grateful and give your condolences to the family of the decesed?

[Jenos Ridan]

exactly, do you think the apostles would've died for a lie? i mean all they had to do was admit that it was a lie. take peter for example, he thought himself unworthy to die the same death as JESUS he asked to be crucified up side down. that's devotion.

What do Islamic suicide bombers die for?

Are you saying that Jesus never existed?

Figures, that would be the first thing you would try and aim for.

[Guiscard]

exactly, do you think the apostles would've died for a lie? i mean all they had to do was admit that it was a lie. take peter for example, he thought himself unworthy to die the same death as JESUS he asked to be crucified up side down. that's devotion.

What do Islamic suicide bombers die for?

Are you saying that Jesus never existed?

Figures, that would be the first thing you would try and aim for.

No. I think you're missing my point.

The fact that the apostles would die for something doesn't make it true. If you accept martyrdom as evidence of true religious message then you would also have to accept that, in line with his argument Islamic martyrs prove the existence of the Islamic God - something directly in conflict with the beliefs of most Christians.

I don't see where you got Jesus not existing from...

[Bertros Bertros]

Strange double post wierdness, ignore this and read the next one... consider this an uncommercial break...

[Bertros Bertros]

I got pulled out of a wheelchair and started dancing once as well. I was drunk and it was very childish though not very mythical. I'd suggest maybe showing a little consideration for the feelings of all those people your God has chosen not to pull out of their wheelchairs before bandying around this sort of nonsense.

I think you're missing an important part of healing. Christ said to the woman who came up and touched his robe "Your faith has healed you". This isn't God randomly saying "Hey, watch me pull a tumor outta that guy!" it is the medical benefit of having faith. You can call it the placebo effect, or whatever you like, and it certainly isn't proof of God's existence. It is, however, an indicator that faith is beneficial, and it's written evidence that the author of those words (even if you don't attribute them to Christ) apparently knew that two-thousand years before the medical community.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=50846

See “Medical Benefits of Faith” which cites 42 studies of over 125,000 patients indicating that faith has a medical benefit. ( It is inconclusive whether the benefit may come from the community or the faith, but who cares it’s still a benefit)

Is it nonsense when an athelete places faith in hard work and determination to overcome a horrible injury? No, but not every injury can be overcome through hard work and determination. So if an athlete puts faith in God that her hard work and determination, will pay off, even when doctors say it won't, that doesn't sound at all nonsensical. It may not work, but it may. There is no sense in giving up.

Here is another website citing articles suggesting wider medical benefits (physical, mental, and emotional) of faith.

http://www.1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_p ... nefits.htm

This is interesting as it demonstrates that having faith can help with overcoming illness and injury. This is a well known fact, the placebo effect has been well researched and documented plenty of times. This doesn't mean having faith in [insert preffered deity] has any effect in overcoming illness and injury. The faith in question is faith in yourself, and faith you will heal. For some people this comes from with themselves, others find the faith in placebo medicine and others in religion. One of the reasons I am unhappy with established religion is I feel it acts as a barrier to people from finding true faith and happiness with who they are, I see it as a spiritual crutch which in part absolves the believer from a responsibility for themselves.

In the words of the great bard; "To thine own self be true"...

[unriggable]

Berertros is right, its the same thing as when you are told you are being treated by the best surgeon in the world. You have faith in the surgeon - same goes for your God / Gods.