Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[Backglass]

This is actualy very easily explained. God created the "thunder Lizards" as you say, because they were part of the creation, they did not go extinct when the flood came, rather they have shrunk. where do you live? I bet it's somewhere where there are lizards right? if those lizards were to be put in an artificial enviroment (It is belived that the atmospheric pressure of Earth was much higher, nearly doubled) After 7 or 8 generations, you would have very large lizards, or if you will, a Dinosaur.

wow...I mean...wow.

I am utterly speechless because I know you believe this 100%. If this is what the masses believe, there is no hope for our country.

I thought the rapture was invented by the guys who made the 'left behind' series.

No. It is a song from 1980 by Blondie, regarded by many as the first mainstream song to feature rap.

"Cause now he only eat's guitars, GET UP!"

[MR. Nate]

Sorry to disappoint you CoffeCream, but I've studied this issue quite extensively. I was saying that the common outline of the dispensational point of view is not one I agree with, although I agree with their theology of the future. I'm more of the "If you don't know, than study" than the "take it by faith"

I must admit that this concept of a rapture is pretty scary if it is true. Others have told me that this tribulation period after the rapture will be God's final effort to get his message through to men, but then others say it's all going to focus on Israel. Not sure if Armaggedeon happens at the beginning, middle, or end of this 7 year period.

Armageddon occurs after the 7 years. It is the nations of earth combining forces to wipe Israel off the map. Christ appears and destroys those armies because they are in rebellion.

I have come to the conclusion after reading that if the Bible is true then I have indeed offended God with my sins. I can't deny that I've done bad things. I'm just not sure if I believe that Christ is the answer to forgive them. I know what you Christians are going to say to that, but it's not a very easy thing to figure out.

I'm not sure what you expect, but my reaction is pleasant surprise. I am curious if you think there is a better way, or if you're simply unconvinced of Christ.

its been a while, but i was under the impression that there were three major interpretations to the rapture idea of varying degrees of belief among some more current believers.

1) the tribulation view which i think most rapture oriented believers believe in, the idea that it gets worse before it gets better

2) was the world gets better idea that nate suggested, in a way that Jesus would not come back until history had fufilled itself in a lot of ways already

3) (most hazy) some notion that tribulation would start and that part of the way through Jesus would rapture believers away.

I guess the noncritical part of me wonders about number 2. If your gonna make the world fix itself in a lot of ways before you start the millenial kingdom...why is it then you rapture away the believers once they finally get it right?

The covenant view (2) doesn't believe in the rapture, they only accept one coming of Christ. the 3rd view is called mid-trib, and is generally considered a variant of dispensationalism.

I thought the rapture was invented by the guys who made the 'left behind' series.

Even the most liberal scholars will admit that at the very latest, it was invented by John Nelson Darby.

[muy_thaiguy]

Maybe I should reiterate from my last post, I believe it will hapen, but not in the way that certain people are brought straight to Heaven. Sorry if I wasn't to clear before.

[unriggable]

I thought the rapture was invented by the guys who made the 'left behind' series.

Even the most liberal scholars will admit that at the very latest, it was invented by John Nelson Darby.

Well you learn something every day (I am ashamed to have it be this thread).

[CoffeeCream]

I am curious if you think there is a better way, or if you're simply unconvinced of Christ.

To be honest it's because I would have to submit to a whole new life according to what I've been reading. Just don't know if that's possible for me. I would like to think I could be humble enough to do that but in all honesty it seems like a tall order.

[Mr_Adams]

This is actualy very easily explained. God created the "thunder Lizards" as you say, because they were part of the creation, they did not go extinct when the flood came, rather they have shrunk. where do you live? I bet it's somewhere where there are lizards right? if those lizards were to be put in an artificial enviroment (It is belived that the atmospheric pressure of Earth was much higher, nearly doubled) After 7 or 8 generations, you would have very large lizards, or if you will, a Dinosaur.

wow...I mean...wow.

I am utterly speechless because I know you believe this 100%. If this is what the masses believe, there is no hope for our country.

you don't belive what I say? why don't you research it. I'm not sure all the specifics, but it's been tested. same idea as the hyperbaric chambers used for speeded recovery of major injuries such as full body burns and such things. It's been shown that any plant/animal that lives in such an enviromnt will have increased life span and growth rate. Since most reptiles don't have the same growth paters as humans ,ie. they don't go threw a growth spurt in thier early life and then stop growing,rather they grow at a constint rate thier entire life, a small lizard could easily grow to sizes no other lizard you've ever seen could achive.

[unriggable]

This is actualy very easily explained. God created the "thunder Lizards" as you say, because they were part of the creation, they did not go extinct when the flood came, rather they have shrunk. where do you live? I bet it's somewhere where there are lizards right? if those lizards were to be put in an artificial enviroment (It is belived that the atmospheric pressure of Earth was much higher, nearly doubled) After 7 or 8 generations, you would have very large lizards, or if you will, a Dinosaur.

wow...I mean...wow.

I am utterly speechless because I know you believe this 100%. If this is what the masses believe, there is no hope for our country.

you don't belive what I say? why don't you research it. I'm not sure all the specifics, but it's been tested. same idea as the hyperbaric chambers used for speeded recovery of major injuries such as full body burns and such things. It's been shown that any planet/animal that lives in such an enviromnt will have increased life span and growth rate. Since most reptiles don't have the same growth paters as humans ,ie. they don't go threw a growth spurt in thier early life and then stop growing,rather they grow at a constint rate thier entire life, a small lizard could easily grow to sizes no other lizard you've ever seen could achive.

First off, spellcheck.


Next. You're right about one part, that reptiles (at least a few, like snakes) continually grow throughout their life (although they go through a point where they start to become sexually active and grow faster and shed more often than normal). However an increased pressure would not give them added benefits, much less so with size. What you are thinking of is that underwater arthropods, which deal with a much greater pressure, (insects, etc.) are larger since their is less weight from less gravity to support their shells, along with more oxygen to pump to it. So in a sense you're right but you drew wrong conclusions from it.

[Mr_Adams]

well if thats wrong, I can at least give a biblical quote describing a pre-flood creature that no longer lives (dinosaur)

Although the monstrous creature was obviously a vegetarian, its size was overwhelming. Its hips could withstand the enormous force of each pounding step and its midsection was a mass of muscle. Its gigantic tail extended far behind him, not unlike a giant cedar tree swaying behind his body. Its bones were like steel girders with ribs like iron bars to support his enormous weight. This is the greatest creature to roam the swamps and rivers of the earth.

Job 40:15-24

written thousands of years before the first dino bones were discovered.... explain that.

[Mr_Adams]

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=37 here's the whole article i was reading.

Oh, and for those of you who DON'T know, Atheism is a religion.

[Neutrino]

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=37 here's the whole article i was reading.

Bleh, I can't believe I actually clicked that link. So much concentrated bias. I feel kind of dirty for adding to their hit-count.

Not that I automatically dismiss the argument, but it would be a huge amount better if it actually contained something other than biblical stories (what was the actual quote, by the way? Their paraphrased version and the original I suspect have a large variation).

And the large TRUTH fish eating the small DARWIN fish? *shudder*

Oh, and for those of you who DON'T know, Atheism is a religion.

I think Backglass will have something to say to you about this :lol:

[Mr_Adams]

http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=37 here's the whole article i was reading.

Bleh, I can't believe I actually clicked that link. So much concentrated bias. I feel kind of dirty for adding to their hit-count.

Not that I automatically dismiss the argument, but it would be a huge amount better if it actually contained something other than biblical stories (what was the actual quote, by the way? Their paraphrased version and the original I suspect have a large variation).

And the large TRUTH fish eating the small DARWIN fish? *shudder*

Oh, and for those of you who DON'T know, Atheism is a religion.

I think Backglass will have something to say to you about this :lol:

As for the first part, I do belive they were a bit to crude in thier aproach.

As for the second part, Backglass can keep it coming

Oh, and anyone who thinks they can suficiently prove Evoluion, there is a man named Kent Hovind who offers a 1/4 million USD reward to anyone who provides irivokable proof.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Oh, and for those of you who DON'T know, Atheism is a religion.

So by your definition believing that some god doesn`t exist is the same as believing it does?

If you believe that unicorns do not exist, then may I say that you are a member of the "No unicorns" religion? Is it a matter of faith that unicorns do not exist? Can I come along to your non-unicorn church with you tomorrow?

Oh, and anyone who thinks they can suficiently prove Evoluion, there is a man named Kent Hovind who offers a 1/4 million USD reward to anyone who provides irivokable proof.

There is a 1 million dollar reward which will be awarded to anyone that can prove that Jesus isn`t the son of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Feel up to it?

[MeDeFe]

Oh, and anyone who thinks they can suficiently prove Evoluion, there is a man named Kent Hovind who offers a 1/4 million USD reward to anyone who provides irivokable proof.

Allow me to redirect you to this page, it beautifully explains what this offer is, and why, in my opinion, even mentioning it is a waste of time.

[CrazyAnglican]

I know that sounds cold but how could I ever love a murderer or a sex offender?

Good question,

You do not have to approve of what they do to love them. The commandment is "Love thy neighbor as thyself". Well, I don't approve of my every impulse and action. I know that I can be a miserable jerk sometimes, (just ask Neo ) but I do not hate myself for my transgressions. I don't wish misfortune on myself. I'd like to have a fair trial rather than being lynched for any terrible crime, etc. You are right that there are some who are hard to love, but the basis of this commandment (I think) is to remind us that everyone is human and subject to temptations. So we shouldn't hold ourselves above others; seeing our own sins as less reprehensible than theirs. To give someone a fair shake, when everyone around you clamors for their head on a platter, is love.

These long posts kill me... we need to sort this out soon...

Let me explain....No it would take too long.....let me sum up

It doesn't seem that I'm going to get you to off the accusation that some minority of Christians (no matter how small it might be) constitute a "Christian mindset" that the suffering of others is good. You've stated that this is one reason you despise Christianity. I think that is a pretty telling statement, given that neither of us has said anything about hating the other's position until that one. I'm just saying that it seems a little thin as a reason to depise another's outlook. Especially when you already seem to have your mind made up as to what it means over the protests and patient explanations of believers.

You've stated that you have read "your Christ". I assume you meant the Gospels. Then you've probably come across "The last of you will be first and the first of you will be last". That is all that I'm saying. You can read whatever you want into it, but it's simply a warning that God doesn't show favor through material gain. He loves the poor as much as the rich. Once every possible means of alleviating another's suffering (whether it be famine, war, cancer, or a depressive disorder) has been exhausted (by the charity you freely acknowledge). Then some will not have been reached (due to resources, time or human limitations). Then God takes over (perhaps with rain, a bumper crop, or with death and an afterlife). God is just. As for your slippery slope argument, it would be nothing short of blasphemey for a Christian to think himself on an equal footing with God. So, I think it would be rare (at least I've never heard anyone say) that "what is good enough for God is good enough for me". Given your argument it would be more accurate to say "what is permissible for God is permissible for me" in which case it's easy to see the flaw. Imagine a peasant, in the Middle Ages, justifying himself for poaching on the king's land with the argument that "The king hunts here! It should be okay for me to as well!".

[Backglass]

you don't belive what I say?

No I don't.

why don't you research it.

Do you believe Leprechauns exist? Why don't you research it?

I'm not sure all the specifics, but it's been tested.

It is obvious you are not sure of "specifics". The high pressure you claim to have existed on earth is easy to replicate via a hyperbaric chamber as you suggest. Please feel free to post pictures of the Dinosaurs created in such chambers.

well if thats wrong, I can at least give a biblical quote describing a pre-flood creature that no longer lives (dinosaur)

And I can give you a quote that says your bible is a book of stories. When you grow up you will learn that not everything you read it true.

Oh, and for those of you who DON'T know, Atheism is a religion.

Much like "Blonde" is a religion?

I know it makes you feel better to think of Atheism as a religion as then you can consider it competition, but it is a definition...not a religion. I also know it has been pounded into your head by preachers since you were able to listen so I understand your confusion.

Atheism, by definition, is the absence of theism. If you cannot say "I believe in a Deity/God/Supreme Being" then you are an atheist. If you are not a theist, then you are an atheist. It is as simple as that.

An atheist doesn't believe magical gods exist. Thats all. There are no prayers, no bibles, no saints, no gods, no messiahs, no miracles and no churches.

True, there are one or two weirdos that claim to have a "Atheists Church" (texas I think?) or an "Atheists Bible" but the irony is that the simple fact they created these things excludes them from being an Atheist by definition.

If you believe that unicorns do not exist, then it is obvious that you are a member of the "No unicorns" religion. Is it a matter of faith that unicorns do not exist? Can I come along to your "non-unicorn believers church" with you tomorrow?

[unriggable]

well if thats wrong, I can at least give a biblical quote describing a pre-flood creature that no longer lives (dinosaur)

Although the monstrous creature was obviously a vegetarian, its size was overwhelming. Its hips could withstand the enormous force of each pounding step and its midsection was a mass of muscle. Its gigantic tail extended far behind him, not unlike a giant cedar tree swaying behind his body. Its bones were like steel girders with ribs like iron bars to support his enormous weight. This is the greatest creature to roam the swamps and rivers of the earth.

Job 40:15-24

written thousands of years before the first dino bones were discovered.... explain that.

Every dinosaur was a vegetarian. That makes absolutely perfect sense. Sharp teeth? Used for eating leaves! Of course.


Maybe you should look at a science book and not a fantasy book. I think dianetics can give you an equally feasible answer.

[CrazyAnglican]

I am curious if you think there is a better way, or if you're simply unconvinced of Christ.

To be honest it's because I would have to submit to a whole new life according to what I've been reading. Just don't know if that's possible for me. I would like to think I could be humble enough to do that but in all honesty it seems like a tall order.

It definitely is a tall order, but not one you'll live up to immediately. It's a process through which you become stronger in your beliefs. There are ups and downs, breakthroughs and setbacks. I'd suggest you continue to still look to see what's right for you. If it does end up being Christianity then nobody will expect you to stop being yourself. There is no ideal of a perfect Christian (other than Christ), each person is just trying to do they best they can.

[Neoteny]

Oh, and for those of you who DON'T know, Atheism is a religion.

I know this was a while back, but I have to say this:

Christianity is not a religion.

[Mr_Adams]

well if thats wrong, I can at least give a biblical quote describing a pre-flood creature that no longer lives (dinosaur)

Although the monstrous creature was obviously a vegetarian, its size was overwhelming. Its hips could withstand the enormous force of each pounding step and its midsection was a mass of muscle. Its gigantic tail extended far behind him, not unlike a giant cedar tree swaying behind his body. Its bones were like steel girders with ribs like iron bars to support his enormous weight. This is the greatest creature to roam the swamps and rivers of the earth.

Job 40:15-24

written thousands of years before the first dino bones were discovered.... explain that.

Every dinosaur was a vegetarian. That makes absolutely perfect sense. Sharp teeth? Used for eating leaves! Of course.


Maybe you should look at a science book and not a fantasy book. I think dianetics can give you an equally feasible answer.

umm... HELLO!! This is ONE description of ONE pre-flood dinosaurs. What part of this quote yells "ultimatum"? None but what you say is a description of ALL dinosaurs.

[MR. Nate]

I am curious if you think there is a better way, or if you're simply unconvinced of Christ.

To be honest it's because I would have to submit to a whole new life according to what I've been reading. Just don't know if that's possible for me. I would like to think I could be humble enough to do that but in all honesty it seems like a tall order.

I'd agree with CA on this one. It's not a magical "I made this decision and I changed my life" it's more like "I made this decision and now God is beginning to show me some things in my life that need to be changed." I'm glad your thinking about it as a serious commitment.

[WidowMakers]

Every dinosaur was a vegetarian. That makes absolutely perfect sense. Sharp teeth? Used for eating leaves! Of course.

Animals who have sharp teeth today are not carnivores, but use them to open fruit and eat vegetables. Having sharp teeth has nothing to do with an animal being a meat-eater or not.

The fruit bat is a prime example. Some species in the piranha group of fish use their jaws and teeth entirely for plants.



Pandas have very sharp, strong teeth, and they are classed among the carnivores (meat-eaters). They are categorized with carnivores because of their powerful set of reinforced jaws, but the only meat the red panda will ever eat is the occasional bug. Like the giant panda, bamboo makes up most of its diet, one of the least nutritious foods on the planet.

This proves that you cannot tell what an animal eats just by looking at its teeth.

[Heimdall]

"Large bite marks found on bones of other dinosaurs indicate that these teeth could penetrate solid bone."

[WidowMakers]

"Large bite marks found on bones of other dinosaurs indicate that these teeth could penetrate solid bone."

I am not saying they couldn't. I am stating that other animals have sharp teeth and only eat plants.

Dinosaurs, after the fall, ate meat. That is not being debated. What is being questioned is why they were created with sharp teeth if they only ate plants.

Created with sharp teeth and ate plants (like other sharp toothed animals today)
and
After the fall, ate meat with sharp teeth (bite marks on bones)

WM

[Neutrino]

The difference isthat, while the bat has sharp teeth at the front of it's mouth (probably for gripping fruit), it also has flat molars at the back of it's mouth for the purpose of grinding. I would imagine the Panda has a similar setup; long and sharp incisors for shreading tough plant matter and flat molars for grinding it.
There's a huge difference between these and the Rex, who dosen't possess anything even remotely suited to eating plants.

[meme]

I am curious if you think there is a better way, or if you're simply unconvinced of Christ.

To be honest it's because I would have to submit to a whole new life according to what I've been reading. Just don't know if that's possible for me. I would like to think I could be humble enough to do that but in all honesty it seems like a tall order.

It definitely is a tall order, but not one you'll live up to immediately. It's a process through which you become stronger in your beliefs. There are ups and downs, breakthroughs and setbacks. I'd suggest you continue to still look to see what's right for you. If it does end up being Christianity then nobody will expect you to stop being yourself. There is no ideal of a perfect Christian (other than Christ), each person is just trying to do they best they can.

coffeecream, I will pray for you as you figure out if it's right for you. You sound like you've been thinking about this and searching for awhile. CrazyAnglican is right. It's nice to read your posts and see that you're humble enough to just be honest about your feelings.