Logic dictates that there is a God!

[heavycola]

But I'm talking about Catholics that follow the true Catholic religion

Truman you muppet, until Luther nailed his thoughts to the church door in Wittenberg EVERYONE was catholic. Are you seriously suggesting that the majority of the followers of christ in Italy, Spain, the whole of South America, the Phillipines etc etc are not christians?

comming up with an interpretation and condemming those who don't READ it that way is another

Exactly my point. All anyone - scholar, atheist or believer - has to go on is the bible. Same source material. Seems to me all you lot have done is attack those who don't agree with your interpretation. What about gay christians? pro-choice christians? Evolutionist christians? Each has their own interpretation of scripture. Even the heathen Catholics.

Obviously everyone else is wrong. How could that not be the case?[/quote]

[Truman]

Are you seriously suggesting that the majority of the followers of christ in Italy, Spain, the whole of South America, the Phillipines etc etc are not christians?

Yes, I am.

EDIT: Maybe if you would read the Bible you'd understand. But maybe you're like Kevin Bacon on Millionaire, where he had to use a 50-50 to see who it was who named the animals in Genesis.

[heavycola]

Everything you post simply underlines your frightening levels of ignorance. I would ask you why you have decided that the world's 1 billion+ catholics are not christians, but frankly i'm a little scared of the response.

[Pilate]

Are you seriously suggesting that the majority of the followers of christ in Italy, Spain, the whole of South America, the Phillipines etc etc are not christians?

Yes, I am.

EDIT: Maybe if you would read the Bible you'd understand. But maybe you're like Kevin Bacon on Millionaire, where he had to use a 50-50 to see who it was who named the animals in Genesis.

Most people (i.e. everyone) consider Catholics to be Christians. Truman is just being narrow minded (what a surprise) and presenting his personal opinion as fact (again, what a surprise).

[Truman]

Lol, and I thought actual proof would be given to back up this claim. Would you like me to list the thousands upon thousands of differences between Catholic beliefs and Christian beliefs? I can post the first 200 and then leave it alone while you comprehend it.

It isn't my personal opinion, by the way. I've read more than you know on this subject.

[Caleb the Cruel]

this thread has long posts and should therefore die

[heavycola]

Truman, you're not as clever as you think you are. And Val Kilmer isn't as sexy as you think he is, either. And i can't argue with anyone who leaves at the end of their posts, or writes things like "and then leave it alone while you comprehend it" because all either makes me want to do is reach through the screen and slap you.

[Pilate]

Lol, and I thought actual proof would be given to back up this claim. Would you like me to list the thousands upon thousands of differences between Catholic beliefs and Christian beliefs? I can post the first 200 and then leave it alone while you comprehend it.

It isn't my personal opinion, by the way. I've read more than you know on this subject.

Um, you realize Catholics were first, and other churches split from it. The onus is on you to back up your claim, since you go against conventional thinking. Moron.

Oh, and just because you read something, doesn't make it true. For example, I read that Truman has intelligent opinions. That is obviously far from the truth

[happysadfun]

No. You're wrong. Catholics were not necessarily the first Christians. Catholics are not all cultists. Just because people believe that Jesus died for them on the Cross does not make them Christians. CoGs believe that. Jehovahs Witnesses believe that. Trancendents believe that. Some Baha'is and Unitarian Universalists believe it. Mormons (which could easily be splelled without the M) believe that. The Boston/City Churches believe that. And the ppl i just listed are CULTS. As you like to say, BLACK AND WHITE. First there was normal Christianity. THEN came Catholocism. And false nonBiblical myths, WHICH ARE NOT PRESENT IN ALL CATHOLIC CONGREGATIONS, such as Immaculate Conception, developed over time.

The OT has plenty of influence on Christians. Christianity is a splitoff from Judaism. The OT is in our Holy Book, the Bible. Which makes it HOLY.

Next concern: We are sinful beings. When God forgives us, our slate is empty. No more sin. We still have a tendency to sin. We are not Perfect, but we are Forgiven.

[Beastly]

Logic tells me...

Nobody can choose for me, and no one can make me choose...

If I choose to believe.. I may recieve all that is in prophecy...If it is a lie, then I lose nothing. IF it is true, and i reject it, I may lose out on all this is in prophesy? hmmmmm...

Logically I come out on top to believe... if i am wrong.. then oh well.. what did I lose. nothing.

I choose to believe!!!!!

[strike wolf]

that makes since but it kinda makes me think you choose to believe for the wrong reasons.

[Beastly]

what are the right reasons then???
lol...
I look forward to a future.. beyond this time.
I am only asked to believe. and this Thread is suppose to be about God and Logic. so..... Logically I want what is promised for me. and only believers recieve.

[strike wolf]

Actually the more I look at it the less it looks that way.

[jay_a2j]

What about gay christians? pro-choice christians? Evolutionist christians? Each has their own interpretation of scripture. Even the heathen Catholics.

Obviously everyone else is wrong. How could that not be the case?

[/quote]


As I stated before, just because a person takes on the label "christian" does NOT automatically make them one. Obviously a "gay christian" isn't following the teachings of the Bible. I don't know if they choose to ignore the passages in scripture that condemn homosexuality or what? But I do know that "homosexuals" (current) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. You can be homosexual BEFORE you come to Christ and He will forgive all your sins. But if you come to Christ and still practice the homosexual lifestyle you better read a little deeper into scripture.

Pro-choice christians? Hmmm I think the same might apply to this group as the "homosexual christian".

Evolutionist christians...I suppose there could be a few genuine Christians who may believe that God used evolution as a method of creation. However, believing in evolution is not a sin. Its just an incorrect belief. As some Christians believe in spiritual gifts and other do not. Neither of these groups are "going to hell" no matter who is right or who is wrong.

[heavycola]

Logically I come out on top to believe... if i am wrong.. then oh well.. what did I lose. nothing.

I choose to believe!!!!!

So why not find out the religion with the worst punishment for non-believers and follow that one?


[quote]Obviously a "gay christian" isn't following the teachings of the Bible. I don't know if they choose to ignore the passages in scripture that condemn homosexuality or what?[quote]
Jay - perhaps gay christians, such as Gene Robinson, are interpreting the bits where jesus says all you have to do is love god, and that god loves all, rather than bits lifted from Leviticus (much of which can be ignored, according to you) or Paul (not the Messiah so perhaps has less clout). The interpretation of scripture is just that. Interpretation. Hence the existence of presbyterians, baptists, lutherans, catholics, methodists, jehovah's witnesses, episcopalians, anglicans..... they are all working from the same source material.

[Beastly]

Logically I come out on top to believe... if i am wrong.. then oh well.. what did I lose. nothing.

I choose to believe!!!!!

So why not find out the religion with the worst punishment for non-believers and follow that one?

What punishment... I don't recieve any punishment...Thats why I choose to believe... I don't even wonder about punishment, because i won't have any... And I don't belong to any religion... I go to church to worship and be taught.. And it doesn't hurt me or anyone else.. So whats your problem with people who have religion??? I don't particularly care for getting involved with any religion, but I certainly don't put anybody down for it... Its just not for me.

Christians are not to suppose to JUDGE who will be saved and who won't....

That is for Christ and Christ only...
Romans 10:6
But the righteousness based on faith [imputed by God and bringing right relationship with Him] says, Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into Heaven? that is, to bring Christ down;


Acts 10:42
And He charged us to preach to the people and to bear solemn testimony that He is the God-appointed and God-ordained Judge of the living and the dead.

2 Timothy 4:1
I CHARGE [you] in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, Who is to judge the living and the dead, and by (in the light of) His coming and His kingdom:

1 Peter 4:4-6
But they will have to give an account to Him Who is ready to judge and pass sentence on the living and the dead.
1 Peter 4:4-6

IT really makes me angry when I see "Christians" Judging people.
YOUR righteousness is like a filthy rag...

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Matthew 7:4 (New Life Version)
4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take that small piece of wood out of your eye,' when there is a big piece of wood in your own eye?



If god has a problem with how someone is living, or sinning or whatever, god deals with it....IF somone decides to committ themselves to Christ, they are not just POOF Fixed... Look at your own unperfectness...
If someone comes to you and asks a ? because they read in the word something that makes them wonder about themselves... you then should be a teacher, and let them follow or not follow...

(New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
James 4:11-12
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?[size=18][/size]

[heavycola]

So whats your problem with people who have religion??? I don't particularly care for getting involved with any religion, but I certainly don't put anybody down for it... Its just not for me.

I don't have a problem, i said that because it sounded as if you were one of the 'might as well believe, i have nothing to lose and everything to gain' crowd. Pascal's wager. I do have a problem with that, because what does faith have to do probabilities?

Anyhoo, lalalala etc.

[jay_a2j]

Christians are not to suppose to JUDGE who will be saved and who won't....

This is true, however we are called to " Go into all the world and preach the gospel". For one to have faith and not share that faith is not producing fruit. If the Bible teaches that certain things are wrong there is nothing wrong with telling others about what God says on the subject. Its not judging the individual. Its "planting seeds". If Christians sat back and waited for people to "ask questions about God", we are passing the buck "leaving it to God". If a person is homosexual I will not judge them, I will not tell them that they are going to "burn in hell". I will point out to them that Gods word condems the lifestyle. Giving them an oppertunity to repent. How would the world know what is pleaseing to God and what is not if we don't tell them? Jesus didn't wait till someone asked him a question to share his faith.

[happysadfun]

If God exists and I don't believe, I go to hell. If God, doesn't exist and I believe nothing happens. If God exists and I believe I go to heaven. The logical solution is to believe.

[happysadfun]

Gay Christians are not Christians. Evolutionist Christians, as it stands the term would be sort of an oxymoron, are ok if they believe Evolution was mastered by god and started with more advancement than a dumb one-celled organism. I personally am not one but I don't believe they are going to Hell.

[heavycola]

This is by the current Archbishop of Canterbury (England's most senior cleric) Rowan Williams, in 1989. "[T]he absolute condemnation of same-sex relations of intimacy must rely either on an abstract fundamentalist deployment of a number of very ambiguous texts, or on a problematic and non-scriptural theory about natural complementarity, applied narrowly and crudely to physical differentiation without regard to psychological structures. I suspect that a fuller exploration of the sexual metaphors of the Bible will have more to teach us about a theology and ethics of sexual desire than will the flat citation of isolated texts".

But he's not christian, oviously, because he doesn't agree with happysadfun or jay_a2j. Will he burn in hell?

[Jolly Roger]

Jolly this is in responce to all your posts: Don't pick and choose verses that you claim are "black and white" as if you are an authority on scripture. There are countless of scholars on the Bible who know what these verses are talking about. Obviously by your posts you are not well versed on what Christians believe or what the Word of God means. Take some time to get some Bible studies, attend a church or something before trying to interpret Gods word. Questioning scripture is one thing but comming up with an interpretation and condemming those who don't READ it that way is another.


God Bless.

I don't need to be an authority on scripture or a Biblical scholar. I can read and it says what it says. If Biblical scholars "know" that it says something different than what it says, then I'd be inclined not to pay any attention to them since they clearly cannot see the forest for the trees. I'm not trying to interpret anything since no interpretation is required. I didn't question what it says either - it just says what it says. It is strange that "sell everything you own" is subjected to interpretation by some of the same people who would have Genesis taught in science class, talking snakes and all, no interpretation necessary. My point was that it is the religious right picking and choosing the verses and the bit about selling everything you own is not often picked for some reason. Here's a question: why do you suppose the religious right spends so much time and money lobbying against gay marriage and so little time and money lobbying for legislation against greed? Greed's a pretty serious problem; it's even a deadly sin. Why isn't this on the agenda? Didn't JC spend a lot of time talking about greed and very little time talking about homosexuality? The religious right appears to make a very big deal about homosexuality while the issue of greed, which is addressed directly by your saviour, has the televangelists and Conservative politicians running for their mansions.

[heavycola]

^^^^ very well said.

[vtmarik]

Christians are not to suppose to JUDGE who will be saved and who won't....

This is true, however we are called to " Go into all the world and preach the gospel". For one to have faith and not share that faith is not producing fruit. If the Bible teaches that certain things are wrong there is nothing wrong with telling others about what God says on the subject. Its not judging the individual. Its "planting seeds". If Christians sat back and waited for people to "ask questions about God", we are passing the buck "leaving it to God". If a person is homosexual I will not judge them, I will not tell them that they are going to "burn in hell". I will point out to them that Gods word condems the lifestyle. Giving them an oppertunity to repent. How would the world know what is pleaseing to God and what is not if we don't tell them? Jesus didn't wait till someone asked him a question to share his faith.

True, but "preach the gospel" isn't the same as "force it down people's throats" which is what teaching the Bible in school would be.

To quote The West Wing:

School prayer, it's not about religion or freedom. It's about the four year old kid who gets beaten up at recess for sitting out of the organized prayer. It's just another way of making kids different from each other.

In order to preserve religious freedom in the country, it is necessary for religion to stay out of government. Our arch-nemesis du jour is a group of people who have made their religion into law. The religious right talks big when a Christian is going to be executed in a Muslim nation, but they don't actually get anything accomplished. But if two guys want to share the rest of their lives with each other and have the same rights as a man and a woman do, we have to call it something different than marriage?

Where's the perspective here?

[Pilate]

If God exists and I don't believe, I go to hell. If God, doesn't exist and I believe nothing happens. If God exists and I believe I go to heaven. The logical solution is to believe.

South Park quite adequately ridiculed this foolish theory.