Egypt's Revolution (Poll added)

[bedub1]

What do you think of it? Do you support the people? Or the president?

If the people ask for help to setup a democracy, and to overthrow the president, should your country help them? would you be willing to send troops?

[patches70]

What makes you think it will end up a democracy?

You asking if we should send troops to help the people of Egypt overthrow their government to set up a democracy, I would have to answer a resounding "Absolutely not."

You see, the use of military force to bring liberal democracy to autocratic nations is an ideal of the Neo-con, and our founding fathers disagreed with that thinking all together. To spread democracy the founders envisioned that we lead by example and stay out of the affairs of other nations.

This is an internal Egyptian matter, it is not our business to interfere. We don't have the right nor the moral ground to do so.
What if the people, using a democratic process, decide to turn to an Islamic Fundalmentalist Government that is hostile to our own country? The Egyptian people could well decide to do that themselves, should we be a part of making that happen?

No, it is none of our business. You see, neighbors get along much better when everyone tends to their own garden.....

[Night Strike]

With the Muslim Brotherhood getting involved in the riots, there's no way we should support the rioters. Some are doing it in good faith because they want a democracy, but that's not what they're going to get once the radical Muslim group moves into the power vacuum caused by the possible overthrow. It will be much better for the world to have a dictator that's friendly to the western world than having another dictatorship like Iran. From what I know about the overthrow of the Shah, this shows all the similarities.

[jigger1986]

I 100% support the revolution in Egypt. However, the is no chance in hell any country will send troops there with the state its in now. No developed country could risk going into Egypt to fight a revolutionary war for fear of the consequences. However, this doesnt mean that I dont think that If this were to escalate things wouldnt change. Scenario: Israel heavy arms its southern coast, and heightens all military personal in the country. Syrian/Lebanon use this as an excuse to heighten their "Anti-Israeli" procedures, Israel defends itself and Iran uses this excuse to mobilize against Israel. Westerners going into Egypt would/could be looked upon the Arab world as attack on Islam.

One of the major problems in the middle east is borders. Living in Canada, only 4 hours away from the American border I take for granted, (or at least pre 9/11) the defined political set borders. This isnt the case in the Middle East as much. Gaza, Golan Heights, Sinai and even farther east into Kuwait, disputed borders tend to shape only the countries politically,geographically, but ethnically there are few borders. Where as in the north-western hemisphere people would call themselves a Canadian or an American. Im many places in the middle east people would call themselves Arabs or Persians, even though they are not Saudis and Persia (politically) is not a country.
Sorry that got off topic. It just seems that we live in a world now where any issue in the Middle East is viewed as, and could possibly be a major cause or starter of a Iran-Israel/WWIII type war.

[aage]

Yeah, I suppose we should launch an all-out assault on that country. Their government is corrupted as hell. Their citizens haven't ever heard of the word "Democracy".
After we are done with these buggers, we're onto Belarus.




If the Egyptians really want this government to go away, I suppose they'll manage to do so. There is no government without a people.

[radiojake]

With the Muslim Brotherhood getting involved in the riots, there's no way we should support the rioters. Some are doing it in good faith because they want a democracy, but that's not what they're going to get once the radical Muslim group moves into the power vacuum caused by the possible overthrow. It will be much better for the world to have a dictator that's friendly to the western world than having another dictatorship like Iran. From what I know about the overthrow of the Shah, this shows all the similarities.

You are paranoid

[bedub1]

Crowds marching past CNN's bureau in downtown Cairo held signs that said "Adios Mubarak" and "America it's time to do the right thing."

Egyptian activist and Nobel peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei says President Hosni Mubarak should step down in order to end days of protests against his rule.

The former head of the United Nations nuclear monitoring agency told media outlets Saturday that President Mubarak's speech Friday, in which he pledged to form a new government, was "disappointing" to Egyptians.

ElBaradei said Mr. Mubarak has failed to meet the people's political, economic and social demands. He said they want to build a new Egypt that is free and democratic.

No, it is none of our business. You see, neighbors get along much better when everyone tends to their own garden.....

If my neighbors wife is being beaten and cry's out for help I should just watch her get killed? I couldn't disagree more with your logic.

Yeah, I suppose we should launch an all-out assault on that country. Their government is corrupted as hell. Their citizens haven't ever heard of the word "Democracy".
After we are done with these buggers, we're onto Belarus.



If the Egyptians really want this government to go away, I suppose they'll manage to do so. There is no government without a people.

That's not even close to what I said. No, I don't think anybody should launch an all-out assault on their country. But if their citizens ask for help, would you be willing to help them?

According to your last line...you would let them "figure it out for themselves".

[Night Strike]

With the Muslim Brotherhood getting involved in the riots, there's no way we should support the rioters. Some are doing it in good faith because they want a democracy, but that's not what they're going to get once the radical Muslim group moves into the power vacuum caused by the possible overthrow. It will be much better for the world to have a dictator that's friendly to the western world than having another dictatorship like Iran. From what I know about the overthrow of the Shah, this shows all the similarities.

You are paranoid

Really? What happened in Iran when a Muslim extremist group took power from a US-friendly government? This riot is NOT about democracy to them: it's about establishing another radical state in the Middle East.

[Woodruff]

With the Muslim Brotherhood getting involved in the riots, there's no way we should support the rioters. Some are doing it in good faith because they want a democracy, but that's not what they're going to get once the radical Muslim group moves into the power vacuum caused by the possible overthrow. It will be much better for the world to have a dictator that's friendly to the western world than having another dictatorship like Iran. From what I know about the overthrow of the Shah, this shows all the similarities.

You are paranoid

Really? What happened in Iran when a Muslim extremist group took power from a US-friendly government? This riot is NOT about democracy to them: it's about establishing another radical state in the Middle East.

The overthrow of the Shah was not at all done in the name of Democracy. In fact, it was precisely the opposite - it was explicitly done as a means to re-instate a theocracy. The current situation in Egypt is not analogous to the situation in Iran at that time.

Could it possibly end up that way? Of course...we can't really know. But to try to equate the two really is paranoid.

[esiemer]

If their citizens ask for help, I would hope that we would help. But it would have to be an international agency, not just the USA or EU that came in to save the day, and the international force would have to be there to keep the peace only until the new government is established, then it would have to GTFO.

people need to create their own government or else they won't believe in it/trust it. look at Iraq, we are doing our best to give them a fair gov't that works for them, but it's not an easy task.

also, this should make us all very thankful and appreciative of how lucky the USA is. after we won our revolution, Washington could have made himself dictator. how many revolutions end with a new dictator instead of fully functional democracy?

[Night Strike]

The overthrow of the Shah was not at all done in the name of Democracy. In fact, it was precisely the opposite - it was explicitly done as a means to re-instate a theocracy. The current situation in Egypt is not analogous to the situation in Iran at that time.

Could it possibly end up that way? Of course...we can't really know. But to try to equate the two really is paranoid.

Although the revolution started with calls for Democracy, the Muslim Brotherhood has now stepped in as a leading organization in the riot and will be the most powerful opposition group if the government falls. That's the same group that started Hamas and al-Qaieda and has the full support of the Iranian government. Sounds like a horrible chance to take, both for the Egyptian people and the US and our allies. If we wanted to support a democratic revolution, we should have supported the Iranian people instead of running and hiding to placate Ahmadinijad.

[esiemer]

With the Muslim Brotherhood getting involved in the riots, there's no way we should support the rioters. Some are doing it in good faith because they want a democracy, but that's not what they're going to get once the radical Muslim group moves into the power vacuum caused by the possible overthrow. It will be much better for the world to have a dictator that's friendly to the western world than having another dictatorship like Iran. From what I know about the overthrow of the Shah, this shows all the similarities.

You are paranoid

Really? What happened in Iran when a Muslim extremist group took power from a US-friendly government? This riot is NOT about democracy to them: it's about establishing another radical state in the Middle East.

This is a vastly different situation. I'll point out one big example: the internet.
There was no internet during the Iranian revolution. Knowledge is power and the internet is knowledge. Egypt trying to shut it down shows how dangerous knowledge and communication are to dictators.

[bedub1]

If their citizens ask for help, I would hope that we would help. But it would have to be an international agency, not just the USA or EU that came in to save the day, and the international force would have to be there to keep the peace only until the new government is established, then it would have to GTFO.

people need to create their own government or else they won't believe in it/trust it. look at Iraq, we are doing our best to give them a fair gov't that works for them, but it's not an easy task.

also, this should make us all very thankful and appreciative of how lucky the USA is. after we won our revolution, Washington could have made himself dictator. how many revolutions end with a new dictator instead of fully functional democracy?

I couldn't agree more.

I would personally like to thank France for the assistance they provided the 13 Colonies in our Revolutionary War against Great Britain. Without your/their help, we never would have succeeded. I also understand that Spain and the Dutch Republic played a role also in helping keep Great Britain busy at home and too spread out to fight us properly. Thank You.

[Baron Von PWN]

I think the US is doing what it should be doing. That is urging the Egyptian government to give in to the demands of its people. Anything more would be inappropriate as it has no business interfering, anything less would be scandalous for going against its ideals.

The protests so far don't seem to have an Islamic bent, sure the Muslim brotherhood has supported the protests but they've done so a week after the fact. I think the protests have a life of their own at the moment and likely won't stop untill a caretaker government is in place to oversee a fair election.

[Baron Von PWN]

The overthrow of the Shah was not at all done in the name of Democracy. In fact, it was precisely the opposite - it was explicitly done as a means to re-instate a theocracy. The current situation in Egypt is not analogous to the situation in Iran at that time.

Could it possibly end up that way? Of course...we can't really know. But to try to equate the two really is paranoid.

Although the revolution started with calls for Democracy, the Muslim Brotherhood has now stepped in as a leading organization in the riot and will be the most powerful opposition group if the government falls. That's the same group that started Hamas and al-Qaieda and has the full support of the Iranian government. Sounds like a horrible chance to take, both for the Egyptian people and the US and our allies. If we wanted to support a democratic revolution, we should have supported the Iranian people instead of running and hiding to placate Ahmadinijad.

leading? They've announced support not the same as leading. Those are some rather extreme claims to make, anything to corroborate them? Especially considering the group has condemned terrorism.

Edit* from a guy at the protests. "Muslim Brotherhood chanting Allah Akbar. Crowd stopped them chanting louder: Muslim, Christian, we're all Egyptian"

[saxitoxin]

Obama Regime Affirms Support for Egyptian Strongman

- Vice-President Biden says Mubarak "no dictator"
- President Biden says Mubarak should not resign or buckle-in
- President Biden praises Mubarak as a loyal "ally" (wink wink) of U.S. global power
- President Biden urges protesters to stop provocations
- President Biden said further study required to see which, if any, requests for reform by protesters are "legitimate"
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchan ... -step-down

I'm sure Israel is shitting their pants right now at the prospect of someone other than Mubarak being next door and ordered Obama to get things under control. Will Obama use U.S. drones to get rid of Mubarak opponents, like he does in Pakistan, I wonder?

Two Aging Rulers / Good Friends:

[Ray Rider]

The overthrow of the Shah was not at all done in the name of Democracy. In fact, it was precisely the opposite - it was explicitly done as a means to re-instate a theocracy. The current situation in Egypt is not analogous to the situation in Iran at that time.

Could it possibly end up that way? Of course...we can't really know. But to try to equate the two really is paranoid.

Although the revolution started with calls for Democracy, the Muslim Brotherhood has now stepped in as a leading organization in the riot and will be the most powerful opposition group if the government falls. That's the same group that started Hamas and al-Qaieda and has the full support of the Iranian government. Sounds like a horrible chance to take, both for the Egyptian people and the US and our allies. If we wanted to support a democratic revolution, we should have supported the Iranian people instead of running and hiding to placate Ahmadinijad.

leading? They've announced support not the same as leading. Those are some rather extreme claims to make, anything to corroborate them? Especially considering the group has condemned terrorism.

Edit* from a guy at the protests. "Muslim Brotherhood chanting Allah Akbar. Crowd stopped them chanting louder: Muslim, Christian, we're all Egyptian"

A number of years back my friend and two other Christians were kidnapped by the Muslim Brotherhood and sentenced to be executed. Thanks to a war that broke out, my friend was able to escape, but the other two had already been executed. Whether the Muslim Brotherhood has condemned terrorism or not is meaningless until they show by their actions that they have given up all violence as a means to spread their philosophy.

I'm sure Israel is shitting their pants right now at the prospect of someone other than Mubarak being next door and ordered Obama to get things under control.

Are you out of your mind?! Do you seriously think Israel can order the US around?? Please don't tell me you're part of Ahmadinejad's conspiracy club that believes that the world is run by Zionists...

If the supporters are serious about desiring freedom and representation in government, then good for them! However it seems like the protests are largely disorganized and there is no other party capable of taking power, besides possibly the Muslim Brotherhood, in which case it might turn out like Iran with the Shah being replaced by a radical Muslim regime or like Gaza with Hamas being voted into power. Too often throughout the last few centuries we have seen a massive popular uprising in a repressive nation force the ruling party out of office, only to have a reign of terror follow or a far more ruthless strong man step forward and seize power. I fear for what may happen now in Egypt...

[Woodruff]

If we wanted to support a democratic revolution, we should have supported the Iranian people instead of running and hiding to placate Ahmadinijad.

You'll get no argument from me on that point.

[patches70]

OP asked if we should send troops. Of course we shouldn't. Unless we are attacked or seriously believe Egypt is about to attack us, then we shouldn't be sending troops no matter how bad the Egyptians get to each other. It is none of our business.

Imagine if other countries during the 60's as the students at Kent were getting gunned down, tried to send troops to our soil to help the hippies? How would we have reacted if during the civil rights movement the Soviet Union sent troops to force the US government to enact civil rights legislation?

As for other support for Egypt, we already send them $2 billion a year in foreign aid, what more should we do?

And if we actually think Egypt would move to being a democracy, which is a stretch considering the history in the region,
why would we think that would be better for the US?

Why do people think that Democratic nations by default get along in the first place?

Look at history.

The War of 1812, Wellington (British Democratic government) was our enemy, the Tyrant Napoleon our ally.

During the Mexican War, Britain (democratic) helped Mexico (autocratic), not us.

During our own Civil War, Russia (autocratic) wished us well, Britain (democratic) wished us to be weakened.

Democratic Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland were neutral during WWII, Soviet Russia (autocratic) took the full brunt of abuse from the Axis and did most of the dying for the Allies. Toss in Chiang Kai-shek (autocratic China), they died by the buckets for the cause of the allies.

Vietnam, South Korea (autocratic at the time, the 2nd republic of South Korea was overthrow and a military government followed in 1961) and Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines sent troops. Britain and France (democracies) traded with the North Vietnamese.

France denied Reagan overflight rights for his F-111s to hit Moammar Gadhafi's Libya in retaliation for a terrorist attack, but Portugal's dictatorship gave permission for Nixon to use the Azores as a fueling station in resupplying Israel during the Yom Kippur war.

Ought not nations judge friends less by the ideals they profess than by how they behave when you need them most?


Look in just the recent past-

These autocratic regimes that fall and given the chance for open elections, look who gets elected.
In Egypt, Lebanon and Palestine, the winners were the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah and Hamas.

The largest democracies in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and Asia -- Brazil, South Africa, Turkey and India -- are all moving away from the United States. Brazil and India are lining up with China to oppose limits on carbon emissions that would impede their growth.

India and China are resisting concessions to save the Doha Round of trade negotiations. South Africa leads the continent in sheltering the racist tyranny of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Brazil and Turkey launched a joint diplomatic initiative to help Iran break free of its U.S.-imposed isolation and of the U.N. sanctions regime.


In Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Egypt, anti-Americanism and fundamentalist fever are both running high. Why would we want free elections in these nations if the inevitable result would be regimes far more hostile to our interests than the present governments?

Turkey is democratic and moving away from the US in leaps and bounds on many issues, involving security among economic issues as well.

America would do well to downgrade the ideological component of its foreign policy and start putting her national interests first.

It is not in our National Interest to be sending troops into Egypt.

[BigBallinStalin]

What do you think of it? Do you support the people? Or the president?

If the people ask for help to setup a democracy, and to overthrow the president, should your country help them? would you be willing to send troops?

Help how? Send troops to support which party? What about backfire? Are nearby countries getting involved, and which ones, and which groups are they supporting?

Anyway, the "president" of Egypt isn't really a president, so f*ck that guy. It makes sense to see so many people pissed at the government.

[bedub1]

And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.

I recommend the US cut off ALL foreign support, money, people etc. Pull back ALL troops from outside the US borders.

[Baron Von PWN]

OP asked if we should send troops. Of course we shouldn't. Unless we are attacked or seriously believe Egypt is about to attack us, then we shouldn't be sending troops no matter how bad the Egyptians get to each other. It is none of our business.

Imagine if other countries during the 60's as the students at Kent were getting gunned down, tried to send troops to our soil to help the hippies? How would we have reacted if during the civil rights movement the Soviet Union sent troops to force the US government to enact civil rights legislation?

As for other support for Egypt, we already send them $2 billion a year in foreign aid, what more should we do?

And if we actually think Egypt would move to being a democracy, which is a stretch considering the history in the region,
why would we think that would be better for the US?

Why do people think that Democratic nations by default get along in the first place?

Look at history.

The War of 1812, Wellington (British Democratic government) was our enemy, the Tyrant Napoleon our ally.

During the Mexican War, Britain (democratic) helped Mexico (autocratic), not us.

During our own Civil War, Russia (autocratic) wished us well, Britain (democratic) wished us to be weakened.

You're assuming Britain was truly democratic nation at those times, yet they had a massive empire which subjugated millions.

Democratic Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland were neutral during WWII, Soviet Russia (autocratic) took the full brunt of abuse from the Axis and did most of the dying for the Allies. Toss in Chiang Kai-shek (autocratic China), they died by the buckets for the cause of the allies.

For the allied cause? or because they had been invaded?

Stalin was perfectly happy to watch Hitler invade western Europe.

Look in just the recent past-

These autocratic regimes that fall and given the chance for open elections, look who gets elected.
In Egypt, Lebanon and Palestine, the winners were the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah and Hamas.

There has to date been no election in Egypt, much less an election won by the MB. The protests were not launched by the Islamic brotherhood, they have simply jumped on the bandwagon in the last couple of days.

Hamas is in charge of only the Gaza strip and that after launching a coup. Any election held under their authority is highly suspect.

The largest democracies in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and Asia -- Brazil, South Africa, Turkey and India -- are all moving away from the United States. Brazil and India are lining up with China to oppose limits on carbon emissions that would impede their growth.

India and China are resisting concessions to save the Doha Round of trade negotiations. South Africa leads the continent in sheltering the racist tyranny of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Brazil and Turkey launched a joint diplomatic initiative to help Iran break free of its U.S.-imposed isolation and of the U.N. sanctions regime.


In Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Egypt, anti-Americanism and fundamentalist fever are both running high. Why would we want free elections in these nations if the inevitable result would be regimes far more hostile to our interests than the present governments?

Turkey is democratic and moving away from the US in leaps and bounds on many issues, involving security among economic issues as well.

America would do well to downgrade the ideological component of its foreign policy and start putting her national interests first.

It is not in our National Interest to be sending troops into Egypt.

Man I wonder why all these democracies are unhapy with the us? I wonder if it has anything to do with propping up corrupt dictatorships like Mubaraks regime? nahh must just be because they hate America.

[BigBallinStalin]

With the Muslim Brotherhood getting involved in the riots, there's no way we should support the rioters. Some are doing it in good faith because they want a democracy, but that's not what they're going to get once the radical Muslim group moves into the power vacuum caused by the possible overthrow. It will be much better for the world to have a dictator that's friendly to the western world than having another dictatorship like Iran. From what I know about the overthrow of the Shah, this shows all the similarities.

Do you know who the Muslim Brotherhood is? And how have they evolved over the decades?

.... [read rest of your post]

Do you even think when you type or do you just butt-hump your keyboard--if so, you type very skillfully with your butt-humping technique.

[BigBallinStalin]

Obama Regime Affirms Support for Egyptian Strongman

- Vice-President Biden says Mubarak "no dictator"
- President Biden says Mubarak should not resign or buckle-in
- President Biden praises Mubarak as a loyal "ally" (wink wink) of U.S. global power
- President Biden urges protesters to stop provocations
- President Biden said further study required to see which, if any, requests for reform by protesters are "legitimate"
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchan ... -step-down

I'm sure Israel is shitting their pants right now at the prospect of someone other than Mubarak being next door and ordered Obama to get things under control. Will Obama use U.S. drones to get rid of Mubarak opponents, like he does in Pakistan, I wonder?

Two Aging Rulers / Good Friends:

Agreed, but it's not just Obama. The US has been pretty much the same internationally for the best 12 years (and to a lesser degree of similarity but not much more different over the past 30 years, and marginally less and less as time goes on).


Anyone here ever read the White Papers released by the DoD around 2008ish?

They've fervently supported the "democracy" in Egypt which 'has been making great leaps and bounds towards a more democratic country. I was considering editing their paper and correcting their rubbish mistakes, but I don't want to risk being monitored any more than now. =P

[BigBallinStalin]

I'm sure Israel is shitting their pants right now at the prospect of someone other than Mubarak being next door and ordered Obama to get things under control.

Are you out of your mind?! Do you seriously think Israel can order the US around?? Please don't tell me you're part of Ahmadinejad's conspiracy club that believes that the world is run by Zionists...

If the supporters are serious about desiring freedom and representation in government, then good for them! However it seems like the protests are largely disorganized and there is no other party capable of taking power, besides possibly the Muslim Brotherhood, in which case it might turn out like Iran with the Shah being replaced by a radical Muslim regime or like Gaza with Hamas being voted into power. Too often throughout the last few centuries we have seen a massive popular uprising in a repressive nation force the ruling party out of office, only to have a reign of terror follow or a far more ruthless strong man step forward and seize power. I fear for what may happen now in Egypt...

lol, looks like Ray Rider just woke up to the realization that the Jewish Lobby in the US is extremely powerful. We can't order Israel around to do certain things, which in turn means that Israel can ignore US demands---that in a sense is ordering the US around.

Certainly, it's more complicated than how you worded it, but through Lobbyist support, Israel can guarantee massive amounts of annual funds (nearly always militaristic) for its own purposes at the expense of the US people.