What do you think secularism means?

[Symmetry]

I've had a few debates about what secularism means recently. I'm kind of curious about how you guys and gals would define it. I guess some people use it as a kind of opposite term to religious belief, but I've always seen it as a way of protecting equality of religion in the public sphere. I've never really equated it to atheism, which seems to be the way that it's being interpreted recently.

Anyway, what does secularism mean for you? What would be a secular society? And would it be a good thing?

[the carpet man]

www.dictionary.com

you are welcome

[Symmetry]

http://www.dictionary.com

you are welcome

So, roughly speaking, you think it means whatever dictionary.com says it means?

[the carpet man]

the 'dictionary definition' is good enough for me

as the the questions at the end of your first post, i guess it depends on what you want. scandinavia is very secular and always looks very nice. but then middle east and some african countries still have a religion, and they are also pretty cool. i do not think secularism or non-secularism has an effect on the quality of the country

most of the world is secular now, though

[patches70]

Separation of church and state is secularism. Those that equate it to atheism don't understand the definition of secularism.

Political decisions and matters of state decided by being unbiased by religious beliefs.

The US- Secular.
Iran- Not secular, but theocratic.

[Symmetry]

Separation of church and state is secularism. Those that equate it to atheism don't understand the definition of secularism.

Political decisions and matters of state decided by being unbiased by religious beliefs.

The US- Secular.
Iran- Not secular, but theocratic.

I think that's pretty solid, and it's generally the way I think about it. I'm not religious, unless you count atheism as a religion, but I see secularism as a way of protecting religious belief against state control in favour of a single religious belief more than anything.

[patches70]

Separation of church and state is secularism. Those that equate it to atheism don't understand the definition of secularism.

Political decisions and matters of state decided by being unbiased by religious beliefs.

The US- Secular.
Iran- Not secular, but theocratic.

I think that's pretty solid, and it's generally the way I think about it. I'm not religious, unless you count atheism as a religion, but I see secularism as a way of protecting religious belief against state control in favour of a single religious belief more than anything.

Ya, it's probably better for a society if government remains neutral in such matters as to which religion is "right". Secularism isn't a bad thing and I think I'd rather prefer to live in a secular society than a theocratic society. I in no way associate secular=atheist.

Hell, I'd be more afraid of some Preacher-King saying I have to be executed because "God told him to".

[kentington]

I have always used it in terms of religious v worldly things. Ideas, music, whatever.
Jesus loves me - non-secular
Baby baby oh - secular

[chang50]

Separation of church and state is secularism. Those that equate it to atheism don't understand the definition of secularism.

Political decisions and matters of state decided by being unbiased by religious beliefs.

The US- Secular.
Iran- Not secular, but theocratic.

I think that's pretty solid, and it's generally the way I think about it. I'm not religious, unless you count atheism as a religion, but I see secularism as a way of protecting religious belief against state control in favour of a single religious belief more than anything.

Yet curiously a country that has an established church,the UK is way less religious than one that has seperation of church and state the US.Could it be reasonably said the UK is less secular than the US?

[comic boy]

In theory rhat might be true but you need only look at the current Republican bunfights to realise that the USA is far less secular than it would like us to believe.

[chang50]

In theory rhat might be true but you need only look at the current Republican bunfights to realise that the USA is far less secular than it would like us to believe.

Exactly,there is at least a paradox at work here.When I look at the high percentage of religious whackjobs in the US I struggle to see it as secular despite the seperation of church and state.The UK does not have Falwells,Robertsons,Hovinds,Phelps,etc, ad nauseam.

[Symmetry]

Separation of church and state is secularism. Those that equate it to atheism don't understand the definition of secularism.

Political decisions and matters of state decided by being unbiased by religious beliefs.

The US- Secular.
Iran- Not secular, but theocratic.

I think that's pretty solid, and it's generally the way I think about it. I'm not religious, unless you count atheism as a religion, but I see secularism as a way of protecting religious belief against state control in favour of a single religious belief more than anything.

Yet curiously a country that has an established church,the UK is way less religious than one that has seperation of church and state the US.Could it be reasonably said the UK is less secular than the US?

I think that's a reasonable argument, absolutely, but that also links into my point- secular countries are good for religious belief.

[everywhere116]

Separation of church and state is secularism. Those that equate it to atheism don't understand the definition of secularism.

Political decisions and matters of state decided by being unbiased by religious beliefs.

The US- Secular.
Iran- Not secular, but theocratic.

I think that's pretty solid, and it's generally the way I think about it. I'm not religious, unless you count atheism as a religion, but I see secularism as a way of protecting religious belief against state control in favour of a single religious belief more than anything.

Yet curiously a country that has an established church,the UK is way less religious than one that has seperation of church and state the US.Could it be reasonably said the UK is less secular than the US?

I think that's a reasonable argument, absolutely, but that also links into my point- secular countries are good for religious belief.

Paradoxical, indeed.

Why do you think this is, if there is indeed a causation underneath the negative correlation?

[chang50]

Separation of church and state is secularism. Those that equate it to atheism don't understand the definition of secularism.

Political decisions and matters of state decided by being unbiased by religious beliefs.

The US- Secular.
Iran- Not secular, but theocratic.

I think that's pretty solid, and it's generally the way I think about it. I'm not religious, unless you count atheism as a religion, but I see secularism as a way of protecting religious belief against state control in favour of a single religious belief more than anything.

Yet curiously a country that has an established church,the UK is way less religious than one that has seperation of church and state the US.Could it be reasonably said the UK is less secular than the US?

I think that's a reasonable argument, absolutely, but that also links into my point- secular countries are good for religious belief.

Paradoxical, indeed.

Why do you think this is, if there is indeed a causation underneath the negative correlation?

I've pondered this one for many years without coming up with a really satisfactory answer.Although the Cof E is the established church,and bishops sit in the house of lords,its basically an irrelevance in the day to day affairs of the nation,tolerated like an eccentric old relative who means well but is rarely listened to.Nothing like a theocracy as in Iran.The UK is one of the most secular places on earth.Why the seperation of church and state in the US appears to have produced a less secular society can only be guessed at,perhaps it causes resentment amongst the religious who seem to like a attatch pseudo importance to their speculations and beliefs.

[thegreekdog]

In theory rhat might be true but you need only look at the current Republican bunfights to realise that the USA is far less secular than it would like us to believe.

I disagree. The US is highly secularized. Republican debates are just that - Republican debates. Unless and until laws are passed with religious intent, I'm not concerned about the theocratization of the United States.

[PLAYER57832]

I've had a few debates about what secularism means recently. I'm kind of curious about how you guys and gals would define it. I guess some people use it as a kind of opposite term to religious belief, but I've always seen it as a way of protecting equality of religion in the public sphere. I've never really equated it to atheism, which seems to be the way that it's being interpreted recently.

Anyway, what does secularism mean for you? What would be a secular society? And would it be a good thing?

Like many terms, it began with one meaning, but is being changed to suit folks political rhetoric


Here, from the free dictionary

sec·u·lar·ism (sky-l-rzm)
n.
1. Religious skepticism or indifference.
2. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

A few years ago, no one would have disputed the second definition. But, the religious right has ensured that the first is the definition many would claim for the term.. and that does relate to atheism, which the right is trained to see as one of their "arch enemy" thoughts.



What I find disturbing, and indicative of the trend is that when I first "googled" this, I got no less than 10 (stopped counting them) sites specific to RELIGION, specifically what seemed to be conservative Christian sites, ranging from "questioning your faith" to "is secularism invading society", etc. In other words, the FIRST things presented are not the objective dictionary information that one might think should show, but rather highly targeted "agenda" sites. I do not think this cooincidental. AND, it is very much part of why so many people are getting a heavier and heavier bias toward conservative Christian views.

BUT, to confuse this more, here is the Miriam Webster definition of secular:

Definition of SECULAR
1a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c : not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>
2: not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>
3a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>
— sec·u·lar·i·ty \ˌse-kyə-ˈla-rə-tē\ noun
— sec·u·lar·ly \ˈse-kyə-lər-lē\ adverb

Quite different, indeed.

[natty dread]

In other words, the FIRST things presented are not the objective dictionary information that one might think should show, but rather highly targeted "agenda" sites. I do not think this cooincidental.

You're right, it's not coincidental. But probably not in the way you think...

Google (if you let it) collects information from your computer about your browsing habits, your search history, etc. and then uses it to guesstimate which search results you are likely to be most interested in. In this case, for whatever reason, google seems to think that those kinds of sites interest you the most. Maybe you've googled religion-related things recently, or visited religious sites...

That same information is also used to target advertising for you. Most of the banner ads you see are from google's ad networks, and google uses the information collected from you to decide what kind of ads to show you.

It's all very sinister, sure, but there's really no right-wing agenda here, just a make-money-for-google agenda.

[PLAYER57832]

In other words, the FIRST things presented are not the objective dictionary information that one might think should show, but rather highly targeted "agenda" sites. I do not think this cooincidental.

You're right, it's not coincidental. But probably not in the way you think...

Google (if you let it) collects information from your computer about your browsing habits, your search history, etc. and then uses it to guesstimate which search results you are likely to be most interested in. In this case, for whatever reason, google seems to think that those kinds of sites interest you the most. Maybe you've googled religion-related things recently, or visited religious sites...

That same information is also used to target advertising for you. Most of the banner ads you see are from google's ad networks, and google uses the information collected from you to decide what kind of ads to show you.

It's all very sinister, sure, but there's really no right-wing agenda here, just a make-money-for-google agenda.

Sometimes it doesn't matter if INTENT is evil. in fact, some of the worst events happen with fully good intentions.

And, it also points to some "interesting" google analysis. I actually don't target a lot of Christian type sites. And, when I re-searched, I got a completely different list. That leads me to believe there was something else at play here than my specific algorythms.