Any plumbers here? I need advice

[nietzsche]

Anyone??

[BigBallinStalin]

For the price of typing advice on an internet form, I'll provide you a service of comparable quality.

[Dukasaur]

E. Howard Hunt is dead, but I hear G. Gordon Liddy is still alive.

[Army of GOD]

delete system 32

[natty dread]

my father was a plumber

[Lootifer]

im a chemical engineer, kinda like a degree in plumbing?

[Army of GOD]

im a chemical engineer, kinda like a degree in plumbing?

in that they both are related to shit

[Lootifer]

ZING!

[KoolBak]

30 years experience of fixing normal problems, but I aint no $100 / hour buttcrack ;o) Whats your issue?

[nietzsche]

Ok here it goes.

I live in a small town where water pressure is not so high, so I have a cistern where the water arrives, and from there a centrifugal pump moves it to the water tank on the roof. Now I've had problems with the pump forever, basically you gotta prime it very often and lately they just die every 6 months. Also I have a pressure problem, and every time I'm in a hotel I realise how great it's to have a lot of pressure for the shower.

So I went into a pumps store and they recommended a submersible pump between the cistern and the water tank and a pressure pump after the water tank. They said a pressure pump for two outlets its ok, since I really only care for pressure in the shower, and there are only 2.

So they arrive tomorrow to the store and I'm picking them up, but, I have on idea of how to install the submersible pump and worse, I have a feeling that it would stop working soon enough and replacing it every year will be a pain in the ass. The cistern is a very old cistern, made of concrete, and the access that was once perhaps 80cmx80cm has been reduced to maybe 50cmx50cm and with the floater and all, I don't think I can fit in to install the pump! So it would be a pain in the ass to install and I want to be sure it's my right solution. So any comments on this?


And on the pressure pump, do I need a tank? Or can I just turn it off (it has two switchs, one on the pump and a remote one) when I'm not taking a shower and everything is ok? Does any of you have one and turn it on and off? Are they noisy? Do I need a bigger one ?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

The submersible pump should be pretty easy to install, if you can get in the cistern of course. It should just be a matter of affixing it somehow. Other than getting it in there, I don't foresee any problems with it. It all depends on how good it is, I suppose.

I'm not sure about the pressure pump. I would assume you need the tank on the roof. I would hazard a guess that newer ones would be fairly automatic, and start up whenever you turn the water on. I'm not too sure, though. The (hillbilly) setup we had when I was a kid was a centrifugal pump bringing water from the creek, up in elevation about 200-250 feet into a 5000 gallon tank, which was about 50 feet above our house. We didn't need a pressure pump because the tank was so much farther up a hill. I don't know if that's viable for you, though.

-TG

[KoolBak]

Yeah, wow dude,,,,,NO idea

Have you tried to find forums on these particular issues???

[Dukasaur]

Sounds like your first issue is to fix the cistern. You have to be able to get in and out of there. And furthermore, if you've been killing pumps every six months there's a good chance of detritus at the bottom (which I would suspect anyway if accumulated scale has made the entrance shrink.)

I think your first priority is to empty the cistern, clean it out and scrape off the scale. If you can get by without running water for a few days I would even dry it out and paint it with a modern sealer. (You might have saved the life of your last few pumps if you had done this sooner.)

Once you're in the tank, installing a submersible pump is a piece of cake. It really is easy. But without good access it will become a horror movie.

If you have a tank on the roof, I'm surprised you need a secondary pump. The potential energy from the elevated position should be enough. If it isn't, you might consider raising it a little higher; that might be enough, but an even better step might be to increase the diameter of the pipe leading into the house. Too-narrow pipes are the number one reason for water pressure complaints. If neither raising the tank nor improving the pipe are options, then you'll have to go with the pressure pump, but it seems really costly relative to the first two options.

[natty dread]

Ok see, you have to do it like this!



After you build that thing, you will easily achieve results around this range:



If that's not enough for your needs, you can build an additional plug-in to the apparatus with these instructions:



Glad to be of help! Free of charge!

[Serbia]

You should call a carpenter.

[oVo]

an even better step might be to increase the diameter of the pipe leading into the house. Too-narrow pipes are the number one reason for water pressure complaints.

This was the first thing that came to my mind, also the diameter of pipe/hose leading from the Cistern. The short life of previous pumps is a problem that needs solved, are previous pumps working too hard to provide the water you need, because of an obstruction, diameter of pipe, some form of corrosion etc.

[KoolBak]

I would LOVE to see pix of the aforementioned items you're working with ;o)

[Lootifer]

If you have a tank on the roof, I'm surprised you need a secondary pump. The potential energy from the elevated position should be enough. If it isn't, you might consider raising it a little higher; that might be enough, but an even better step might be to increase the diameter of the pipe leading into the house. Too-narrow pipes are the number one reason for water pressure complaints. If neither raising the tank nor improving the pipe are options, then you'll have to go with the pressure pump, but it seems really costly relative to the first two options.

This. Dunno why you would need a secondary pump; basically you're doubling up on hardware when you prob didnt need to (though telling you that now is great right.... apologies).

Regarding the cisten i'd get some help (and professional advice) and re-dig the whole thing. Literally get rid of the whole thing, dig a new hole, pour new specialist concrete, install filters or whatever you need (not sure whats standard in this kind of setup but you dont want any particles in ur submersible), etc etc. Big job but I reckon it'd be worth it from what you say.

[nietzsche]

Ok, thanks all for your comments..

I bought the pumps today, right now I'm about to take a nap but later I will take some pictures to show you the current set up, the new pumps and later they final set up.

According to the vendor I can just drop the pump with a rope, the pipe attached of course and just fix the pipe to the cement wall of the cistern, but the pump is heavy enough apparently and won't move much when running.

It must be full of sand in the bottom true, I would have to rent a specialized pump to clean the cistern I'm afraid, since I cannot get in. It was up to a level and later another cement & tile floor was installed, and the access was reduced. According to the salesman this submersible pump will never run dry therefore it won't break.

it's a big-ass cistern, and old cement cistern. Actually the reason water pressure is not good here is because it's a rather small place, sometimes there's no water running at all, so a cistern is a must. Some don't have it and complain about some days when they don't have water supply.

Sometimes I wish houses here where like in America, made of wood, so I can break apart whatever I needed, fix stuff and put another sheet of plywood. Actually no, concrete lasts longer and I don't hear what's happening in other parts of the house.

[nietzsche]

In case someone was wondering, I woke up from my nap half an hour ago, but haven't taken the pics.

[nietzsche]

Here are some pics

The centrifugal pump currently installed:



The copper to pvc change I made:



The access to the cistern, the floater system you see is only to stop the city water supply when the cistern is full, like in the tank of your toilet:



The new submersible pump:



The new pressure pump


So first I'm gonna drop a pre-made concrete block to put the pump on it, it's supposedly goes only secured by the rigidity of the pipe, in this case pvc fixed to the cistern wall somehow.

I will have to make holes in the floor but thats rather exciting because 6 months ago I bought a nice bosch rottary hammer and I have only been able to use it once to breakk concrete, it's so easy and so fun!!

I chose pvc because it's easier, I have a starter copper soldering kit but the salesman said pvc is ok.

When installing the pressure pump, after the water tank, I will keep the copper piping tho. That will have to be in a few days, I want to set up the submersible and test it a couple of days before.

[KoolBak]

Interesting stuff! Thanks for taking the time to do that.......the flora and the oxidation reminds me of Hawaii....must be warm / humid in your neck of the woods ;o) Nothing metal over there lasts very long, the salty humid environment is SO hard on everything; agree that PVC is the way to go! Good luck man......

[nietzsche]

Interesting stuff! Thanks for taking the time to do that.......the flora and the oxidation reminds me of Hawaii....must be warm / humid in your neck of the woods ;o) Nothing metal over there lasts very long, the salty humid environment is SO hard on everything; agree that PVC is the way to go! Good luck man......

Yeap, I'm 1 block from the beach. We just had a stationary propane tank replaced after 4 years because there were leaks due to oxidation. This tanks are quite thick.

I just dropped the pump into the cistern, later I'm going to connect the pipes. First a little breakfast and coffee.

[KoolBak]

Any updates?

[nietzsche]

Yeah, there was a contractor finishing a job in another part of the house and since he finished early in the day I asked him if he was free to help me hide the piping inside the floor/walls. He said that he could do it in the afternoon. I was being lazy, I have the tools, maybe not the experience but I could've done it myself.

Well, he showed up after lunch at like 4pm, to tell me that he needed a big ass drill bit and that he was going to get it in that evening and start tomorrow morning (today) and he didn't show up either, maybe he'll show up later? it's a 2 hours job. Anyway, contractors do that here, they will tell you they are free when they have like 3 other jobs waiting and go one day to one and next day to other, but I guess that if he doesn't show up tomorrow I'll do it myself.

I have all the electrical almost finished only to connect it. If I have the time I'm gonna go buy the stuff needed to connect the pressure bust pump later.