Reality Dilemma

[Maugena]

The question is this: Is there a finite origin to matter or is it infinitely, perpetually small? (Is there perpetually a lower level?)
It would make sense both ways.
On one hand, you'd think there needs to be a base for things to actually exist. Perhaps if it is perpetually small, it could be thought of as like a gateway to reality's equilibrium... like a state of duality. I don't know. (Everything and nothing?)
On the other hand, if there was a base level for matter, what would that be and why? Why would it be a specific level of matter?

Just pondering random shit....

[rdsrds2120]

You remind me of a former roommate, Bryan. Maybe reality isn't real at all, and is the biggest misnomer of the times. Either way, it doesn't...matter.

REALITY BENDS AT WILL TO PERCEPTION. NYYUUNGGGUGUGGHHH



-rd

[nietzsche]

The question is this: Is there a finite origin to matter or is it infinitely, perpetually small? (Is there perpetually a lower level?)
It would make sense both ways.
On one hand, you'd think there needs to be a base for things to actually exist. Perhaps if it is perpetually small, it could be thought of as like a gateway to reality's equilibrium... like a state of duality. I don't know. (Everything and nothing?)
On the other hand, if there was a base level for matter, what would that be and why? Why would it be a specific level of matter?

Just pondering random shit....

What makes you think our cognitive abilities are good enough to understand it? Maybe there's this cool channel of sensation where everything is expressed in a clear way, but we don't have access to it.

[BigBallinStalin]

"if there was a base level for matter, what would that be and why?"

What do you mean by "base level of matter"?

From my little understanding of physics and astronomy, it seems that there is matter, and there is energy, and both are interchangeable. So, with that in mind, why would there be some base? Perhaps, at some level, the matter and energy is constantly in flux, or constantly inter-changing... i dunno lol

[Maugena]

The question is this: Is there a finite origin to matter or is it infinitely, perpetually small? (Is there perpetually a lower level?)
It would make sense both ways.
On one hand, you'd think there needs to be a base for things to actually exist. Perhaps if it is perpetually small, it could be thought of as like a gateway to reality's equilibrium... like a state of duality. I don't know. (Everything and nothing?)
On the other hand, if there was a base level for matter, what would that be and why? Why would it be a specific level of matter?

Just pondering random shit....

What makes you think our cognitive abilities are good enough to understand it? Maybe there's this cool channel of sensation where everything is expressed in a clear way, but we don't have access to it.

Yeah, I suppose there could be something like that... We don't know every type of phenomena out there. Nor could we possibly experience it all. We do have a limited capacity of perceptive abilities.

Hmmmmm.

"if there was a base level for matter, what would that be and why?"

What do you mean by "base level of matter"?

From my little understanding of physics and astronomy, it seems that there is matter, and there is energy, and both are interchangeable. So, with that in mind, why would there be some base? Perhaps, at some level, the matter and energy is constantly in flux, or constantly inter-changing... i dunno lol

There always seems to be a lower level beyond that which we know. Take, for instance, the Higgs-boson.
We didn't know about atoms and subatomic particles until somewhat recently. And it goes even lower than just electrons, protons and neutrons. I suppose you would find it logical that there isn't a "base level" of matter, eh? And yes, energy is just another 'form' of matter.

[nietzsche]

OMG did somebody say Higgs boson??

Inb4 PhatScotty "God Particle, who cares?, it's the 27th time."

[Army of GOD]

I feel like we're only at the tip of the possibly (and in my mind, probably) infinite iceburg of particle physics. I think I remember hearing that string theorists think that strings are the "smallest form of matter" (or something like that) but obviously a part of me thinks that even if string theory ends up being well-excepted, it'd be naive to think it's the end-all-be-all.

What sucks ass for us non-scientists is that pretty much everything is incredibly hard to understand. Like, I remember my quantum professor talking about us discovering (or, theorizing, can't remember which) that there are up to 11 or more dimensions. And seriously, just think about it...11 dimensions doesn't even make sense to me. Not to mention thinks like anti-matter, dark matter and energy, wormholes, blackholes, multiverses, etc.

Then again, this is why I'm majoring in physics. Because regardless of how incomprehensible it all is, it's all really awesome.

[nietzsche]

Last time I heard from your teachers you are not majoring in anything.

[Army of GOD]

Last time I heard from your teachers you are not majoring in anything.

They don't understand illegal immigrant language

[Maugena]

I feel like we're only at the tip of the possibly (and in my mind, probably) infinite iceburg of particle physics. I think I remember hearing that string theorists think that strings are the "smallest form of matter" (or something like that) but obviously a part of me thinks that even if string theory ends up being well-excepted, it'd be naive to think it's the end-all-be-all.

Yeah. Agree.

What sucks ass for us non-scientists is that pretty much everything is incredibly hard to understand. Like, I remember my quantum professor talking about us discovering (or, theorizing, can't remember which) that there are up to 11 or more dimensions. And seriously, just think about it...11 dimensions doesn't even make sense to me. Not to mention thinks like anti-matter, dark matter and energy, wormholes, blackholes, multiverses, etc.

I, for one, think that the concept of dimensions is absurd. Sure, you can quantify things in different ways, but that doesn't mean that you get to jump into theoretical nonsense when you try to perpetuate the supposed pattern.
A point is something to relate something else to, it is not a mystical part of a series. A line is merely a connection between two points - allowing for the acquisition of the distance between two points. A '3 dimensional object' is just finding out how much space an object occupies. (The value you get is directly related to the number of dimensions you supposedly have.) 3 dimensions corresponds to cubes because when you take those planes and relate them to an object, you visualize it to have 6 sides. In truth, matter is not bound to this box idea. We can't even really describe what it is, anyway. The point I'm trying to get across probably wasn't well made... I've got the, "I'm tired" excuse again.

Then again, this is why I'm majoring in physics. Because regardless of how incomprehensible it all is, it's all really awesome.

Again, I agree.

Also, on a side note: There's this idea that black holes are singularities, right? I accepted that as truth up until recently. Quite honestly, though, I can't see any reason for that being true. Just because light doesn't escape it doesn't mean that it's infinitely small. It just means that the gravitational pull is fucking ridiculous. It more than likely has a surface. You just can't see it because light can't bounce off of it. When an object becomes more dense on like a planetary/moon type level, the center of the object pulls upon itself and the gravity and density of an object increase exponentially the further in you go. Matter will still push against itself despite any amount of gravity. I forgot where I was going with this one, too. I should go to bed...

G'night, lawl.

[Woodruff]

Also, on a side note: There's this idea that black holes are singularities, right? I accepted that as truth up until recently. Quite honestly, though, I can't see any reason for that being true. Just because light doesn't escape it doesn't mean that it's infinitely small. It just means that the gravitational pull is fucking ridiculous. It more than likely has a surface. You just can't see it because light can't bounce off of it. When an object becomes more dense on like a planetary/moon type level, the center of the object pulls upon itself and the gravity and density of an object increase exponentially the further in you go. Matter will still push against itself despite any amount of gravity.

Actually, you seemed to me to be arguing for exactly why it IS likely to be a singularity (other than the last sentence).

[Maugena]

Also, on a side note: There's this idea that black holes are singularities, right? I accepted that as truth up until recently. Quite honestly, though, I can't see any reason for that being true. Just because light doesn't escape it doesn't mean that it's infinitely small. It just means that the gravitational pull is fucking ridiculous. It more than likely has a surface. You just can't see it because light can't bounce off of it. When an object becomes more dense on like a planetary/moon type level, the center of the object pulls upon itself and the gravity and density of an object increase exponentially the further in you go. Matter will still push against itself despite any amount of gravity.

Actually, you seemed to me to be arguing for exactly why it IS likely to be a singularity (other than the last sentence).

I'd say the singularity bit is like a theorist's 'wet-dream' scenario of the hypothetical. Do you get what I mean by that? I have those moments sometimes, myself. (For instance, the string theory's "walking through walls" tangent.)

A singularity is too specific to be entirely plausible.

[Woodruff]

Also, on a side note: There's this idea that black holes are singularities, right? I accepted that as truth up until recently. Quite honestly, though, I can't see any reason for that being true. Just because light doesn't escape it doesn't mean that it's infinitely small. It just means that the gravitational pull is fucking ridiculous. It more than likely has a surface. You just can't see it because light can't bounce off of it. When an object becomes more dense on like a planetary/moon type level, the center of the object pulls upon itself and the gravity and density of an object increase exponentially the further in you go. Matter will still push against itself despite any amount of gravity.

Actually, you seemed to me to be arguing for exactly why it IS likely to be a singularity (other than the last sentence).

I'd say the singularity bit is like a theorist's 'wet-dream' scenario of the hypothetical. Do you get what I mean by that? I have those moments sometimes, myself. (For instance, the string theory's "walking through walls" tangent.)
A singularity is too specific to be entirely plausible.

Ok, I can agree with that, sure.

[PLAYER57832]

The question is this: Is there a finite origin to matter or is it infinitely, perpetually small? (Is there perpetually a lower level?)
It would make sense both ways.
On one hand, you'd think there needs to be a base for things to actually exist. Perhaps if it is perpetually small, it could be thought of as like a gateway to reality's equilibrium... like a state of duality. I don't know. (Everything and nothing?)
On the other hand, if there was a base level for matter, what would that be and why? Why would it be a specific level of matter?

Just pondering random shit....

Yeah, had this discussion with one of the early quantum physicists a few decades ago. He was dating my roommate at the time and came in one day, very distraught, insisting that "reality does not exist". I looked at him and told him, no, reality is what does exist.. but it may not have the form you percieved before.

Anyway, one answer to your question is that maybe all time is concurrent. I don't really care to delve into that again or more, but there it is.

Suggest you discuss this over brews with a few carefully selected colleagues.

[PLAYER57832]

[
Also, on a side note: There's this idea that black holes are singularities, right? I accepted that as truth up until recently. Quite honestly, though, I can't see any reason for that being true. Just because light doesn't escape it doesn't mean that it's infinitely small. It just means that the gravitational pull is fucking ridiculous. It more than likely has a surface. You just can't see it because light can't bounce off of it. When an object becomes more dense on like a planetary/moon type level, the center of the object pulls upon itself and the gravity and density of an object increase exponentially the further in you go. Matter will still push against itself despite any amount of gravity. I forgot where I was going with this one, too. I should go to bed...

G'night, lawl.

Ironically enough, there was a recent discoverty about this. Let me see if I can find the report.

Here it is:
http://www.npr.org/2012/07/31/157595833 ... -and-burps

Anyway, what caught my ear, and my eye above is that the idea that no light escapes black holes is just wrong. They apparently do have edges where things can escape, and one such event was just recorded.

Not my field, but thought you might find it interesting.. I leave it you all to discuss further.

[Haggis_McMutton]

The question is this: Is there a finite origin to matter or is it infinitely, perpetually small? (Is there perpetually a lower level?)
It would make sense both ways.

Well, you're an optimist. I'd say it wouldn't make sense either way :p

It does seem unlikelier to me that it goes on forever though.
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length

[pmchugh]

Yeah, had this discussion with one of the early quantum physicists a few decades ago. He was dating my roommate at the time and came in one day, very distraught, insisting that "reality does not exist". I looked at him and told him, no, reality is what does exist.. but it may not have the form you percieved before.

[Army of GOD]

Yeah, had this discussion with one of the early quantum physicists a few decades ago. He was dating my roommate at the time and came in one day, very distraught, insisting that "reality does not exist". I looked at him and told him, no, reality is what does exist.. but it may not have the form you percieved before.

Yea, I laughed at that.

PLAYER is CC's resident biologist/physicist/philosopher/etc.

[nietzsche]

Shut up.

Maybe by influencing him she helped shape our current understanding of quantum physics. You never know.