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Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Deficit!

Postby pimpdave on Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:09 pm

The Tea Party is foaming at the mouth with murderous rage today as a new article has been published showing how ceasing to allow the wealthy to bankrupt the nation with their tax avoidance would pay off the deficit in the federal budget. What do you guys think? Why is the Tea Party trying to destroy America?

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/08/27

Add It Up: Taxes Avoided by the Rich Could Pay Off the Deficit
by Paul Buchheit

Conservatives force the deficit issue, ignoring job creation, and insisting that tax increases on the rich wouldn't generate enough revenue to balance the budget. They're way off. But it takes a little arithmetic to put it all together. In the following analysis, data has been taken from a variety of sources, some of which may overlap or slightly disagree, but all of which lead to the conclusion that withheld revenue, not excessive spending, is the problem.

1. Individual and small business tax avoidance costs us $450 billion.

The IRS estimates that 17 percent of taxes owed were not paid, leaving an underpayment of $450 billion. In way of confirmation, an independent review of IRS data reveals that the richest 10 percent of Americans paid less than 19% on $3.8 trillion of income in 2006, nearly $450 billion short of a more legitimate 30% tax rate. It has also been estimated that two-thirds of the annual $1.3 trillion in "tax expenditures" (tax subsidies from special deductions, exemptions, exclusions, credits, capital gains, and loopholes) goes to the top quintile of taxpayers. Based on IRS apportionments, this calculates out to more than $450 billion for the richest 10 percent of Americans.

2. Corporate tax avoidance is between $250 billion and $500 billion.

There are numerous examples of tax avoidance by the big companies, but the most outrageous fact may be that corporations decided to drastically cut their tax rates after the start of the recession. After paying an average of 22.5% from 1987 to 2008, they've paid an annual rate of 10% since. This represents a sudden $250 billion annual loss in taxes. Worse yet, it's a $500 billion shortfall from the 35% statutory corporate tax rate.

3. Tax haven losses range from $337 billion to $500 billion.

The Tax Justice Network estimated in 2011 that $337 billion is lost to the U.S. every year in tax haven abuse. It's probably more. A recent report placed total hidden offshore assets at somewhere between $21 trillion and $32 trillion. Using the lesser $21 trillion figure, and considering that about 40% of the world's Ultra High Net Worth Individuals are Americans, and factoring in an annual 6% stock market gain based on historical records, the tax loss comes to $500 billion.

4. That's enough to pay off a trillion dollar deficit. Reasonable tax changes could pay it off a second time:

(a) A non-regressive payroll tax could produce $150 billion in revenue.

Get ready for some math. The richest 10% made about $3.84 trillion in 2006. A $110,000 salary, which is roughly the cutoff point for payroll tax deductions, is also the approximate minimum income for the richest 10%. A 6.2% tax paid on $1.43 trillion ($110,000 times 13 million payees) is about $90 billion. The lost taxes on the remaining $2.41 trillion come to about $150 billion.

(b) A minimal estate tax brings in another $100 billion.

The 2009 estate tax, designed to impact only the tiny percentage of Americans with multi-million dollar estates that have never been taxed, returns about $100 billion per year.

(c) A financial transaction tax (FTT): up to $500 billion.

The Bank for International Settlements reported in 2008 that annual trading in derivatives had surpassed $1.14 quadrillion (a thousand trillion dollars!). The Chicago Mercantile Exchange handles about 3 billion annual contracts worth well over 1 quadrillion dollars. One-tenth of one percent of a quadrillion dollars could pay off the deficit on its own.

More conservative estimates by the Center for Economic and Policy Research and the Chicago Political Economy Group suggest FTT revenues of a half-trillion dollars annually.

Add it all up, and we've paid off the deficit, almost twice. More importantly, the avoided taxes and a few other sensible taxes could provide sufficient revenue for job stimulus without cutting the hard-earned benefits of middle-class Americans.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:13 pm

The bread that broke the Tea Party's back.jpg
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:39 pm

I don't... I mean... my brain... so many mistakes... lies...

....
....

Hi everyone. This is thegreekdog's doctor. He's had a conniption and won't be posting in this thread.

Seriously though, tax avoidance? If this fucking asshole worked for a real newspaper he should be fired instantly for publishing this fucking bullshit. And you're a fucking jackass pimpdave for posting it. Moron.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Night Strike on Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:43 pm

I just liked this gem of a phrase:
a more legitimate 30% tax rate
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:50 pm

Avoidance though... seriously? Fucking avoidance!

THE GODDAMN TAX LAWS ARE WRITTEN THIS WAY PURPOSEFULLY BY DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS YOU SMALL MINDED HYPOCRITICAL FUCKING MORON!!!

I can't imagine the stupidity with which people view the tax system or the depths one person would go to troll others. This is insanity. Pimpdave should be ashamed of himself for supposedly being a highly educated individual. Might as well post some Glenn Beck bullshit. Jackass.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:00 pm

Tea Party Derangement Syndrome - The REAL TPDS!

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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:04 pm

I'm a little disappointed in myself for even responding to one of dave's constant annoying threads, especially after advising others not to respond in the past. Clearly, this thread annoyed me... not because pimpdave posted it but because this is supposedly an educated individual writing this article.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:08 pm

Shall we report Paul Buchheit to the CC authorities?
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:10 pm

Paul Buchheit wrote:Image
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:17 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Shall we report Paul Buchheit to the CC authorities?


I don't think posting stupidity is against the rules, unfortunately.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:12 pm

I could be wrong here, Because I don't understand it. But around a week ago I had read that there is an estimated $20-30 trillion dollars sits offshore to avoid paying American taxes. It was a Tax Justice Network Report.
I don't understand how it works, and I don't understand why it exists, because I've never been rich. I just don't like to see the people who do it call themselves Patriotic.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Night Strike on Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:16 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:I could be wrong here, Because I don't understand it. But around a week ago I had read that there is an estimated $20-30 trillion dollars sits offshore to avoid paying American taxes. It was a Tax Justice Network Report.
I don't understand how it works, and I don't understand why it exists, because I've never been rich. I just don't like to see the people who do it call themselves Patriotic.


The vast majority of money that is stored overseas is money that was made overseas. If the money is made overseas and is never brought back to the US, then the US government does not have the authority to tax it. It's a perfectly legal option. And since we have some of the highest tax rates in the world, that money is going to stay overseas until the tax code changes. Any money that is made in the US and is then stored in another country is taxable (but any interest gained is not taxable b/c it's not US money).
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:27 pm

NS reminds me. If the owners want to take their profits earned from overseas enterprises and invest it into US domestic projects, they would first have to pay a tax on the money coming into the borders. That kind of tax lowers the perceived profit from domestic endeavors, so on the margin that overseas profit may still overseas. Call it another unintended consequence of the US tax code.

Besides, an influx of US dollars from overseas and into the US domestic economy creates inflationary pressure, so there's that concern as well. These types of trade-offs are never black-and-white.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Night Strike on Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:34 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Besides, an influx of US dollars from overseas and into the US domestic economy creates inflationary pressure, so there's that concern as well. These types of trade-offs are never black-and-white.


I do think this type of inflation is way better than the forced inflation through printing money though.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:42 pm

Night Strike wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Besides, an influx of US dollars from overseas and into the US domestic economy creates inflationary pressure, so there's that concern as well. These types of trade-offs are never black-and-white.


I do think this type of inflation is way better than the forced inflation through printing money though.


Hey, if the Fed wasn't lending credit into existence, then the supply of money would be regulated through fractional reserve banking policies which would have to compete with not only the dollar but also other forms of currency. There would no longer be that federal law which forces people to accept US legal tender.

Given the above option, and the influx of US dollars (and whatever) from overseas investments, I'd go with the latter.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby patches70 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:58 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:I could be wrong here, Because I don't understand it. But around a week ago I had read that there is an estimated $20-30 trillion dollars sits offshore to avoid paying American taxes. It was a Tax Justice Network Report.
I don't understand how it works, and I don't understand why it exists, because I've never been rich. I just don't like to see the people who do it call themselves Patriotic.



$20-$30 trillion eh? Really? Hmmm, checking....checking.....doesn't add up. The M2 money supply, the total amount of assets available to an economy, is at $10 trillion.

$10 trillion, moving around, sitting in savings accounts, money market accounts, checking accounts, virtually every dollar in the world, and yet, the rich are somehow hiding $20-$30 trillion, 2x-3x the total money available. Not just rich people, but everyone in the whole freaking world.

I have to ask for a link to the source of this supposed $20-$30 trillion sitting offshore to avoid taxes. And take note, the "$" means US dollars, unless you are supposing that people should be paying American taxes in Euros? Or the Renmibi? Or some other currency?
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:03 am

Let JB do a quick google search. I'm sure he'll find the evidence next to the box of "nutjobs" who demand compensation for unfair treatment and for freedom from ambiguous and oppressive contracts.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby patches70 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:08 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:NS reminds me. If the owners want to take their profits earned from overseas enterprises and invest it into US domestic projects, they would first have to pay a tax on the money coming into the borders. That kind of tax lowers the perceived profit from domestic endeavors, so on the margin that overseas profit may still overseas. Call it another unintended consequence of the US tax code.

Besides, an influx of US dollars from overseas and into the US domestic economy creates inflationary pressure, so there's that concern as well. These types of trade-offs are never black-and-white.


Every freaking dollar in the world, ever created, ever printed, ever conjured up from thin air, eventually makes it back to the shores of the US in one way or another. Every bond created expires at some point. Every dollar and penny there is eventually makes it back to the Fed. Every dollar created through fractional reserve lending makes it back to a bank/the bank that created it.

Every
single
penny
eventually

Tax code or no tax code. It all ends up back at The Fed one way or another. It must, because that is the source of where every dollar was created and it's the place where every dollar ends up back at.

Juan's claims are Bullshit. There is less than $1 trillion in actual physical currency. The total money supply, excluding only paper and CDs is accounted for in the M2 money supply, a supply of $10 trillion, slightly less actually. There is no way there is $20-$30 trillion being hidden offshore somewhere in an attempt to not pay taxes.
Juan is either mistaken or lying.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:38 am

patches70 wrote:I have to ask for a link to the source of this supposed $20-$30 trillion sitting offshore to avoid taxes. And take note, the "$" means US dollars, unless you are supposing that people should be paying American taxes in Euros? Or the Renmibi? Or some other currency?

I gave you the source when I said that it was a Tax Justice Report. You could have looked it up for yourself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012 ... re-economy
A global super-rich elite has exploited gaps in cross-border tax rules to hide an extraordinary £13 trillion ($21tn) of wealth offshore – as much as the American and Japanese GDPs put together – according to research commissioned by the campaign group Tax Justice Network.

James Henry, former chief economist at consultancy McKinsey and an expert on tax havens, has compiled the most detailed estimates yet of the size of the offshore economy in a new report, The Price of Offshore Revisited, released exclusively to the Observer.

http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_con ... ?idcat=148

http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pd ... 120722.pdf
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:40 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:I could be wrong here, because I don't understand it.


patches70 wrote:Juan is either mistaken or lying.


OH REALLY, YOU THINK?
You're an idiot.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:48 am

How bout we stop dropping bombs, policing the world and we could get the deficit on track. We can have our Bastille day on another century.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby comic boy on Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:57 am

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:I could be wrong here, Because I don't understand it. But around a week ago I had read that there is an estimated $20-30 trillion dollars sits offshore to avoid paying American taxes. It was a Tax Justice Network Report.
I don't understand how it works, and I don't understand why it exists, because I've never been rich. I just don't like to see the people who do it call themselves Patriotic.


The vast majority of money that is stored overseas is money that was made overseas. If the money is made overseas and is never brought back to the US, then the US government does not have the authority to tax it. It's a perfectly legal option. And since we have some of the highest tax rates in the world, that money is going to stay overseas until the tax code changes. Any money that is made in the US and is then stored in another country is taxable (but any interest gained is not taxable b/c it's not US money).


Some of the highest tax rates in the world ?
Would you like to back that up with some stats because it doesn't ring true to me.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby Night Strike on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:02 am

comic boy wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:I could be wrong here, Because I don't understand it. But around a week ago I had read that there is an estimated $20-30 trillion dollars sits offshore to avoid paying American taxes. It was a Tax Justice Network Report.
I don't understand how it works, and I don't understand why it exists, because I've never been rich. I just don't like to see the people who do it call themselves Patriotic.


The vast majority of money that is stored overseas is money that was made overseas. If the money is made overseas and is never brought back to the US, then the US government does not have the authority to tax it. It's a perfectly legal option. And since we have some of the highest tax rates in the world, that money is going to stay overseas until the tax code changes. Any money that is made in the US and is then stored in another country is taxable (but any interest gained is not taxable b/c it's not US money).


Some of the highest tax rates in the world ?
Would you like to back that up with some stats because it doesn't ring true to me.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/us-corporate-tax-rate_n_1392310.html
I think there was a CC thread about it too.
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:58 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
patches70 wrote:I have to ask for a link to the source of this supposed $20-$30 trillion sitting offshore to avoid taxes. And take note, the "$" means US dollars, unless you are supposing that people should be paying American taxes in Euros? Or the Renmibi? Or some other currency?

I gave you the source when I said that it was a Tax Justice Report. You could have looked it up for yourself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012 ... re-economy
A global super-rich elite has exploited gaps in cross-border tax rules to hide an extraordinary £13 trillion ($21tn) of wealth offshore – as much as the American and Japanese GDPs put together – according to research commissioned by the campaign group Tax Justice Network.

James Henry, former chief economist at consultancy McKinsey and an expert on tax havens, has compiled the most detailed estimates yet of the size of the offshore economy in a new report, The Price of Offshore Revisited, released exclusively to the Observer.

http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_con ... ?idcat=148

http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pd ... 120722.pdf


How did he count the money? And over what period of time?
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Re: Tea Party Enraged! Taxes Avoided By Rich Could Pay Defic

Postby comic boy on Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:02 am

Night Strike wrote:
comic boy wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:I could be wrong here, Because I don't understand it. But around a week ago I had read that there is an estimated $20-30 trillion dollars sits offshore to avoid paying American taxes. It was a Tax Justice Network Report.
I don't understand how it works, and I don't understand why it exists, because I've never been rich. I just don't like to see the people who do it call themselves Patriotic.


The vast majority of money that is stored overseas is money that was made overseas. If the money is made overseas and is never brought back to the US, then the US government does not have the authority to tax it. It's a perfectly legal option. And since we have some of the highest tax rates in the world, that money is going to stay overseas until the tax code changes. Any money that is made in the US and is then stored in another country is taxable (but any interest gained is not taxable b/c it's not US money).


Some of the highest tax rates in the world ?
Would you like to back that up with some stats because it doesn't ring true to me.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/us-corporate-tax-rate_n_1392310.html
I think there was a CC thread about it too.


My bad , I thought we were talking about individual rather than corporate avoidance , the former can most definitely not be excused on the grounds of excessively high tax rates.
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