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Should Schools Have an Armed Professional on Campus?

 
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:06 pm

I'm 100% in favour of this.
theoretical gun that is locked up and supervised at all times.

However..

You don't seem familiar with the high work load of most teachers. I don't think adding even just secured fire arm access training is completely fair.

I believe if done, it would need to be voluntary by only teachers interested in it. Very few would want to participate, possibly as low as 1 in thousands.

It may be a deterrent. It more likely might result in more stories like your picture. Even one more seems worth it to me but it's kind of idealistic in many ways.
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Re:

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:20 pm

2dimes wrote:I'm 100% in favour of this.
theoretical gun that is locked up and supervised at all times.

However..

You don't seem familiar with the high work load of most teachers. I don't think adding even just secured fire arm access training is completely fair.

I believe if done, it would need to be voluntary by only teachers interested in it. Very few would want to participate, possibly as low as 1 in thousands.

It may be a deterrent. It more likely might result in more stories like your picture. Even one more seems worth it to me but it's kind of idealistic in many ways.


I'm familiar with the high work load. I still think protecting children's comes first. I am still willing to bet that there are plenty of teachers who have already had the training (only 1 or 2 is needed, not every single teacher in the school) and even if they have not already had the training, I'm willing to bet further that many teachers interested in taking on this responsibility will take the cost and time of training upon themselves. There are plenty of teachers who care enough to do this. Maybe it can even be the principle.

Of course, 100% voluntary. I would just be guessing, but I'm pretty sure 1 in 1000 is far too low. Keep in mind, 99.9% of the teachers will never have to actually access the gun. (There are about 150,000 schools in the USA)
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:33 pm

Education is run by people that are generally against spankings.

Personally I like your idea now that it has been expanded.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:33 pm

I have nothing against the idea of responsible people with training being armed to protect schools, but isn't this conversation working out solutions for a problem that's already happened (teachers won't start shooting until people have already been shot at), rather than trying to stop the problem happening in the first place?

It's like saying that you'll put parachutes in every plane in case of engine failure and then saying "but don't worry about engine maintenance because everyone has a parachute in case the engines fail anyway"
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:41 pm

crispybits wrote:I have nothing against the idea of responsible people with training being armed to protect schools, but isn't this conversation working out solutions for a problem that's already happened (teachers won't start shooting until people have already been shot at), rather than trying to stop the problem happening in the first place?


Maybe.

Can we compare it to fire extinguishers. They don't prevent a fire but they help control it. I would like to see other things done to prevent shooting as well as the secure defensive fire arm.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:52 pm

crispybits wrote:I have nothing against the idea of responsible people with training being armed to protect schools, but isn't this conversation working out solutions for a problem that's already happened (teachers won't start shooting until people have already been shot at), rather than trying to stop the problem happening in the first place?


Crispy, I don't know where you keep coming from on this. Because it seems like you are saying "well, the mass murderer has already started shooting, so we shouldn't do anything to try to stop him"

I still honestly believe, that if people knew the schools were protected by an armed professional, they would think twice before bringing a gun into a school with murderous intentions. I don't believe for one second that a mass murderers knowledge that the school is a gun free zone does not figure into their motive and planning

It's about as simple as low hanging fruit. If you are hungry, and you want something to eat, and there is a fruit tree with one fruit on a branch 5 feet off the ground, and one fruit is 8 feet off the ground, almost every single time the lower fruit is going to be the one that is picked.

Repealing schools as gun free zones will mean schools are no longer that low hanging fruit/defenseless target/baby with candy
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:20 pm

I said nothing like that - I actually said I have nothing against responsible and trained adults having access to a firearm if there is a danger of someone coming in and shooting the place up.

I just marvel that the conversation is about how to stop a gunman who is already rampaging through a school and has already fired shots, instead of working out how to stop there being gunmen who will rampage through schools in the first place.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:23 pm

Phatscotty is trying to treat the symptoms of the problem presumably under the assumption that we can never solve the underlying problem, whereas crispybits believes we should attempt to solve the underlying problem. Can we not do both?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:25 pm

Exactly my point.

I have nothing against treating the symptoms, arm people in a responsible and safe way as a means of protection if you're set on having a society where everyone has easy access to guns (even those who shouldn't by law), but you have to look at the root problem too.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:27 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Phatscotty is trying to treat the symptoms of the problem presumably under the assumption that we can never solve the underlying problem, whereas crispybits believes we should attempt to solve the underlying problem. Can we not do both?


Interesting point. I am just of the more general belief that murder will always be part of humanity.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:28 pm

Does making schools ā€œgun-free zonesā€ really protect children, or make them easy targets?

The recent mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., has left many wondering how best to keep children safe from mad gunmen who ignore the ā€œgun-free zoneā€ laws ā€“ and indeed any gun-control laws ā€“ to open fire on our nationā€™s most innocent.

According to news reports of the Connecticut massacre, Adam Lanza, 20, shot his mother Nancy dead at their family home, then drove to the school, where he gunned down six more adults and 20 children, before killing himself.

But what if one of the teachers had a gun, too? Could Lanza have been stopped and many of the childrenā€™s lives saved?

The question isnā€™t new. Back in 1999, the year of the Columbine school shooting, an organization called Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership interviewed Dr. David Th. Schiller, a leading gun-rights advocate in Europe on how to combat the school shootings that even then were deemed ā€œquite commonā€ on U.S. soil.

Schiller cited the example of Israel in the 1970s, which had suffered a string of horrific attacks on schoolchildren by Palestinian terrorists.

ā€œAfter this a controversial debate erupted in Israel in regards to guns, self-defense, etc.,ā€ Schiller said. ā€œWe heard, of course, the same dumb arguments by some good people you always hear on these occasions, like, ā€˜We do not live in the Wild West here!ā€™ or, ā€œGuns donā€™t solve problems!ā€ or similar silly things.ā€

But then, Schiller explained, Israel dumped its strict gun laws dating back to British rule over the area and opened the doors for concealed carry permits.

ā€œTeachers and kindergarten nurses now started to carry guns, schools were protected by parents (and often grandpas) guarding them in voluntary shifts. No school group went on a hike or trip without armed guards,ā€ Schiller explained. ā€œWhen the message got around to the PLO groups and a couple infiltration attempts failed, the attacks against schools ceased. Too much of a risk here: Terrorists and other evildoers donā€™t like risks.

ā€œThe only thing we can do is protect possible victims,ā€ Schiller concluded. ā€œAnd laws written in some books will not achieve that. Never have, never will.ā€

In the U.S., the question of teachers with guns has been debated since Columbine ā€“ if not before ā€“ and has come up again following the tragedy at Sandy Hook.

According to the Associated Press, Oregon State Rep. Dennis Richardson contends the Connecticut massacre is another ā€œheartbreaking failureā€ of school personnel to ensure protection and evidence that teachers should be allowed to carry guns in the classroom.

Richardson wrote in an email to three southern Oregon school superintendents that gun bans on school property must be overturned.

ā€œIf I had been a teacher or the principal at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, and if the school district did not preclude me from having access to a firearm, either by concealed carry or locked in my desk, most of the murdered children would still be alive, and the gunman would still be dead, and not by suicide,ā€ he wrote.

Richardson added, ā€œWe need to ensure that our children are safe, and we canā€™t do that by disarming those who are on the scene.ā€

In Medford, Ore., where the school district faced a lawsuit over barring a high school teacher from bringing her gun to school in 2009, Police Chief Tim George argued Richardson is misguided.

ā€œTeachers donā€™t go into teaching to be police officers, they want to teach kids,ā€ George said. ā€œIn crisis situations there are a lot of very complex things happening all at once, and you have to constantly train for deadly force incidents.ā€

Medfordā€™s schools Superintendant Phil Long agreed, saying he believes itā€™s best if teachers focus on getting children to safety if a shooting happens.

ā€œI know (Richardson) is well-intentioned when he says this,ā€ Long said. ā€œBut we canā€™t jump to conclusions immediately after a tragedy like this occurs.ā€

Already armed

In 2008, the tiny school district in Harrold, Texas, made national news when it approved a policy change permitting employees to carry concealed firearms to deter and protect against school shootings.

In order for teachers and staff to carry a pistol, the Associated Press reported at the time, they must have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun; must be authorized to carry by the district; must receive training in crisis management and hostile situations and have to use ammunition that is designed to minimize the risk of ricochet in school halls.

Superintendent David Thweatt argued there was just too little protection for the children, when his schools lie more than 20 minutes from the nearest sheriffā€™s office.

ā€œWhen the federal government started making schools gun-free zones, thatā€™s when all of these shootings started,ā€ Thweatt told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. ā€œWhy would you put it out there that a group of people canā€™t defend themselves? Thatā€™s like saying ā€˜sic ā€˜emā€™ to a dog.ā€

Texas law typically outlaws firearms on school campuses, ā€œunless pursuant to the written regulations or written authorization of the institution.ā€

Four years later, following the Connecticut shooting, the Star-Telegraph revisited Thweatt and the Harrold school districtā€™s ā€œguardian plan.ā€

Thweatt said there has not been an incident on his campus since implementing the policy and he doesnā€™t expect one.

ā€œIs that 100 percent? No,ā€ Thweatt told the newspaper. ā€œNothing is 100 percent. But what we do know is that weā€™ve done all we can to protect our children.ā€

Thweatt explained his district has also installed special locks and cameras, but that isnā€™t enough. He doesnā€™t want a plan where you ā€œlock yourself in your closet and hope that an intruder wonā€™t hurt you. So what we came up with was a policy that would protect.ā€

He also said his heart was heavy after learning of the shooting in Connecticut: ā€œItā€™s just tearing me up. ā€¦ I have children of my own. I canā€™t stand to think of my little guys just getting slaughtered like that. My heart just bleeds for these people.ā€

Other efforts to arm teachers

Lawmakers in a number of states in recent years have made arguments similar to Thweattā€™s, attempting to clear the way for trained teachers or officials to protect schools with firearms.

The aforementioned Oregon, after a school shooting in 1998 ā€“ when student Kip Kinkel killed his parents at home, then drove to Thurston High School in Springfield and opened fire in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25 others ā€“ has drafted a number of bills to permit concealed carry in schools. The bills, however, have failed to pass.

After a string of school shootings in Wisconsin, Colorado and Pennsylvania in the span of only a few weeks in 2006, Wisconsin State Rep. Frank Lasee pushed for legislation that would allow teachers, principals, administrators and other school personnel to carry concealed weapons.

ā€œTo make our schools safe for our students to learn, all options should be on the table,ā€ Lasee told the AP. ā€œIsrael [has] well-trained teachers carrying weapons and keeping their children safe from harm. It can work in Wisconsin.ā€

The director of school safety for Milwaukee Public Schools, Pete Pochowski, opposed Laseeā€™s proposal at the time.

ā€œStatistically, the safest place for a child to be is in school,ā€ Pochowski said. ā€œWe have problems in our schools, but not to the point where we need to arm our teachers and principals.ā€

Children in Israel are far more vulnerable to daily violence than students in America, he said.

Just last year, Nebraska State Sen. Mark Christensen introduced a bill to allow teachers, administrators and school security guards to carry concealed guns.

Christensen told the Lincoln Journal Star he introduced his bill in response to a 2011 shooting at Millard South High School, where 17-year-old student Robert Butler Jr. shot Assistant Principal Vicki Kaspar and then shot Principal Curtis Case after Kaspar had suspended Butler from the school earlier that morning. Kaspar died of her injury, while Curtis recovered.

ā€œDo we want a situation where somebody can just walk in and start shooting teachers and all kinds of kids?ā€ Christensen asked at the time.

His measure, had it been on the books, might have allowed someone to stop Butler, he argued.

ā€œWe might have been better off,ā€ Christensen said. ā€œTo me, itā€™s much better to be able to deal with the situation quickly. We can stop additional lives from being taken.ā€

Three months after Christensen proposed the legislation, it was tabled indefinitely.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/what-if-1-of ... jzmiIQY.99
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:29 pm

By the way PS, statistically at some point a teacher is going to be one of these "going postal" people that with no real warning signs loses their fruit loops and goes on a rampage. There is no reason to think that they are immune from mental illnesses. So what happens when the gun stored to keep a school safe ends up being the one that kills the kids?

(troll post? slightly, maybe, but I don't see why it's not a valid criticism of the "arm the teachers" policy)
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:30 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Phatscotty is trying to treat the symptoms of the problem presumably under the assumption that we can never solve the underlying problem, whereas crispybits believes we should attempt to solve the underlying problem. Can we not do both?


Interesting point. I am just of the more general belief that murder will always be part of humanity.

Something about "give a dog a bad name" pops into my head right now.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:41 pm

crispybits wrote:By the way PS, statistically at some point a teacher is going to be one of these "going postal" people that with no real warning signs loses their fruit loops and goes on a rampage. There is no reason to think that they are immune from mental illnesses. So what happens when the gun stored to keep a school safe ends up being the one that kills the kids?

(troll post? slightly, maybe, but I don't see why it's not a valid criticism of the "arm the teachers" policy)


Actually, if you read that article I just posted, there are already school in America where the teachers do have guns in their desks.

But to your point, anyone can go postal at any time. That's what this is all about. You are letting fear get to you, and the only thing rampant is your speculation and made up statistics.

Teachers are not immune from mental illness, but neither are police officers or soldiers....

And seriously, if we cannot trust our teachers to protect our children, then we have ZERO reason to trust them to educate our children
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:47 pm

I don't want to turn our country into Israel. Constant violence is something that Israeli children face all of the time. We could ensure protection for our children, but at what cost? We would be raising them in the belief that the only way to stay safe is to own a gun, which ensures that people will always need guns for protection. I think it sends the message that we live in a violent country where people are always out to get each other, when really it's a tiny few that are capable of committing such crimes. We do not want to live in a country of fear. The threats may be real, but they are not so common as to justify the creation of an unending cycle of fear.
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:52 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Phatscotty is trying to treat the symptoms of the problem presumably under the assumption that we can never solve the underlying problem, whereas crispybits believes we should attempt to solve the underlying problem. Can we not do both?

I don't think we can solve the underlying problems either. I think we need to continue to try still. It would be great to be proven wrong.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:52 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:I don't want to turn our country into Israel. Constant violence is something that Israeli children face all of the time. We could ensure protection for our children, but at what cost? We would be raising them in the belief that the only way to stay safe is to own a gun, which ensures that people will always need guns for protection. I think it sends the message that we live in a violent country where people are always out to get each other, when really it's a tiny few that are capable of committing such crimes. We do not want to live in a country of fear. The threats may be real, but they are not so common as to justify the creation of an unending cycle of fear.


We aren't turning our country into anything, we are trying to deal with the most tragic situations of our time.

There is nothing wrong with teaching children to understand that guns are for protection and self defense, and not for murder or crime, and that is actually a good lesson to teach. And Cost? There is no cost. If there is a cost, it costs the same as our children learning to call the police (because they have guns) when they are in danger, to stay safe.

I think you guys are stretching wayyyyy too far to justify your positions.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Lootifer on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:56 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I think you guys are stretching wayyyyy too far to justify your positions.

Ironic comment of the day.

Oh and to be clear, I share Crispys pov; who gives a crap about gun laws; fix your culture america.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:01 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I think you guys are stretching wayyyyy too far to justify your positions.

Ironic comment of the day.

Oh and to be clear, I share Crispys pov; who gives a crap about gun laws; fix your culture america.


You should have heard all the completely irrational fears expressed based solely on emotion!

And don't exclude me from the culture bit, I agree with that pov too. I have been pounding on it over my entire existence here
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:04 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I think you guys are stretching wayyyyy too far to justify your positions.

Ironic comment of the day.

Oh and to be clear, I share Crispys pov; who gives a crap about gun laws; fix your culture america.


You should have heard all the completely irrational fears expressed based solely on emotion!

And don't exclude me from the culture bit, I agree with that pov too. I have been pounding on it over my entire existence here


Gotta side with PS on this one. He really does hammer on the culture bit. He just wants to lead us to a slightly different culture than the one we espouse.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:20 pm

Fewer guns = fewer gun-related crimes

FACT
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:27 pm

greenoaks wrote:Fewer guns = fewer gun-related crimes

FACT


Ok, greenoaks solved the case, everyone. Guess we can all go home now.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:31 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:Fewer guns = fewer gun-related crimes

FACT


Ok, greenoaks solved the case, everyone. Guess we can all go home now.

the problem is stupid americans wanting to invade other countries because they may have wmd's while their own citizens own weapons of mass destruction


and use them to kill innocent children.



they want to disarm the rest of the world but refuse to disarm the biggest threat to their children - themselves
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:57 pm

greenoaks wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:Fewer guns = fewer gun-related crimes

FACT


Ok, greenoaks solved the case, everyone. Guess we can all go home now.

the problem is stupid americans wanting to invade other countries because they may have wmd's while their own citizens own weapons of mass destruction


and use them to kill innocent children.

they want to disarm the rest of the world but refuse to disarm the biggest threat to their children - themselves


Sorry for Mets. You had victory in his mind, but then you kept talking...

Your fact is not a fact tho
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:12 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:Fewer guns = fewer gun-related crimes

FACT


Ok, greenoaks solved the case, everyone. Guess we can all go home now.

the problem is stupid americans wanting to invade other countries because they may have wmd's while their own citizens own weapons of mass destruction


and use them to kill innocent children.

they want to disarm the rest of the world but refuse to disarm the biggest threat to their children - themselves


Sorry for Mets. You had victory in his mind, but then you kept talking...

Your fact is not a fact tho


The Harvard Injury Control Research Centre assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found there's substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you're looking at different countries or different states.
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