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kentington wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure.
Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay.
Night Strike wrote:Why does the government get to dictate what people should be paid? Are people too stupid to find jobs that pay them what they want them to paid?
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
tzor wrote:kentington wrote:Funkyterrance wrote:He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure.
Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay.
Let's, for a moment, assume kentington's argument because I think there is a fundamental flaw in it. Assume a minimum wage job. Assume person works at minimum wage job. Logic demands (yes there are exceptions but unless you have a problem in life, the more you do a thing the better you get at it) that the person will get better at it. He will soon either out perform in that job or he will acquire the skills to be able to train others to do the job. In short the person will acquire the necessary assets that will demand a higher wage.
Ignoring the minimum wage, that is the cycle of corporate life. No one retires at the entry level job they started out with. Wage is proportional to experience and effectiveness.
Ironically, those areas where you may be doing the same thing at the point of retirement tend to be union jobs with big wage increases. The janitor who works in the New York City School System is making a lot of money compared to a lot of people who are just starting work.
Therefore the minimum wage is effectively the minimum experience level.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
PLAYER57832 wrote:Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.
Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.
And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.
Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.
And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
Night Strike wrote:
Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.
PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.
And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.Night Strike wrote:
Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.
No, in most cases, young people, trainees can be paid less. Even professional in-home care workers don't have to be paid minimum wage.
Further more. the reason folks like you can trot out the idea that only a few people get minimum wage is because anyone making even a penny more is technically no longer making minimum wage. The number of people making under $8 or $9 an hour is close to a fourth of the population... and a LARGE percentage of them are women, not teenage kids.
Nobunaga wrote:... Where's my violin?
PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.
Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.
Why not? If the minimum wage is designed to get hard working people more money, why isn't it raised to a much higher number? I thought there were no consequences to raising the minimum wage other than the evil rich bosses won't be able to be paid as much, so why are we stopping at some randomly low number? Why don't we pick an arbitrary higher number?
stahrgazer wrote:Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.
Why not? If the minimum wage is designed to get hard working people more money, why isn't it raised to a much higher number? I thought there were no consequences to raising the minimum wage other than the evil rich bosses won't be able to be paid as much, so why are we stopping at some randomly low number? Why don't we pick an arbitrary higher number?
Actually, a higher number would be more helpful to those who are "barely above minimum" now.
What happens when minimum wage rises is that the cost of everyday items such as a loaf of bread also rises, while the salaries of those who just broke past the "minimum" bubble does NOT typically rise by a commensurate amount... so a new worker will now be paid as much as a worker who's been there a few years and the worker who's been employed at his place of work for a few years who finally thought he saw some relief, is now going to have to re-budget to buy food for the table, gas for the car, and will not be able to buy the extras he thought he'd be able to buy once he finally broke thru the OLD minimum wage bubble. The bubble just rose back up to snatch him back into barely-above-poverty once more.
But if the minimum wage were to rise sufficiently high, the there-for-a-few-years worker would likely ALSO get a raise (or maybe get a raise and no new hires.)
I've supported alot of Obama's ideas, but I don't support this one.
PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.
And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
Symmetry wrote:Hilarious- what skills do you think they're picking up? Why do you think only young people are in these positions?
AndyDufresne wrote:Back in the 1950's where that meme was generated I think.
tzor wrote:Symmetry wrote:Hilarious- what skills do you think they're picking up? Why do you think only young people are in these positions?
They pick up lots of skills; skills that you and I might take for granted. Of course the older you are the more likely you might have picked up those skills. There might be exceptions, I suppose.
Yes, had the US income distribution and US standards of decency remained exactly what it was in 1968, the minimum wage would now be $21.16 per hour.
Juan_Bottom wrote:
Historically speaking, the minimum wage was much higher than it is now, during a period of growth. Just using an inflation adjustment shows that the minimum wage should be at least $10.55 now. Americans, you're not saving any money by allowing corporations to pay people minimum wage. Those minimum wage earners have to make up the loss by being supported by taxpayers through the dole, or through loans. So if private industries can't 'make enough profits' while paying people a living wage, then the government should socialize those private industries.
http://inequality.org/minimum-wage/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_ine ... ted_StatesYes, had the US income distribution and US standards of decency remained exactly what it was in 1968, the minimum wage would now be $21.16 per hour.
Setting an ultimate bottom doesn't as you and Nightstrike wish to imply destroy a valid free market.BigBallinStalin wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.
And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
On the contrary, the $20/hour example stresses the implications of pricing the supply of a good (labor) beyond its market clearing price. When price floor is imposed by the government within a relatively free market, then at least be aware of the poor outcomes (e.g. decreased quality, higher prices in other areas, etc.).
BigBallinStalin wrote: The point is that paying someone more than their labor is worth is stupid (e.g. $100 per hour to shovel dirt---one exception would be a disaster zone where there's high demand for labor, and/or supply of labor is very low). But most people don't get that. They don't understand what marginal labor product is. They don't understand that for every hour of labor, a certain amount of revenue is generated. Paying someone (marginal cost) more than the revenue they generate is stupid.
BigBallinStalin wrote: Hopefully, something nags on people's minds when they think, "Gee, what if I paid everyone a minimum of $100 per hour." Other times, it resorts to emotional knee-jerking and petty insults---which is easier than addressing the problems of one's deeply held emotions.
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