He's called a "traitor"

[rishaed]

he is a f-en dirt bag,i guess you think its ok to put our men on the battle field in more arm,well maybe ur a dirt bag to,i guess you can go join him

How are they in more harm?

really you had to go there,wow..really,wtf...lets just tell the whole world what we are doing,you all can move to canada then

What they were doing was infringing blatantly disregarding the rights of every American citizen. But don't listen to me, because you probably haven't listened/read the rest of this thread either. I personally want to know when my rights are being violated by a government organization.

well if you were talking about shit to blow something up or say certian words,or plans on killing the president,then you deserve to be tap with out warning,,with out the nsa we are less safer,so just get over it

\
But here you have it. It was a blanket Wiretap of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. IF the police bust into your home without a warrant and find a room from floor to ceiling with Cocaine in it, they cannot charge you for Possession for that Cocaine. (I guarantee you that they will still confiscate it though). And certainly my opinion of you has dropped quite a bit from your last posts.....
For the Fourth Amendment you MUST have reasonable Suspicion of someone before Searching (Wiretaps fall into this category) or Seizure. What the NSA did is (of course there is more illegal reasonings but lets keep it simple), "Hey, lets wiretap everyone we can think of and maybe we will find someone!"
"Great Idea lets do it!"
"But what about the 4th Amendment?"
"We'll never get caught so its okay!"

[Phatscotty]

I like what you said Rishaed, but there's another thing I remembered and have been trying to tie in for a while and here it is. Remember how right after they passed the patriot act, they started using the "anti-terrorist" methods on drug dealers and drug users, as well as environmental groups who were trying to take action....

I think now they might be able to charge them with the cocaine possession, and rapidly produce a "secret court" warrant.

[patches70]

well if you were talking about shit to blow something up or say certian words,or plans on killing the president,then you deserve to be tap with out warning,,with out the nsa we are less safer,so just get over it

Hahaha, can you see the dissonance reduction in your view?

And if you are a law abiding person, you deserve to have your entire life secretly watched, recorded and stored for any use anyone who may be in power in the future may use that information?

Not too many people are saints. I'm sure there are things pretty much every one of us does that even though it may not be illegal, it's certainly something you'd never tell your mother about.

If you really want to be safe, simply have yourself tossed in a secure location, preferably with armed guards around at all times. A camera on you every hour of every day, watched by handlers. If you wanted to do something, you need only ask for permission. Though anything that you might want to do, or go that has any risk at all, permission would have to be denied. But you'll be safe, to lead a long, boring life.

I'd like to think that as our rights are steadily being stripped away in the name of security, you having to work more and paying more taxes to fund wars in the name of "national interest" or any other abuse that can be heaped upon you and the rest of your countrymen; that you may begin to feel an unpleasant feeling. Anxiety, frustration, guilty and/or even anger. Fear not, that's cognitive dissonance as you reach that point where you can no longer keep reducing the importance of your own personal liberty to the whims of the ever changing state of what's right and wrong by our political masters.
You will one day reach the point where you can no longer attain consonance as your own beliefs, ideas and values are constantly being changed by others in the name of "for your own good".
Well, hopefully you'll reach that point. That'll just mean you have finally stopped separating yourself from reality. And the World will turn for you when that day comes. It will be disconcerting, but you'll be better for it in the long run, though by then it just might be too late to make things right.

And you will find yourself in a new reality. As a serf. I wonder, will you even question how it came to be? Or will you keep up with ever more dissonance reduction?

I wonder if ants in an ant farm ever wonder how they got there? Or if a cow ever tries to puzzle out why she's in that narrow lane, other cows in front of her, more cows behind her and there isn't even enough space for her to turn her head to one side or the other. Then the smell of blood hits her, does she wonder what is coming?

Meh, probably not, but humans are not cows or ants, though in the end that's what we could well resemble if we aren't careful.

[karel]

bla,bla,bla......keep rambling on

[patches70]

bla,bla,bla......keep rambling on

Hahaha! You could be a case study in cognitive dissonance. Outstanding!

[BigBallinStalin]

Karel is the kind of citizen you don't want in your democracy.

It's not that he supports the NSA ops because there are some arguments which can mustered in their defense, but with karel he brings up nothing. So what does he blindly lean upon to support his firmly held beliefs?

It looks like the furor, the rage of Nationalists who love their country--no matter what.

Who else loved his country with such passion and blind prejudice and rage? Hitler did. Hitler loved Germany.

[Phatscotty]

I don't think Karel has delved too deeply into the issue and just made a brash knee-jerk post. I can forgive for losing temper on me, but all I really asked is how it puts our troops in harms way as you said. It should be a simple discussion and there really is no need to carpet bomb like that.

Yes, I actually do need to hear how it puts the troops in harms way, because although I might be able to understand how that is possible, I do not as of this moment see how it does that.

[ooge]

You know me change topic. you see how much information we are aware of only because of whistle blowers. Drone stikes,NSA. I know there is more.

[Woodruff]

he is a f-en dirt bag,i guess you think its ok to put our men on the battle field in more arm,well maybe ur a dirt bag to,i guess you can go join him

How are they in more harm?

really you had to go there,wow..really,wtf...lets just tell the whole world what we are doing,you all can move to canada then

Since our government's activities tend to send our soldiers MORE into harms way than less, I would suggest to you that highlighting our government's activities might actually result in our soldiers being LESS in harms way. Sort of shining a light into the darker areas and showing what is really there.

and your point is?

My point is in contrast to your statement that Snowden is putting our men and women on the battlefield into more harm. I take it you now agree with me?

[Woodruff]

he is a f-en dirt bag,i guess you think its ok to put our men on the battle field in more arm,well maybe ur a dirt bag to,i guess you can go join him

How are they in more harm?

really you had to go there,wow..really,wtf...lets just tell the whole world what we are doing,you all can move to canada then

What they were doing was infringing blatantly disregarding the rights of every American citizen. But don't listen to me, because you probably haven't listened/read the rest of this thread either. I personally want to know when my rights are being violated by a government organization.

well if you were talking about shit to blow something up or say certian words,or plans on killing the president,then you deserve to be tap with out warning,,with out the nsa we are less safer,so just get over it

So you're proud of how well they stopped the Boston Bomber, then?

It's like I've said before...it's not about doing wrong. Some things are just private. When you go to take a shit, you're not doing anything wrong. But you should rightly expect privacy in doing it.

[Haggis_McMutton]

well if you were talking about shit to blow something up or say certian words,or plans on killing the president,then you deserve to be tap with out warning,,with out the nsa we are less safer,so just get over it

Do you think the purpose of government is to make us as safe as possible?

[Woodruff]

The word "traitor" has been thrown around a lot in recent days. But who is really the traitor here? Who was it who promised a generation "hope" and "change," only to betray those promises with dismal misery and stagnation? Who took an oath to defend the US Constitution, only to feed the invisible beast of secret law devouring it alive from the inside out?

"A matter of internal security: the age-old cry of the oppressor." Captain Jean-Luc Picard

[Phatscotty]

27 Edward Snowden Quotes About U.S. Government Spying That Should Send A Chill Up Your Spine

Would you be willing to give up what Edward Snowden has given up? He has given up his high paying job, his home, his girlfriend, his family, his future and his freedom just to expose the monolithic spy machinery that the U.S. government has been secretly building to the world. He says that he does not want to live in a world where there isn’t any privacy. He says that he does not want to live in a world where everything that he says and does is recorded.

Thanks to Snowden, we now know that the U.S. government has been spying on us to a degree that most people would have never even dared to imagine. Up until now, the general public has known very little about the U.S. government spy grid that knows almost everything about us. But making this information public is going to cost Edward Snowden everything.

Edward SnowdenEssentially, his previous life is now totally over. And if the U.S. government gets their hands on him, he will be very fortunate if he only has to spend the next several decades rotting in some horrible prison somewhere. There is a reason why government whistleblowers are so rare. And most Americans are so apathetic that they wouldn’t even give up watching their favorite television show for a single evening to do something good for society. Most Americans never even try to make a difference because they do not believe that it will benefit them personally. Meanwhile, our society continues to fall apart all around us. Hopefully the great sacrifice that Edward Snowden has made will not be in vain. Hopefully people will carefully consider what he has tried to share with the world. The following are 27 quotes from Edward Snowden about U.S. government spying that should send a chill up your spine…

#1 “The majority of people in developed countries spend at least some time interacting with the Internet, and Governments are abusing that necessity in secret to extend their powers beyond what is necessary and appropriate.”

#2 “…I believe that at this point in history, the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life comes from the reasonable fear of omniscient State powers kept in check by nothing more than policy documents.”

#3 “The government has granted itself power it is not entitled to. There is no public oversight. The result is people like myself have the latitude to go further than they are allowed to.”

#4 “…I can’t in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they’re secretly building.”

#5 “The NSA has built an infrastructure that allows it to intercept almost everything.”

#6 “With this capability, the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested without targeting. If I wanted to see your e-mails or your wife’s phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your e-mails, passwords, phone records, credit cards.”

#7 “Any analyst at any time can target anyone. Any selector, anywhere… I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge, to even the President…”

#8 “To do that, the NSA specifically targets the communications of everyone. It ingests them by default. It collects them in its system and it filters them and it analyzes them and it measures them and it stores them for periods of time simply because that’s the easiest, most efficient and most valuable way to achieve these ends. So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a foreign government, or someone that they suspect of terrorism, they are collecting YOUR communications to do so.”

#9 “I believe that when [senator Ron] Wyden and [senator Mark] Udall asked about the scale of this, they [the NSA] said it did not have the tools to provide an answer. We do have the tools and I have maps showing where people have been scrutinized most. We collect more digital communications from America than we do from the Russians.”

#10 “…they are intent on making every conversation and every form of behavior in the world known to them.”

#11 “Even if you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re being watched and recorded. …it’s getting to the point where you don’t have to have done anything wrong, you simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, and then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you’ve ever made, every friend you’ve ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life.”

#12 “Allowing the U.S. government to intimidate its people with threats of retaliation for revealing wrongdoing is contrary to the public interest.”

#13 “Everyone everywhere now understands how bad things have gotten — and they’re talking about it. They have the power to decide for themselves whether they are willing to sacrifice their privacy to the surveillance state.”

#14 “I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under.”

#15 “I don’t want to live in a world where there’s no privacy, and therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity.”

#16 “I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong.”

#17 “I had been looking for leaders, but I realized that leadership is about being the first to act.”

#18 “There are more important things than money. If I were motivated by money, I could have sold these documents to any number of countries and gotten very rich.”

#19 “The great fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. [People] won’t be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things… And in the months ahead, the years ahead, it’s only going to get worse. [The NSA will] say that… because of the crisis, the dangers that we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny.”

#20 “I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant.”

#21 “You can’t come up against the world’s most powerful intelligence agencies and not accept the risk.”

#22 “I know the media likes to personalize political debates, and I know the government will demonize me.”

#23 “We have got a CIA station just up the road – the consulate here in Hong Kong – and I am sure they are going to be busy for the next week. And that is a concern I will live with for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be.”

#24 “I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions, and that the return of this information to the public marks my end.”

#25 “There’s no saving me.”

#26 “The only thing I fear is the harmful effects on my family, who I won’t be able to help any more. That’s what keeps me up at night.”

#27 “I do not expect to see home again.”

Would you make the same choice that Edward Snowden made? Most Americans would not. One CNN reporter says that he really admires Snowden because he has tried to get insiders to come forward with details about government spying for years, but none of them were ever willing to…

As a digital technology writer, I have had more than one former student and colleague tell me about digital switchers they have serviced through which calls and data are diverted to government servers or the big data algorithms they’ve written to be used on our e-mails by intelligence agencies. I always begged them to write about it or to let me do so while protecting their identities. They refused to come forward and believed my efforts to shield them would be futile. “I don’t want to lose my security clearance. Or my freedom,” one told me.

And if the U.S. government has anything to say about it, Snowden is most definitely going to pay for what he has done. In fact, according to the Daily Beast, a directorate known as “the Q Group” is already hunting Snowden down…

The people who began chasing Snowden work for the Associate Directorate for Security and Counterintelligence, according to former U.S. intelligence officers who spoke on condition of anonymity. The directorate, sometimes known as “the Q Group,” is continuing to track Snowden now that he’s outed himself as The Guardian’s source, according to the intelligence officers.

If Snowden is not already under the protection of some foreign government (such as China), it will just be a matter of time before U.S. government agents get him.

And how will they treat him once they find him? Well, one reporter overheard a group of U.S. intelligence officials talking about how Edward Snowden should be “disappeared”. The following is from a Daily Mail article that was posted on Monday…

A group of intelligence officials were overheard yesterday discussing how the National Security Agency worker who leaked sensitive documents to a reporter last week should be ‘disappeared.’

Foreign policy analyst and editor at large of The Atlantic, Steve Clemons, tweeted about the ‘disturbing’ conversation after listening in to four men who were sitting near him as he waited for a flight at Washington’s Dulles airport.

‘In Dulles UAL lounge listening to 4 US intel officials saying loudly leaker & reporter on #NSA stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit,’ he tweeted at 8:42 a.m. on Saturday.

According to Clemons, the men had been attending an event hosted by the Intelligence and National Security Alliance.

As an American, I am deeply disturbed that the U.S. government is embarrassing itself in front of the rest of the world like this.

The fact that we are collecting trillions of pieces of information on people all over the planet is a massive embarrassment and the fact that our politicians are defending this practice now that it has been exposed is a massive embarrassment.

If the U.S. government continues to act like a Big Brother police state, then the rest of the world will eventually conclude that is exactly what we are. At that point we become the “bad guy” and we lose all credibility with the rest of the planet.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/27-edward- ... ne/5338714

Snowden on the run, seeks asylum in Ecuador

[saxitoxin]

Nancy Pelosi, shaking and sweating, was booed off the stage speaking at Netroots conference today after she declared progressives and working families support the immediate arrest and firing squad execution of Snowden and that anyone who doesn't has exposed themselves as a closet right-wing extremist and is not a real progressive and is unwelcome in the new National Vanguard -



Opponents were violently dragged from the room by plainclothes agents of the Obama regime's armed police -

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/n ... 93193.html

Political dissidents fleeing the United States to go into hiding in democratic nations and escape being hunted by Obama regime internal security forces -

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-paci ... 32652.html

Obama orders U.S. satellite states, including Britain and Canada, they are not permitted to allow Snowden transit and must turn him over to their local U.S. Viceroy/Ambassador if discovered:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100836830

Will Syria offer to arm American dissidents fighting for democracy and opposed to the Obama regime?

[BigBallinStalin]

Nancy Pelosi, shaking and sweating, was booed off the stage speaking at Netroots conference today after she declared progressives and working families support the immediate arrest and firing squad execution of Snowden and that anyone who doesn't has exposed themselves as a closet right-wing extremist and is not a real progressive and is unwelcome in the new National Vanguard -


Opponents were violently dragged from the room by plainclothes agents of the Obama regime's armed police -

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/n ... 93193.html

“I look forward to working with all of you,” Pelosi continued. “Now that the public knows more – it gives us an opportunity for some of the things we’ve been advocating for a while.”

She's very manipulative a very skilled politician. This rhetoric about a balance between security and privacy/(abiding by the constitution?) sounds great, but it's too open to abuse--especially if the facts are obscured and hidden from the public.

Political dissidents fleeing the United States to go into hiding in democratic nations and escape being hunted by Obama regime internal security forces -

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-paci ... 32652.html

Which reminds me: this whole mess with the US committing "cybercrimes" against HK and China is so amusing and is hypocritical of the US.

Obama orders U.S. satellite states, including Britain and Canada, they are not permitted to allow Snowden transit and must turn him over to their local U.S. Viceroy/Ambassador if discovered:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100836830

Will Syria offer to arm American dissidents fighting for democracy and opposed to the Obama regime?

Fun question!

Do Americans really care about what the NSA does? If so, what kind of actions are they willing to take?

From what I've seen over the past 12 years, "No," and "not enough."

Does that mean that most Americans support their government's decisions in these matters? Or do they simply not care enough (e.g. most potential voters don't participate in elections)?

[Woodruff]

Do Americans really care about what the NSA does? If so, what kind of actions are they willing to take?

From what I've seen over the past 12 years, "No," and "not enough."

Does that mean that most Americans support their government's decisions in these matters? Or do they simply not care enough (e.g. most potential voters don't participate in elections)?

I think that most DO actually care and that most DON'T support these actions. That being said, I also think that they don't care ENOUGH to make the changes happen...yet. Even me. As pissed off as I am about it, I'm not yet ready to "take to the streets", as it were. I have too much at stake to do that at this point. Which is a good thing, I suppose.

[BigBallinStalin]

Do Americans really care about what the NSA does? If so, what kind of actions are they willing to take?

From what I've seen over the past 12 years, "No," and "not enough."

Does that mean that most Americans support their government's decisions in these matters? Or do they simply not care enough (e.g. most potential voters don't participate in elections)?

I think that most DO actually care and that most DON'T support these actions. That being said, I also think that they don't care ENOUGH to make the changes happen...yet. Even me. As pissed off as I am about it, I'm not yet ready to "take to the streets", as it were. I have too much at stake to do that at this point. Which is a good thing, I suppose.

Yeah, it can be a double-edged sword. One vulnerability of democracies seems that as the people generally get wealthier, they seem to have more to lose whenever they take time to participate in politics (protests, running as politician, aiding politicians, volunteer work, local city meetings, etc.).

[Phatscotty]

"My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy."

Ron Paul

[Woodruff]

"My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy."
Ron Paul

Actually, and Ron Paul certainly should know this, it appears that he has also recently provided some information to China regarding our activities involving them. So while I certainly don't disagree with Ron Paul's sentiment here, there is some legitimacy to the espionage charge in light of this.

[Nobunaga]

"My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy."
Ron Paul

Actually, and Ron Paul certainly should know this, it appears that he has also recently provided some information to China regarding our activities involving them. So while I certainly don't disagree with Ron Paul's sentiment here, there is some legitimacy to the espionage charge in light of this.

I have to agree. But I wonder if he knew anything to tell the Chinese that they didn't already know.

[Metsfanmax]

Do Americans really care about what the NSA does? If so, what kind of actions are they willing to take?

From what I've seen over the past 12 years, "No," and "not enough."

Does that mean that most Americans support their government's decisions in these matters? Or do they simply not care enough (e.g. most potential voters don't participate in elections)?

I don't know what meaningful action I can take to help change the way the NSA runs. Can someone please guide me? BBS, perhaps share your experiences in this matter?

[thegreekdog]

Do Americans really care about what the NSA does? If so, what kind of actions are they willing to take?

From what I've seen over the past 12 years, "No," and "not enough."

Does that mean that most Americans support their government's decisions in these matters? Or do they simply not care enough (e.g. most potential voters don't participate in elections)?

I don't know what meaningful action I can take to help change the way the NSA runs. Can someone please guide me? BBS, perhaps share your experiences in this matter?

I chuckled.

[Dukasaur]

"My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy."

Ron Paul

Someone should make a T-shirt of this.

[Eddygp]

The government is working to make it illegal for a person to inform the public of the government acting illegally. They praise it when a private sector person blows the whistle on illegal business activities, but they turn around and make it illegal for the same whistleblowing to happen within the government.

EXACTLY!

For God's sake, come on! People, open your eyes! The USA government is hiding illegal and controversial activities from you, whichever president there is on power, and whenever someone tries to show that all that nonsense patriotism and capitalism is being used to control everyone as well as performing military activities, they will call that person a traitor and spread sensational news everywhere to prevent the people from becoming skeptical.
Open your eyes, fight for absolute transparency and liberty!

[karel]

well all you idiots think this dick bag is a hero,well when we have another 9/11 ,im sure you all will be very,very happy about it,then you all can bitch that the nsa did not stop it,get a life