Basic Income

[DoomYoshi]

https://qz.com/876985/finland-hopes-to-dispel-one-of-the-biggest-critiques-of-a-basic-income/

In this trial period, 2,000 people aged 25 to 58 will get the monthly stipend and won’t have to report how they spend it. The trial will determine if basic income can become a “a blueprint for the Finnish social security system,” the Social Insurance Institution of Finland, or Kela, said. The scheme isn’t fully universal. Only people on unemployment benefits will be eligible and they will keep getting the money even if they get a job.

Many people say that a basic income removes the incentive for people to find work, but Finland doesn’t see it that way. Instead, the government believes standard unemployment benefits keep people from looking for work because they lose their benefits once they find a job. Under Finnish logic, people on basic income will take jobs they might otherwise not have considered such as self-employment or casual work because their benefits won’t be cut. Officials also hope they can reduce the headache of coordinating Finland’s complex social security measures, which require recipients to report when they are in and out of work.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/finland-introduces-basic-income-unemployed-170103190406168.html

The scheme, which was launched on January 1, hopes to create an incentive for more Finns to work, since the fear of losing welfare benefits make many citizens act picky about the job they would accept.

Many Finns stay out of the job market for years as they do not want to lose their welfare benefits.

Professor Olli Kangas from Kela says that there are many incentive traps in the present system that are caused by a number of income-tested benefits paid on top of each other.

Since I know several professional sponges, I can say with some degree of foreknowledge that this is a great idea.

Not covered in the articles quoted but a possible fringe benefit - snow plow drivers often don't want to work because it doesn't compare to EI and unless you plow a lot there is a net loss. This will allow more people to pick up occasional seasonal jobs like plowing snow.

[mrswdk]

It's not really a basic income if they're only giving it to unemployed people. It's just a new kind of unemployment benefit that they've branded 'basic income' because basic income is in vogue right now and Finland wants to get some kudos for being really forward thinking.

[DoomYoshi]

It's not really a basic income if they're only giving it to unemployed people. It's just a new kind of unemployment benefit that they've branded 'basic income' because basic income is in vogue right now and Finland wants to get some kudos for being really forward thinking.

It's just a test. Eventually, everybody will get it (I think that's the plan). And there are still some major differences compared to unemployment benefits, basically to do with less paperwork.

[mookiemcgee]

It's not really a basic income if they're only giving it to unemployed people. It's just a new kind of unemployment benefit that they've branded 'basic income' because basic income is in vogue right now and Finland wants to get some kudos for being really forward thinking.

You should read it more closely. Everyone gets it, not just the unemployed. That's the whole point. It's a new an interesting hybrid of socialist ideals on how a country can best treat its citizens and capitalist ideals of allowing everyone the freedom to work as much as they want or have the drive to do. It's like a twist on minimum wage but instead of fucking with business' the gov't just supplies the minimum. They could have called it a 'tax rebate' and the west would have seen it with more of an open mind but oh well... Finland doesn't care what you or I think, and it's not a publicity stunt. I'd of thought a Chinese communist like you would be in favor of such an idea gurl?

[mrswdk]

It's not really a basic income if they're only giving it to unemployed people. It's just a new kind of unemployment benefit that they've branded 'basic income' because basic income is in vogue right now and Finland wants to get some kudos for being really forward thinking.

You should read it more closely. Everyone gets it, not just the unemployed. That's the whole point.

From DY's first article, quoted by DY in his OP so that everyone could read it:

Only people on unemployment benefits will be eligible

[mrswdk]

[mookiemcgee]

I stand corrected. For the sake of the test phase, they are testing it on 2000 unemployed people. BUT - If the program went into effect nationally (assuming the test is a success) it would be available to everyone who is a citizen of working age regardless of their employment status. That is after all the point of the whole thing which you seemed not to realize in your initial post.

[mrswdk]

My point being that what Finland are doing is not a trial of basic income, even if that's what they're presenting it as. Telling a selection of unemployed people they'll have some of their benefits replaced with a guaranteed state income for two years is not a trial of the impact that basic income would have on unemployment rates. The fact it is a one-maybe-two year pilot suggests the basic income will expire at the end of the one-maybe-two years - something the unemployed people will be aware of. We can only assume that at the end of that period the participants will go back to receiving their old benefit, which if they have found employment almost certainly means their incomes will reduce compared to the income they were receiving during the pilot. This is an experiment on the impact that greater tapering of unemployment benefits has on unemployed people's job-seeking behavior.

A pilot of basic income would see a cross-section of all of society being given basic income over a much longer period, and ideally the follow-up evaluation would examine much more than just the impact on unemployed people's job-seeking.

[riskllama]

Finland should be killed.

[Dukasaur]

My point being that what Finland are doing is not a trial of basic income, even if that's what they're presenting it as. Telling a selection of unemployed people they'll have some of their benefits replaced with a guaranteed state income for two years is not a trial of the impact that basic income would have on unemployment rates. The fact it is a one-maybe-two year pilot suggests the basic income will expire at the end of the one-maybe-two years - something the unemployed people will be aware of. We can only assume that at the end of that period the participants will go back to receiving their old benefit, which if they have found employment almost certainly means their incomes will reduce compared to the income they were receiving during the pilot. This is an experiment on the impact that greater tapering of unemployment benefits has on unemployed people's job-seeking behavior.

A pilot of basic income would see a cross-section of all of society being given basic income over a much longer period, and ideally the follow-up evaluation would examine much more than just the impact on unemployed people's job-seeking.

I think you're right that a really strong test would require that it be tested across the board. Probably that would be more ambitious and expensive. It's probably almost revenue-neutral to do it this way, since most of the money is coming from existing social programs. Thus, there isn't a massive struggle to figure out where the money's coming from.

[notyou2]

Fuckin great until inflation runs rampant and gobbles up the net gain.

[Bernie Sanders]

Finland is a very educated country compared to America, they may be using their brains with this idea. America elected Trump as President, so it disqualifies it from any attempt to use it's brain power.

[mookiemcgee]

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-january-6-2016-1.3923883/ontario-considers-the-benefits-of-basic-minimum-income-1.3923916

Ontario may give it a shot too!

[tzor]

America elected Trump as President, so it disqualifies it from any attempt to use it's brain power.

The Public Education System in the United States has been dominated by the liberal unions. So if you want to see a cause for lack of brain power, look in a mirror.

By the way, Business Insider has something interesting to say about Finland and education.

Since it implemented huge education reforms 40 years ago, Finland's school system has consistently come at the top for the international rankings for education systems.

So how do they do it?

It's simple — by going against the evaluation-driven, centralized model that much of the Western world uses.

[saxitoxin]

Finland is a very educated country compared to America, they may be using their brains with this idea. America elected Trump as President, so it disqualifies it from any attempt to use it's brain power.

Richard Nixon proposed basic income in 1972 and did a trial on 8,500 people.

ITT we learn, Bernie Sanders is a Nixon supporter.

https://thecorrespondent.com/4503/the-b ... 5-c34d6145

[saxitoxin]

Congratulations, Finland, on advancing to the same point the U.S. got to in 1972!

What will Finland pioneer next?
- landing a man on the moon
- the VCR
- disco
- the wheel

[riskllama]

Finland is a very educated country compared to America, they may be using their brains with this idea. America elected Trump as President, so it disqualifies it from any attempt to use it's brain power.

Richard Nixon proposed basic income in 1972 and did a trial on 8,500 people.

ITT we learn, Bernie Sanders is a Nixon supporter.

https://thecorrespondent.com/4503/the-b ... 5-c34d6145

interesting read. thx, saxi.

[tzor]

One of the problems with people (actually government stooges) who propose a "basic income" or a "minimum wage" is that they are the ones who cause the need for a higher income in the first place, because of their egregious tax burdens on the poor. Let's look at Findland

Income Tax: At the lowest bracket is 6.5% with employer taxes of Social Security 2.12%, Pension 18.3% and Unemployment 3.2% ... Which sounds very reasonable, actually.
VAT 24% (not good), 14% food, 10% books. Such taxes are especially egregious on the poor but the VAT plague is common in Europe.

Remember that people who are unemployed still pay the same VAT that working people do, part of the employment benefit goes back to the government. A significant problem with VAT.

What I find interesting is

The scheme, which was launched on January 1, hopes to create an incentive for more Finns to work, since the fear of losing welfare benefits make many citizens act picky about the job they would accept.

Many Finns stay out of the job market for years as they do not want to lose their welfare benefits.

Which was a standard problem in the US for decades.

[Symmetry]

It's an interesting experiment. It's even more interesting how quickly people are to dismiss it out of hand. Some foks just think it's wrong without seeing if it works or not.

It's a bit depressing seeing people who work hard to deal with the problem of poverty practically begging people to take a look at the data before they slag the idea off.

[tzor]

It's an interesting experiment. It's even more interesting how quickly people are to dismiss it out of hand. Some foks just think it's wrong without seeing if it works or not.

But that's not the way things happen and you should know that. The problem with such "experiments" is that no one really looks at the end result. It's the thought that counts. When such experiments are done in the past by liberal governments and the result is complete failure, the people are lauded for at least trying to help the problem, never mind trying to figure out exactly while the idea failed in the first place and as a result some other well intentioned idiot will try it again with the same results.

It always reminds me of that Reboot episode where Enzo became the smartest program by having the CPU reduce the cycles of all the other programs. The other programs would get in his way while saying "we are helping!"

So I don't think it is wrong, but I doubt that the question of whether it "works" or not will ever be rationally studied. Once you start something it becomes hard to stop it. You don't "experiment" on the production system. Just saying.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

You don't "experiment" on the production system. Just saying.

Read, "The Toyota Way".

People dont experiment on the produciton system, but they should.

[mrswdk]

So I don't think it is wrong, but I doubt that the question of whether it "works" or not will ever be rationally studied.

You mean, apart from the follow-up evaluation that is going to be used to test the outcomes of this pilot?

[tzor]

Read, "The Toyota Way".

I don't see anything to indicate that people in Toyota implement changes in "production" without having to reach a consensus in development and some degree of testing verification. It's also not the best idea.

The Toyota Way management approach at the automaker "worked until it didn't."

Heskett, James L (2012). The culture cycle : how to shape the unseen force that transforms performance. FT Press. p. 130. ISBN 9780132779784. Retrieved 29 January 2014.

[Symmetry]

It's an interesting experiment. It's even more interesting how quickly people are to dismiss it out of hand. Some foks just think it's wrong without seeing if it works or not.

But that's not the way things happen and you should know that. The problem with such "experiments" is that no one really looks at the end result. It's the thought that counts. When such experiments are done in the past by liberal governments and the result is complete failure, the people are lauded for at least trying to help the problem, never mind trying to figure out exactly while the idea failed in the first place and as a result some other well intentioned idiot will try it again with the same results.

It always reminds me of that Reboot episode where Enzo became the smartest program by having the CPU reduce the cycles of all the other programs. The other programs would get in his way while saying "we are helping!"

So I don't think it is wrong, but I doubt that the question of whether it "works" or not will ever be rationally studied. Once you start something it becomes hard to stop it. You don't "experiment" on the production system. Just saying.

I don't really see your point. Clearly the experiment is happening and people are looking to see if it works. The basic logic behind it seems pretty sound, unless you're a diehard ideologue, of course.

One of the most interesting points about it, for me, is that it might only end up being marginally more expensive than the current welfare system. Counterintuitive, I know, but factoring in the bureaucracy required to maintain a welfare system, it kinda evens out. I find the idea fascinating.

My point about people looking for alternative solutions was that they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. I haven't seen the cartoon programme you describe, but perhaps we should see how basic income works in the real world before looking to it for answers.