College and Debt

[2dimes]

This calls for a BBQ off. We need to know if gnus taste better than llamas.

[Dukasaur]

All gnus shouldbe CONFISCATED, not jus BANNED.

I don't care about the right to bear GNUS.....LoL
]

But bears care about the right to eat gnus.

[DoomYoshi]

Most of europe can offer cheaper and better education

Top 30 universities in the world:

US - 15
UK - 6
China - 4
Switzerland - 2
Singapore - 2
Japan - 1
Australia - 1

https://www.topuniversities.com/univers ... kings/2018

I disagree with their measurement entirely. I knew it was suspect when the UK number was 6 instead of the 3. The link won't load so I can't tell what measure they are using, but I'll bet they aren't measuring liberal arts programs.

[Thorthoth]

...but I'll bet they aren't measuring liberal arts programs.

Oh, such sarcasm.

[mrswdk]

Most of europe can offer cheaper and better education

Top 30 universities in the world:

US - 15
UK - 6
China - 4
Switzerland - 2
Singapore - 2
Japan - 1
Australia - 1

https://www.topuniversities.com/univers ... kings/2018

I disagree with their measurement entirely. I knew it was suspect when the UK number was 6 instead of the 3. The link won't load so I can't tell what measure they are using, but I'll bet they aren't measuring liberal arts programs.

I don’t know what liberal arts is but it sounds pointless.

[jfm10]

i wouldnt trust anything that gives the top 30 but has numbers adding to 31

[mrswdk]

Oops, good point. I had added an extra 1 for China by mistake. Updated.

Top 30 universities in the world:

US - 15
UK - 6
China - 3
Switzerland - 2
Singapore - 2
Japan - 1
Australia - 1

https://www.topuniversities.com/univers ... kings/2018

Also just to add to that, the highest ranked continental European university that is not Swiss* is one of the French grand ecoles (ecole normale superieure), which places behind numerous Korea, Chinese, Japanese, Australian, American and British universities. That is the only continental European university in the world's top 50.

So yes, continental Europe certainly has 'cheap' education nailed. Now it just needs to work on the 'better' part!




*waauw has already excluded Switzerland from his list of 'European' countries because by his reckoning Swiss universities are only good because intelligent foreigners attend them and drag up the grade average

[waauw]

*waauw has already excluded Switzerland from his list of 'European' countries because by his reckoning Swiss universities are only good because intelligent foreigners attend them and drag up the grade average

Again, I'll repeat my previous point. You are comparing countries only on the top performers. Those are universities who attract massive numbers of foreign students. In the USA the ratio of foreigners/natives in masters and doctoral studies is atrocious. Many of these top universities serve to attract minds from abroad and raise them to graduate and post-graduate degrees, which is all fine and well but not if it comes at the cost of negligence towards the middle and lower parts of the bell curve where the actual american students reside. The current system works well to support the american economy and the american corporations, but not the masses of american citizens. This is not only an unfair system towards the average american student, but also an unstable system. According to university professors less and less asian students who study in america actually stay in america. When living standards and opportunities grow in asia, it becomes much less attractive for these smartest and brightest to pick the USA over their own home countries. Your own nation, China, is a fine example of this with more and more chinese students optimistic of a future for themselves in their own country rather than elsewhere.

Fyi, some years back a Swiss referendum decided to limit EU immigrants to Switzerland. The EU decided to reciprocate by kicking the the Swiss out of ERASMUS(the european educational system) making it more difficult for Switzerland to attract intelligent minds from the rest of the continent. This alone was sufficient for the Swiss to abandon their referendum outcome and come begging back on their knees.

[Bernie Sanders]

*waauw has already excluded Switzerland from his list of 'European' countries because by his reckoning Swiss universities are only good because intelligent foreigners attend them and drag up the grade average

Again, I'll repeat my previous point. You are comparing countries only on the top performers. Those are universities who attract massive numbers of foreign students. In the USA the ratio of foreigners/natives in masters and doctoral studies is atrocious. Many of these top universities serve to attract minds from abroad and raise them to graduate and post-graduate degrees, which is all fine and well but not if it comes at the cost of negligence towards the middle and lower parts of the bell curve where the actual american students reside. The current system works well to support the american economy and the american corporations, but not the masses of american citizens. This is not only an unfair system towards the average american student, but also an unstable system. According to university professors less and less asian students who study in america actually stay in america. When living standards and opportunities grow in asia, it becomes much less attractive for these smartest and brightest to pick the USA over their own home countries. Your own nation, China, is a fine example of this with more and more chinese students optimistic of a future for themselves in their own country rather than elsewhere.

Fyi, some years back a Swiss referendum decided to limit EU immigrants to Switzerland. The EU decided to reciprocate by kicking the the Swiss out of ERASMUS(the european educational system) making it more difficult for Switzerland to attract intelligent minds from the rest of the continent. This alone was sufficient for the Swiss to abandon their referendum outcome and come begging back on their knees.

As far as foreigners that attend US universities are concerned. It's not the quality of education they want, it's the green card to work in America.

Fukn foreigners! Lowering our pay scales and further enriching the American Oligarchs!

[mrswdk]

*waauw has already excluded Switzerland from his list of 'European' countries because by his reckoning Swiss universities are only good because intelligent foreigners attend them and drag up the grade average

Again, I'll repeat my previous point. You are comparing countries only on the top performers. Those are universities who attract massive numbers of foreign students.

QS bases their rankings almost entirely upon the quality of teaching and research at the universities in its list. Neither of those have anything to do with the caliber of students those universities attract.

In the USA the ratio of foreigners/natives in masters and doctoral studies is atrocious.

The website actually states the exact numbers of UG/PG students at each university who are are domestic/international. Looking at the world #1, MIT: there are 6,640 postgraduate students, of whom 631 are international. So, just under 10% of all postgrad students at MIT are non-Americans.

How does that compare to Belgium's top university, KU Leuven? 1,524 out of 23,680 postgraduate students at KU Leuven are international. That's 6%.

So according to waauw:

- Belgium's top university, KU Leuven, has 6% international postgraduates, an appropriate amount which shows that Belgium is doing great work putting Belgium's youth through a good education
- The world's top university, MIT, has 10% international postgraduates, which is atrocious and proves that MIT is an ivory tower educating the world's elite at America's expense

[waauw]

How does that compare to Belgium's top university, KU Leuven? 1,524 out of 23,680 postgraduate students at KU Leuven are international. That's 6%.

So according to waauw:

- Belgium's top university, KU Leuven, has 6% international postgraduates, an appropriate amount which shows that Belgium is doing great work putting Belgium's youth through a good education
- The world's top university, MIT, has 10% international postgraduates, which is atrocious and proves that MIT is an ivory tower educating the world's elite at America's expense

I know, that's because increasingly the educational system in the EU has to be seen as a whole rather than that of individual nations. The EU is putting in a lot of effort to make students study in other EU nations. This is nothing like the anglo-saxon system. Don't just take numbers at face value.

Now don't get me wrong, as mentioned before the anglo-saxon system has its merits. But I don't understand how you can keep denying that the system also has its own inherently structural flaws.

[DoomYoshi]

Most of europe can offer cheaper and better education

Top 30 universities in the world:

US - 15
UK - 6
China - 4
Switzerland - 2
Singapore - 2
Japan - 1
Australia - 1

https://www.topuniversities.com/univers ... kings/2018

I disagree with their measurement entirely. I knew it was suspect when the UK number was 6 instead of the 3. The link won't load so I can't tell what measure they are using, but I'll bet they aren't measuring liberal arts programs.

I don’t know what liberal arts is but it sounds pointless.

Grammar (how to confedSS), rhetoric (how to Trump), logic, music, math and astronomy

[mookiemcgee]

My college cost around 40k. Now I drive a truck, which cost ~200 bucks to get licensed.

Yeah but thats 40k in that colo(u)rful plastic monopoly money right? So about 200$ US?

[mrswdk]

How does that compare to Belgium's top university, KU Leuven? 1,524 out of 23,680 postgraduate students at KU Leuven are international. That's 6%.

So according to waauw:

- Belgium's top university, KU Leuven, has 6% international postgraduates, an appropriate amount which shows that Belgium is doing great work putting Belgium's youth through a good education
- The world's top university, MIT, has 10% international postgraduates, which is atrocious and proves that MIT is an ivory tower educating the world's elite at America's expense

I know, that's because increasingly the educational system in the EU has to be seen as a whole rather than that of individual nations. The EU is putting in a lot of effort to make students study in other EU nations. This is nothing like the anglo-saxon system. Don't just take numbers at face value.

So when an American university accepts international students, this is bad because it excludes American students and does nothing to benefit America.

But when a Belgian university accepts a similar proportion of international students, it's okay because (according to you) most of them come from other European countries and that means that none of the arguments that you made against international students apply.

Now don't get me wrong, as mentioned before the anglo-saxon system has its merits. But I don't understand how you can keep denying that the system also has its own inherently structural flaws.

I don't see how have a more diverse student base is a bad thing. Your argument is that accepting more international students means that fewer domestic students are able to attend,

Your criticism is based on an assumption that accepting international students means domestic students aren't given the opportunity to attend university, a criticism you aim at both American and British universities. Leaving aside the fact that we've already seen that British universities aren't really any more international than other European ones, the proportion of British people who go to university is higher than almost any other country in Europe. The only countries in Europe where more people get a tertiary education are Cyprus, Luxembourg and Ireland. British people don't appear to have any difficulty accessing tertiary education than people from other European countries.

Do you have anything to support your claims except hyperbole?

[waauw]

So when an American university accepts international students, this is bad because it excludes American students and does nothing to benefit America.

But when a Belgian university accepts a similar proportion of international students, it's okay because (according to you) most of them come from other European countries and that means that none of the arguments that you made against international students apply.

You claimed to have received classes in statistical analysis in your undergrad studies. Surely you must know then that you can't just merely glance at a number and form a conclusion. You need to understand what's behind it.

Now don't get me wrong, as mentioned before the anglo-saxon system has its merits. But I don't understand how you can keep denying that the system also has its own inherently structural flaws.

I don't see how have a more diverse student base is a bad thing. Your argument is that accepting more international students means that fewer domestic students are able to attend,

Your criticism is based on an assumption that accepting international students means domestic students aren't given the opportunity to attend university, a criticism you aim at both American and British universities. Leaving aside the fact that we've already seen that British universities aren't really any more international than other European ones, the proportion of British people who go to university is higher than almost any other country in Europe. The only countries in Europe where more people get a tertiary education are Cyprus, Luxembourg and Ireland. British people don't appear to have any difficulty accessing tertiary education than people from other European countries.

Do you have anything to support your claims except hyperbole?

I'm not saying having a large mass of international students is bad. I'm saying the same system that attracts many international students also inherently builds inferior education at the bottom of the chain. It's basic market economics. In every sector for every top performing business you also have a multitude of underperforming failing businesses. This might be fine when talking of ordinary products and services, but when applied on something as deeply pertinent as education, it results to perverse effects.

In this the USA is an extreme, applying more market conditions than almost anyone else. The EU on the other hand has placed itself in an almost opposite extreme as well, with a lot more central direction. The UK is somewhere in between and subject to positives and negatives from both sides of the spectrum.