Music Thread: This Is America (NSFW)

[mrswdk]

There's a old quote that goes something like "writing about art is like dancing about architecture". I don't really agree, but there is a fair point in that.

It's interesting that some folk are so quick to dismiss it as a subject of conversation, and for weird reasons.

Mrsdwk- you say that because it was questioned and discussed by millions of people, it's not being questioned? That's an odd take.

I have no idea what you are getting at when you say 'questioned' but I never used that word. Reading comprehension fail.

[Symmetry]

There's a old quote that goes something like "writing about art is like dancing about architecture". I don't really agree, but there is a fair point in that.

It's interesting that some folk are so quick to dismiss it as a subject of conversation, and for weird reasons.

Mrsdwk- you say that because it was questioned and discussed by millions of people, it's not being questioned? That's an odd take.

I have no idea what you are getting at when you say 'questioned' but I never used that word. Reading comprehension fail.

How weird- here you are saying that:

He probably just realized that if he put a bunch of black people, some police and some guns, everyone would jerk themselves senseless about how relevant and woke he is without even questioning it.

What were you trying to say?

[mrswdk]

Yes, I said the relevance or insightfulness of it was not really being questioned. You then followed that up with 'you say it was questioned'. No, my brother, that is literally the opposite of what I said.

Way to bring all the evidence together in one place and then double down on your faceplant.

[Symmetry]

Yes, I said the relevance or insightful of it was not really being questioned. You then followed that up with 'you say it was questioned'. No, my brother, that is literally the opposite of what I said.

Way to bring all the evidence together in one place and then double down on your faceplant.

You also said, in the same post:

I feel like if he was really trying to say any of that he'd just do it in a way that's clear, rather than making a weird video that has been interpreted in 1,000,000 different ways already.

I guess I'm trying to ask you how you reconcile those wildly irreconcilable views?

[mrswdk]

Questioning whether or not the video is actually clever and relevant at all =/= interpreting the video as having all sorts of different subtexts and meanings.

This is why I don't rate you as a troll. It's because you're not, really. You try to have serious conversations, then you say something that's incorrect and when you get called out on it just start weaseling and try to make it look like your intention was to troll people the whole time.



You'll now say something like "interesting that you think trying to understand black people's experiences of society is trolling, that says a lot about you". I can write the rest of this thread myself.

[Symmetry]

Questioning whether or not the video is actually clever and relevant at all =/= interpreting the video as having all sorts of different subtexts and meanings.

This is why I don't rate you as a troll. It's because you're not, really. You try to have serious conversations, then you say something that's incorrect and when you get called out on it just start weaseling and try to make it look like your intention was to troll people the whole time.



You'll now say something like "interesting that you think showing sympathy for black people is trolling, that says a lot about you". I can write the rest of this thread myself.

And posting this kind of nonsense is why you actually are a troll.

[mrswdk]

Right on cue.

[Symmetry]

Right on cue.

You done?

[thegreekdog]

At the risk of involving myself in this, I think what mrs is saying is that certain people are super excited about this video and certain people don't give a flying f*ck. Presumably, Glover wanted to make a song and video for a particular reason. The people that are super excited about the song and video are people who already believe everything Glover is saying in the song and video. The people that don't give a flying f*ck don't... um... care what Glover is saying. If Glover's goal was to educate the masses as to certain US societal ills, I'm not sure he did that. It's like if someone put out a song and accompanying video with the message "the earth is round" and everyone who acknowledged the earth is round got super excited and were fellating Glover on how intelligent and forward-thinking he is even though those same people believed the earth was round prior to Glover's video. To put it yet another way, NWA wrote this song 30 years ago.

[mrswdk]

It's more that I don't think he really has anything to say in the first place. Like, the video just plays on race, guns etc. without actually expressing any kind of coherent message about them. Or maybe it is just boring because any message it does have is so trite and overplayed already.

So sort of like you say, yeah. The only people getting excited are people who already have a hard on for complaining about racism, guns etc. and see this video as another chance to do that.

[Neoteny]

Oh my god I had like a five paragraph essay using NWA as a comparison point for crystalizing cultural perspectives (it wasn't novel for them either, just a novel medium) and calling thegreekdog an artistic cabbage and that people who get upset that a music video is complaining about racism are racists but the website ate it so you just get this cliff's notes version.

[thegreekdog]

Oh my god I had like a five paragraph essay using NWA as a comparison point for crystalizing cultural perspectives (it wasn't novel for them either, just a novel medium) and calling thegreekdog an artistic cabbage and that people who get upset that a music video is complaining about racism are racists but the website ate it so you just get this cliff's notes version.

To be fair, I am absolutely an artistic cabbage. I like my art devoid of cultural, political, or racial commentary. Let me put it this way, one of my favorite bands of all time is Rage Against the Machine and my politics are about exactly opposite of Zack de la Rocha.

Also, I'm not upset about the video. I'm upset that people think the video is something wonderfully novel and will have some great impact on the cultural and political views of a wide swath of Americans. I mean, people are calling Donald Glover a genius. That's just dumb, regardless of whether you agree with his politics and views on race relations in the US.

Also also, I mean NWA had this exact same song and political commentary 30 years ago.

[Neoteny]

But why do you care though? What is it about these people who really like a music video that draws your attention? People think Elon Musk is a genius too. People fall all over themselves about Jeff Bezos despite him essentially being a feudal lord. Why make your stand about whether a rapper is an artistic genius (a field you admit is not your strongest)? What is it that makes the thought so anathema that you feel the need to criticize it at the point of Glover getting too much credit? I mean, the only real criticism one should make about the artistic genius of the video (because genius is so subjective, especially with art) is whether Glover is taking too much of the credit that should be going to Hiro Murai. But I don't see you making that argument.

Hey man, it's ok to dislike the video. It's ok to disagree with the politics. But why stop someone from getting credit for producing something people are really comnecting with? NWA isn't relevant to teenagers. "f*ck the Police" still bangs, but it's old. You have to recognize the cultural power of old media vs new at the very least. If your real barebones perspective is "NWA already did it," then you are vastly ignorant of how culture works. "The Simpsons did it" is funny, but doesn't negate the power of modern comedy.

Why did you decide to wade in? The easy answer is that we're on a forum where that's encouraged. But why pick the side you did?

[mrswdk]

For me I didn't care until one of the main articles on my BBC news app the other day was the art critic jerking himself senseless gushing on and on about how great the video for This Is America is.

Like, the BBC is the only news app I have because it's usually the only one with reasonable news on it. I'd rather it stayed that way.

Same as how the whole 'cultural appropriation' thing doesn't really bother me, but if someone gets in my face telling me I'm not allowed to wear this or listen to that because 'cultural appropriation' then that will annoy me.

[thegreekdog]

But why do you care though? What is it about these people who really like a music video that draws your attention? People think Elon Musk is a genius too. People fall all over themselves about Jeff Bezos despite him essentially being a feudal lord. Why make your stand about whether a rapper is an artistic genius (a field you admit is not your strongest)? What is it that makes the thought so anathema that you feel the need to criticize it at the point of Glover getting too much credit? I mean, the only real criticism one should make about the artistic genius of the video (because genius is so subjective, especially with art) is whether Glover is taking too much of the credit that should be going to Hiro Murai. But I don't see you making that argument.

Hey man, it's ok to dislike the video. It's ok to disagree with the politics. But why stop someone from getting credit for producing something people are really comnecting with? NWA isn't relevant to teenagers. "f*ck the Police" still bangs, but it's old. You have to recognize the cultural power of old media vs new at the very least. If your real barebones perspective is "NWA already did it," then you are vastly ignorant of how culture works. "The Simpsons did it" is funny, but doesn't negate the power of modern comedy.

Why did you decide to wade in? The easy answer is that we're on a forum where that's encouraged. But why pick the side you did?

There is a difference between saying "Donald Glover is a musical genius" and "Donald Glover affects social change." I'm not saying Donald Glover is not a musical genius. I like the song; it's good. I've listened to it a number of times. I like Rage Against the Machine. I've listened to that band my whole life. I like NWA. I would venture to say all of those groups and people are musical geniuses.

What I am saying is Donald Glover's music video is not affecting social change. This music video does zero to help the issues he's trying to call attention to. At least Rage Against the Machine popularized anti-America social commentary. At least NWA called attention to police brutality in a mainstream way. Donald Glover didn't call attention to anything in a mainstream way. There is already a significant amount of attention on police brutality and racism in the United States. Donald Glover may be a music genius, but he's not affecting social change. The people out there getting excited about this video are talking about Donald Glover affecting some kind of social awakening. He's not. I'm pretty conservative (or libertarian). I'm white and live in the suburbs. Donald Glover's video didn't awaken anything for me and not because I disagree with him. I agree with everything he stands for. It didn't awaken anything for anyone else either, so why pretend it does?

[Dukasaur]

Oh my god I had like a five paragraph essay using NWA as a comparison point for crystalizing cultural perspectives (it wasn't novel for them either, just a novel medium) and calling thegreekdog an artistic cabbage and that people who get upset that a music video is complaining about racism are racists but the website ate it so you just get this cliff's notes version.

To be fair, I am absolutely an artistic cabbage. I like my art devoid of cultural, political, or racial commentary. Let me put it this way, one of my favorite bands of all time is Rage Against the Machine and my politics are about exactly opposite of Zack de la Rocha.

Also, I'm not upset about the video. I'm upset that people think the video is something wonderfully novel and will have some great impact on the cultural and political views of a wide swath of Americans. I mean, people are calling Donald Glover a genius. That's just dumb, regardless of whether you agree with his politics and views on race relations in the US.

Also also, I mean NWA had this exact same song and political commentary 30 years ago.

I don't remember who it was who said, "Great art isn't about supplying the answers. Great art is about asking the questions."

Being blatantly partisan and selling some particular solution is not what art is for. Artists who do that are cringe-worthy. Making people stop and think about an issue and letting them form their own conclusions is what high art is. Or no conclusions at all, if at least they spend some time pondering.

In that, I think this video is successful. Judging by the commentary, a lot of people have taken some time to stop and ponder, and that's all that an artist is expected to do. I don't know if he's selling gun control or any other specific position, and I wouldn't care if he was. Making you take some time out of your busy day to ponder is the measure of his success.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I'm not saying Donald Glover is not a musical genius. I like the song; it's good. I've listened to it a number of times. I like Rage Against the Machine. I've listened to that band my whole life. I like NWA. I would venture to say all of those groups and people are musical geniuses.

Oh come on. "Genius" is one of those overused words. None of these acts are musical geniuses. They may be good or talented, but they are each a far cry from geniuses.

[thegreekdog]

Oh my god I had like a five paragraph essay using NWA as a comparison point for crystalizing cultural perspectives (it wasn't novel for them either, just a novel medium) and calling thegreekdog an artistic cabbage and that people who get upset that a music video is complaining about racism are racists but the website ate it so you just get this cliff's notes version.

To be fair, I am absolutely an artistic cabbage. I like my art devoid of cultural, political, or racial commentary. Let me put it this way, one of my favorite bands of all time is Rage Against the Machine and my politics are about exactly opposite of Zack de la Rocha.

Also, I'm not upset about the video. I'm upset that people think the video is something wonderfully novel and will have some great impact on the cultural and political views of a wide swath of Americans. I mean, people are calling Donald Glover a genius. That's just dumb, regardless of whether you agree with his politics and views on race relations in the US.

Also also, I mean NWA had this exact same song and political commentary 30 years ago.

I don't remember who it was who said, "Great art isn't about supplying the answers. Great art is about asking the questions."

Being blatantly partisan and selling some particular solution is not what art is for. Artists who do that are cringe-worthy. Making people stop and think about an issue and letting them form their own conclusions is what high art is. Or no conclusions at all, if at least they spend some time pondering.

In that, I think this video is successful. Judging by the commentary, a lot of people have taken some time to stop and ponder, and that's all that an artist is expected to do. I don't know if he's selling gun control or any other specific position, and I wouldn't care if he was. Making you take some time out of your busy day to ponder is the measure of his success.

Ponder what? In this thread, we're pondering why people think the video is cutting edge or effective social commentary. We're not pondering the social commentary itself.

[thegreekdog]

I'm not saying Donald Glover is not a musical genius. I like the song; it's good. I've listened to it a number of times. I like Rage Against the Machine. I've listened to that band my whole life. I like NWA. I would venture to say all of those groups and people are musical geniuses.

Oh come on. "Genius" is one of those overused words. None of these acts are musical geniuses. They may be good or talented, but they are each a far cry from geniuses.

I mean... okay. I think Tom Morello probably qualifies as a musical genius; he went to Harvard and his guitar playing was cutting edge. I also think NWA qualifies as well given that they popularized gansta rap. It's okay if you don't like them. You don't have to like musical geniuses. I don't like the Beatles and I can acknowledge their musical prowess. Also, not the point of my post. The point of my post is on the social commentary that Donald Glover is selling, not whether he is or isn't a good musician.

[DoomYoshi]

Why don't you consider Colombians to be Americans? You might need to challenge some of your most basic assumptions here.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Yeah my post is beside the point, which i agree with, but musical genius is when mozart transcribes the miserere perfectly after listening to it once. Not because morello can play rock music with a slide.

Mozart vs Salieri. Morello and the others might be very good, but they aren't mozart, they're salieri.

I'm dubious that anything within gangsta rap would ever near musical genius.

[thegreekdog]

Yeah my post is beside the point, which i agree with, but musical genius is when mozart transcribes the miserere perfectly after listening to it once. Not because morello can play rock music with a slide.

Mozart vs Salieri. Morello and the others might be very good, but they aren't mozart, they're salieri.

I'm dubious that anything within gangsta rap would ever near musical genius.

Poetic genius maybe? De la Rocha was certainly a poetic genius.

And I don't know about Morello; he did some crazy shit with a guitar.

[Symmetry]

I think it's a flawed assumption that Glover is trying to change the entire world with a music video, and any attempt at judging it based on that shaky foundation is always gonna see it as a failure.

I see it more as a satire than a manifesto. At that, it's really well done. It's also, I think, meant to be something that should be discussed, rather than being didactic. In that, it's also been incredibly successful.

[mrswdk]

Why don't you consider Colombians to be Americans? You might need to challenge some of your most basic assumptions here.

Thomas Jefferson was a Colombian.

[Neoteny]

There is a difference between saying "Donald Glover is a musical genius" and "Donald Glover affects social change." I'm not saying Donald Glover is not a musical genius. I like the song; it's good. I've listened to it a number of times. I like Rage Against the Machine. I've listened to that band my whole life. I like NWA. I would venture to say all of those groups and people are musical geniuses.

What I am saying is Donald Glover's music video is not affecting social change. This music video does zero to help the issues he's trying to call attention to. At least Rage Against the Machine popularized anti-America social commentary. At least NWA called attention to police brutality in a mainstream way. Donald Glover didn't call attention to anything in a mainstream way. There is already a significant amount of attention on police brutality and racism in the United States. Donald Glover may be a music genius, but he's not affecting social change. The people out there getting excited about this video are talking about Donald Glover affecting some kind of social awakening. He's not. I'm pretty conservative (or libertarian). I'm white and live in the suburbs. Donald Glover's video didn't awaken anything for me and not because I disagree with him. I agree with everything he stands for. It didn't awaken anything for anyone else either, so why pretend it does?

Haha ok man. If you, a white suburbanite, are saying that large numbers of people are declaring that this song and video are "effecting social change," who am I to criticize that? I'm sure these people exist and are numerous and are making that statement a full week after its release. And these people making such an ignorant statement just need to realize they are wrong.

Gotcha.