Resistance Intimidating Trump Supporters

[thegreekdog]

Christ I didn't want this.

Just so I'm clear on your numbers, where does the $37 trillion or so expected to be paid by the public into our current healthcare system that would be freed up by the Sanders plan go? The capital gains and defense cuts are for other things btw.

Hint: it goes to covering the shortfall and 2 trillion (over ten years of course) stays in our pockets.

Oh, you're right. It's $32 trillion that we're not paying for healthcare any more (not $2 trillion). Got it.

[Neoteny]

Oh, you're right. It's $32 trillion that we're not paying for healthcare any more (not $2 trillion). Got it.

Unrelated - I love this line from jacobin:

This is the kind of nonsense we are dealing with here. Tribal affiliations are getting in the way of basic presentations of facts and figures.

Heh, you're hoist(ing?) yourself upon your own petard a bit here. Hoisting, right? That's such a weird phrase.

Anyhow, you're succumbing both to the tribalism you are mocking and the failure of data-driven discourse you bemoaned so diligently earlier. Bruenig has several more articles on the discourse surrounding these analyses in Jacobin that I can provide if you want wherein he continues discussing the failure of these media outlets, from the AP to WaPo and elsewhere, to communicate what these reports are indicating, and how it relates to ol' Bernie's plan. Let me revise your South Park reference.

1. Gov. contribution in current system is $21.927 trillion of the $59.653 trillion in total healthcare spending

2. Therefore $59.653 trillion - $21.927 trillion = $37.726 trillion is covered by non-government spending. That's how much people like you and I are paying currently.

3. Under Bernie's m4a plan, total spending according to these analyses will drop to $57.599 trillion over the ten year span. Remember this is corroborated by partisan and bipartisan/independent analysis. If you want to nitpick Bernie's plan, go for it, but I ain't got time to be reading these bills. Anyhow, the 59-57 here is where the two trillion in savings come from. You don't just subtract it at the end like a dumbshit.

4. Of that, now lower, total spending, gov. spending is expected to be $54.571 trillion which does increase spending to the effect of ($54.571 – $21.927) $32.644 trillion. This is the number everyone is tripping over their dicks about.

5. Meanwhile, spending by us regular folks drops from $37.726 trillion to ($57.599 - $54.571) $3.028 trillion dollars. I'm not sure what that is coming from actually, because apparently nobody has bothered to report on it that I have seen. Maybe we're still contributing to prescription costs or something. Anyhow, that's about 34 trillion dollars in saving on our end, which will go back to the government (no defense spending or corporate gains taxes required) minus the approximately two trillion dollars that you had no fucking idea where it came from or what to do with.

6. I cockslap you. And if you need to divide it annually so your beady little eyes can process the numbers, move the decimal point to the left one. I don't know if that's how the breakdown works, or if the numbers are front- or back-loaded, but it doesn't matter for our purposes.

7. Universal Healthcare in the US, and two trillion dollars saved.

Like, this was reported in such a way that a lot of people didn't understand what was going on, so don't despair too much. But that 2 trillion dollar savings is still there, and it is distributed amongst taxpayers over the ten year projection.

[Neoteny]

Hey greek, did you have a chance to check my math?

[thegreekdog]

I did. I have one non-ideological quibble:

5. Meanwhile, spending by us regular folks drops from $37.726 trillion to ($57.599 - $54.571) $3.028 trillion dollars. I'm not sure what that is coming from actually, because apparently nobody has bothered to report on it that I have seen. Maybe we're still contributing to prescription costs or something. Anyhow, that's about 34 trillion dollars in saving on our end, which will go back to the government (no defense spending or corporate gains taxes required) minus the approximately two trillion dollars that you had no fucking idea where it came from or what to do with.

How does the "which will go back to the government" work? Does that mean we'll be spending $0 on healthcare but $34 trillion in taxes to the government to pay for healthcare?

From an ideological perspective, I'm skeptical for all sorts of reasons but we know what those are and can leave those out for now.

[Neoteny]

Yeah, it's obviously going to be taxed back up to fund the plan. The selling point is the overall savings and the millions of people who gain insurance who didn't have it. How that works in practice and how much is covered by whom is, I'm assuming, listed somewhere, but, like I've said, I'm not reading the bill. And, yeah, I don't want to argue about whether taxation is theft anymore than you do.

Anybody see Obama endorsed this plan? Imagine if we had had a Democrat president with a Democrat-controlled Congress to work on health reform. Just imagine.

[thegreekdog]

Yeah, it's obviously going to be taxed back up to fund the plan. The selling point is the overall savings and the millions of people who gain insurance who didn't have it. How that works in practice and how much is covered by whom is, I'm assuming, listed somewhere, but, like I've said, I'm not reading the bill. And, yeah, I don't want to argue about whether taxation is theft anymore than you do.

Anybody see Obama endorsed this plan? Imagine if we had had a Democrat president with a Democrat-controlled Congress to work on health reform. Just imagine.

My taxation is theft argument notwithstanding, I do not think the government can efficiently run healthcare. That being typed, the government has fucked healthcare up so much that I'm not sure our current system can efficiently run healthcare.

A few tidbits:

- All the supporters of the Affordable Care Act kept saying in those heady days was "this will not lead to government healthcare" and all the opponents said "yes, it will." I guess the opponents will be right (when, in 2020, we have a Democrat president and Democrat-controlled Congress). Small comfort I suppose.
- That being typed, I'm not convinced Democrats actually want universal healthcare or health insurance. There's something to be said for the ACA's health insurance company boondoggle. Politicians like getting money from companies and individuals, no matter which side of the aisle such politicians are from.

[Neoteny]

Yeah, I think they're definitely torn between their poorer constituents and their lobbying overlords.

My recollection of the ACA clusterfuck (and I'm on record here supporting the damn thing) is that the public option was removed (I think due to a Joe Lieberman holdout?) pretty early on to make it a pretty clear subsidy to insurance companies. If it had gone through as originally proposed, I don't think the Dems would have the incentive to even try pushing m4a through. But we got that whale on top of an already bloodthirsty private healthcare system which just made everything worse.

[Neoteny]

I might be interested in some sort of prediction thread as to what Congress and the white house will look like after midterms and after 2020.

[thegreekdog]

Yeah, I think they're definitely torn between their poorer constituents and their lobbying overlords.

My recollection of the ACA clusterfuck (and I'm on record here supporting the damn thing) is that the public option was removed (I think due to a Joe Lieberman holdout?) pretty early on to make it a pretty clear subsidy to insurance companies. If it had gone through as originally proposed, I don't think the Dems would have the incentive to even try pushing m4a through. But we got that whale on top of an already bloodthirsty private healthcare system which just made everything worse.

Other than the bloodthirsty rhetoric, that sounds about right. I'm interested to see how long it takes AOC to be corrupted.

I might be interested in some sort of prediction thread as to what Congress and the white house will look like after midterms and after 2020.

Meh, no one is using this thread anymore. I'm guessing fairly large House majority for Dems; Dem in white house; senate still Republican. My dark horse pick is Dem House, Republican Senate, Republican-other-than-Trump president.

[spurgistan]

While two years is a long time (I remember back in 2006 when Rudy was gonna be president in 2008) I find it hard to believe a Republican emerges nationally who is able to separate himself (I mean maybe herself, but come on) from Trump, which would be the only way a non-Trump R wins the presidency in 2020. I would consider a Dem house and presidency facing off against a R senate and supreme court to be interesting. In a dysfunctional way, of course.

[thegreekdog]

While two years is a long time (I remember back in 2006 when Rudy was gonna be president in 2008) I find it hard to believe a Republican emerges nationally who is able to separate himself (I mean maybe herself, but come on) from Trump, which would be the only way a non-Trump R wins the presidency in 2020. I would consider a Dem house and presidency facing off against a R senate and supreme court to be interesting. In a dysfunctional way, of course.

I agree... I would find it fascinating. There was a point in time when the House was almost always way Dem majority.

I think it's unlikely a non-Trump Republican wins the nomination for lots of reasons, not the least of which is the economy is doing extremely well. That won't help Trump get reelected, but it will help Trump not have a material primary challenger.

[Neoteny]

I'm finding it hard to believe the senate turns in 2018, though the house should be able to flip, but I think it'll be closer than a lot of Dems are expecting. I think the Dems take back the presidency, but narrowly, because I don't think Trump will run again (and I think the Republicans will be able to capitalize on that). They might be able to take back the senate then, but I am really bearish on the senate for some reason. I would not be shocked if the Reps hold it.

[Neoteny]

I guess the reason I'm down on the senate is because it is undemocratic garbage, but you know.