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The United States of America

Postby Keefie on Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:29 am

What a sad day for democracy and the rule of law. What is happening this evening in the Disunited States of America is a perfect example of how dangerous it is to allow an unhinged individual to lead a country completely unchecked. It is a perfect example of what happens when you allow people to spread so many conspiracy theories, disinformation, misinformation and lies without any consequence or calling to account.

The whole world is watching America, it is watching in complete disbelief. How can the people of a once great nation allow this to happen? How can they be brainwashed in to believing the lies and deception of one man? How can an elected official be allowed to cause so much damage to such a great country, to such a great people? How can he be allowed to carry on?

Absolutely shameful.

God protect the USA
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Re: The United States of America

Postby Capitiane Verte on Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:44 am

From here in Australia, watched the news reports in disbelief - thought CNN Stephen Collinson and Caitlin Hu summed it up well

'This is not America'

An explosion was bound to happen, after four years of incitement, conspiracy mongering, lying and pitting Americans against one another. And it happened on Wednesday in Washington, when an enraged mob sacked the US Capitol for the first time since the British in 1814.

The violent invasion saw lawmakers cowering under their seats, police guns drawn in the House of Representatives and MAGA mutineers roaming the Senate -- and interrupted the ceremonial process confirming Joe Biden’s election victory. In other words, the sitting President of the United States incited thugs to attack the citadel of his nation’s democracy and block the will of the people delivered in a free election. The rest of the world looked on in horror.

The question now is whether Wednesday’s outrage will be a one-off eruption, and eventually just an awful memory of a presidency that tore the country apart. Most Trump supporters are not violent. But millions of them believe his lie that the election was stolen — and fear their country is being taken away from them. So Wednesday's mobbing of the Capitol could be just the crest of a wave of political fury that will long outlast Trump's term.

There is also the question of what should happen to the unstable, vengeful President himself. What worse havoc could a wrathful Trump wreak in his remaining 13 days in office? ”He's out of his mind," one source who has frequent contact with the President told CNN’s Jim Acosta. Some Democratic lawmakers have already called for a fast-track impeachment that would allow Vice President Mike Pence to finish Trump's term. Even members of the President's Cabinet are exploring whether to invoke the 25th Amendment if they conclude that he is no longer fit to serve.

Many in Washington have enabled Trump’s criminal presidency this far. But even they have to answer the question: If openly inciting a coup attempt does not merit a President's removal from office, what does?
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Re: The United States of America

Postby mookiemcgee on Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:30 am

Truly a sad day.

America, don't forget who you are.

-mook


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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:42 am

While president Trump has a rather large part in this. Do we not need to blame those that called to chase people out of restaurants a while back.

I hate to say it but a member here has a pretty good point. Some of the protesters broke windows to illegally enter instead of going through the door. However for the most part they did little damage.

Congress reconvened later in the day. Very interesting.

This is quite different compared to many of the protests we see where maximum property damage seems to have been an objective.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby Keefie on Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:16 am

2dimes wrote:While president Trump has a rather large part in this. Do we not need to blame those that called to chase people out of restaurants a while back.

I hate to say it but a member here has a pretty good point. Some of the protesters broke windows to illegally enter instead of going through the door. However for the most part they did little damage.

Congress reconvened later in the day. Very interesting.

This is quite different compared to many of the protests we see where maximum property damage seems to have been an objective.


Yes this is different. It was an attack on democracy itself.

The silent majority needs to condem these extremist right wing facists/nazis for what they did.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:34 am

Fair enough, I'm not supporting it or the President's part in inciting them.

Also, this might be a warning shot preceding a total takeover.

Make a note: I absolutely oppose breaking windows and entering illegally.

I can't ignore the fact that other "protests" with much smaller crowds have resulted in more damage.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby jimboston on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:12 am

2dimes wrote:While president Trump has a rather large part in this. Do we not need to blame those that called to chase people out of restaurants a while back.

I hate to say it but a member here has a pretty good point. Some of the protesters broke windows to illegally enter instead of going through the door. However for the most part they did little damage.

Congress reconvened later in the day. Very interesting.

This is quite different compared to many of the protests we see where maximum property damage seems to have been an objective.


Yesterday’s protests were completely different.

I don’t support the violence we saw at BLM protests... but the REASON for the protests matter. BLM protestors are protesting years of discrimination, bias, and ultimately wrongful death (in many cases) at the hands of Law Enforcement. The violence at these protests was mostly spontaneous and grass roots. There is not a clear ‘sole’ ‘leader’.

Many MAGA supporters believe they are protesting an unfair ‘stolen’ election. In reality they have clearly been incited by one ‘leader’. Trump. Since his election loss he has knowingly spread lie upon lie upon lie. We have had many leaders lie and break norms and take other bad actions. What Trump has done is on another level... it’s been a consistent repeated patter that we have NEVER SEEN. Not only did he spur on these protestors and encourage them to show up yesterday... but he incited the riot that attacked the Capital. He, Trump, has crossed a line and there needs to be repercussions.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby jimboston on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 am

2dimes wrote:Also, this might be a warning shot preceding a total takeover.


So this is step one of Q-Anon plan?


2dimes wrote:
I can't ignore the fact that other "protests" with much smaller crowds have resulted in more damage.


More property damage? Maybe.

More damage to foundational pillars of our Republic? Not even close.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby HitRed on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:16 am

4 years of Russians Russians Russians then impeachment. No incited drumbeat there.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby jimboston on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:32 am

HitRed wrote:4 years of Russians Russians Russians then impeachment. No incited drumbeat there.


:roll:

You are comparing the impeachment of Trump to the riot?

LOL
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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:33 am

jimboston wrote:
2dimes wrote:Also, this might be a warning shot preceding a total takeover.


So this is step one of Q-Anon plan?


I don't know what that is.

Saxi wrote they have 18 months to plan for day X.

I don't know about that either, but it sounds like something is going on.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby jimboston on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:35 am

2dimes wrote:
jimboston wrote:
2dimes wrote:Also, this might be a warning shot preceding a total takeover.


So this is step one of Q-Anon plan?


I don't know what that is.

Saxi wrote they have 18 months to plan for day X.

I don't know about that either, but it sounds like something is going on.


... you’re talking like a Conspiracy Theorist and Q-Anon supporter even if you aren’t aware that’s what you sound like.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:00 am

Let me ramp it up a bit.

If Saxi* tricks you into ruining your neighborhood who then has to live in a bad neighborhood?









*discriptive word for whatever anonymous dick was riling up you and the BLM protestors including those behind the movement.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby jimboston on Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:12 am

2dimes wrote:Let me ramp it up a bit.

If Saxi* tricks you into ruining your neighborhood who then has to live in a bad neighborhood?









*discriptive word for whatever anonymous dick was riling up you and the BLM protestors including those behind the movement.


Your logic makes no sense.

I personally never rioted.

I don’t support BLM rioters.

I agree, often inner city riots harm the neighborhoods of the very people rioting... it makes no sense.

That all said... what happened yesterday WAS NOTHING LIKE the BLM riots.

The riot was primarily an attack on the Foundational Principals of Our Republic.
There was property damage and injuries and one death... but it wasn’t ABOUT that.
It was an attack on the Idea of our Republic.

Also, people were NOT rioting in their own neighborhoods... they were rioting in the Capital.

I’ve pointed out other differences.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:23 am

You seem like someone blaming the president and red hats for the problems with your republic.

Almost as dumb but not nearly as funny as "Thanks Obama."

Maybe we just can't see each other without our filters.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:23 am

HitRed wrote:4 years of Russians Russians Russians then impeachment. No incited drumbeat there.


I don't think any sane person has any doubt that Trump did collude with the Russians. Even the Republican-controlled Senate agreed that fake social media accounts run by Russian intelligence were a major factor in the 2016 election. Yes, most of Trump's henchmen stayed loyal and didn't break under pressure to testify, but you can't seriously think the Russians did this out of the kindness of their hearts.

The impeachment was overdue and more than justified. From the beginning, Trumps term was nothing but pure criminality. Misusing the power of his office to try to subvert an ally to dig up dirt on someone for his own selfish political purposes definitely is a high crime. The fact that by then he had subverted most of the Republicans in the senate to toe the line is unfortunate, but it doesn't change the facts. No sane person could argue that it's right to use the power of your office to dig up dirt on others.

The biggest subversion has been the weakening of congressional oversight. Whenever some Trump flunky was too unqualified to pass Senate confirmation, Trump simply made them a "temporary" appointment and avoided asking for Senate confirmation. More departments than ever before are being run by "temporary" heads. It completely violates the spirit of the Constitution. Senate confirmation is there as a check on irresponsible abuse of executive power. Temporary appointments are meant to be an emergency stopgap, not a permanent state of affairs.

Putting a recent law-school grad who has never tried a case on a Circuit Court (and later bumping her up to a Supreme) simply because of her extremist political views, is just so irresponsible that one's mind recoils trying to absorb it.

Trump's crimes are many and varied. He gutted environmental regulations, with the result that already now toxic filth from refining plants is being dumped on what used to be federally-protected lands. A lot of the contracts are long-term and will be grandfathered in even after regulations are restored, so it will take a generation to clean up the mess.

Similarly, it will take a generation to clean up the disaster caused by the scrapping of the Iran deal. The genius of the Iran deal was that it supported the rise of an Iranian middle class which opposed and curbed the religious extremists. With the scrapping of the deal and the restoration of horrendous sanctions, not only is their a vast increase in poverty among the lower classes in Iran, but more importantly the middle class has been virtually wiped out. The extremists are now back in power, and war has never been more likely. Millions will quite likely die as a result.

In his first three years, Trump increased the deficit more than Obama did in eight years. Where did the money go? Nobody can argue that Americans are healthier or wealthier than they were in 2016, so where did the money go? Most of it was in the form of tax breaks for the ultra-rich, which they promptly sent to their offshore accounts and which will never be spent in any way that even slightly benefits any average American.

One could write a book. In fact, many have. The dog-whistle politics encouraging racists to come out of hiding and organize, the constant lies and misinformation campaigns, the unprovoked attack on allies, the nepotistic hiring of his Ivanka and her squeeze, the attacks on the media, the petty insults and childishness, the petty grift, selling quack medicine during the pandemic. It's just a staggering list of malfeasance in office.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby Keefie on Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:30 am

It will be interesting to see what he does after the 20th. It seems to me that he's ruined all possibility of having a 'normal' life in the US.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:42 am

When did he have anything resembling "a 'normal' life"? This is a guy with a gold toilet.

I recall Penn describing him and saying "He eats chicken wings with a knife and fork."

I have seen a couple doing that in person at a bar. It's disturbing.

I just read the perfect witty discription of the protest.
Dave Ross wrote:This is like the French Revolution except they're storming the Bastille to demand the king stay and keep starving them.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:04 pm

2dimes wrote:Fair enough, I'm not supporting it or the President's part in inciting them.

Also, this might be a warning shot preceding a total takeover.

Make a note: I absolutely oppose breaking windows and entering illegally.

I can't ignore the fact that other "protests" with much smaller crowds have resulted in more damage.


You really... really miss the point and it's sad we even have to explain that you can't compare houses and carrots.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:13 pm

Yeah, ok.

Talking head says "riot" and "violence" video shows people walking, most of them behind a velvet rope.

Talking head says "protest" it means civilians having a gun fight or burning things like police cars

Go catch up on Gilligans Isle.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby betiko on Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:24 pm

2dimes wrote:Yeah, ok.

Talking head says "riot" and "violence" video shows people walking, most of them behind a velvet rope.

Talking head says "protest" it means civilians having a gun fight or burning things like police cars

Go catch up on Gilligans Isle.


You clearly are a lost cause, so I won't bother. You stopped going to school when you were 14 or something?
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Re: The United States of America

Postby jimboston on Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:17 pm

2dimes wrote:You seem like someone blaming the president and red hats for the problems with your republic.

Almost as dumb but not nearly as funny as "Thanks Obama."

Maybe we just can't see each other without our filters.


I believe there are and have been underlying problems in this country that predate and are deeper than Trump.
Latent Racism / Racial Bias and Injustice
Wealth Disparity
Lack of Opportunity
Costs of Health Care and Housing
Welfare State Mentality
Lack of Spirit / Willingness to Work
Too much Money in Politics
Some of these are contradictory and/or feed each other.

What Trump has done is increased the level of the rhetoric and fed the fire.
The fire was already burning... the more people that feed it hurts us.
We need leaders who are willing to work to get to the root of the problems.
Trump was/is only in it for himself.

Trump has also ignored longstanding Norms of our political system.
These norms have been degrading, but Trump just demolished them.
These actions have been more damaging than his rhetoric.

I don’t blame Trump for everything... but I do believe he’s culpable in large part to the current situation.
I’m not ignorant of the fact that the people and culture had to be ready/ripe/primed for a demagogue like Trump.
It’s just sad that so much of our leadership was willing to go along with him.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:24 pm

You're playing loose with the word "leadership" there. Otherwise I'm with you..
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Re: The United States of America

Postby jimboston on Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:13 pm

2dimes wrote:You're playing loose with the word "leadership" there. Otherwise I'm with you..


Not really... I’m using the word to define the position of political authority that Congressional Reps and Senators have. I am not using it to describe the. actions and stands they are SUPPOSED to make.
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Re: The United States of America

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:32 pm

Capitiane Verte wrote:So Wednesday's mobbing of the Capitol could be just the crest of a wave of political fury that will long outlast Trump's term.


Oh, bet on it.



jimboston wrote:
I don’t support the violence we saw at BLM protests... but the REASON for the protests matter. BLM protestors are protesting years of discrimination, bias, and ultimately wrongful death (in many cases) at the hands of Law Enforcement.


That's why we'll win. Because even when our side is breaking through the door and your leaders are huddled, sobbing, whimpering on the floor, you're still denouncing the police, calling them racist thugs and calling for them to be abolished. You can't protect yourselves from us and you've alienated the only ones who can, to the point that it now seems the Capitol Police actually coordinated to let the protesters in yesterday. You came to a gunfight armed with a Gardenburger. You're declawed, neutered, and ball gagged and somehow think your elderly old president will manage to cling to the White House for a full four years. I've never been more confident of our imminent return to power, by hook or by crook.

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It will be interesting to see what he does after the 20th. It seems to me that he's ruined all possibility of having a 'normal' life in the US.


He's a billionaire who received either the 1st or 2nd (depending on whom you ask) most votes of any candidate in 244 years of American history ... hundreds of millions adore him. He'll be just fine.
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