Israel

[bigtoughralf]

The Irish First Minister and leaders of all other major Irish parties have used today's Dail to criticise the Israeli bandit administration for its crimes against Palestinian civilians:

https://www.thejournal.ie/israel-irelan ... 7-Oct2023/

[mookiemcgee]

Israel doesn't want peace, it wants it's land back.

lmao, what land?

way to rise above the fray and understand the larger point being made

[HitRed]

Heard

I am Truth. - God

[mookiemcgee]

Heard

I am Truth. - God

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Matthew 6:5

[jusplay4fun]

Ralph finally gets some attention for his Palestinians, his favorite topic. This is after they kill babies, rape women, and behead Israeli soldiers (after they are dead). We learn of the brutality and savagery of the Hamas killers. Those are the folks Ralph supports. Well done Ralph . THAT is the way to win support and earn friends.

[bigtoughralf]

Israel doesn't want peace, it wants it's land back.

lmao, what land?

way to rise above the fray and understand the larger point being made

Just pointing out that you seemed to consider 'Israel occupying the West Bank' and 'Palestine wanting control of the West Bank' to be somehow equivalent.

[jusplay4fun]

And smallsoftralph ignores the brutal and savage killings and other atrocities by Hamas that I posted.

Good job, Ralph.

[jusplay4fun]

Heard

I am Truth. - God

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Matthew 6:5

To try to be fair, I am not sure that what HitRed does here rises to that level. If one is (or believes that one is) full of the Spirit, it has to be shared and pronounced.

And others are full of crap and that too comes out; unfortunately, that crap stinks up the joint. We can name several such persons, I am sure. Present company, excluded, of course.

[mookiemcgee]

Israel doesn't want peace, it wants it's land back.

lmao, what land?

way to rise above the fray and understand the larger point being made

Just pointing out that you seemed to consider 'Israel occupying the West Bank' and 'Palestine wanting control of the West Bank' to be somehow equivalent.

I get it, you've picked a side. I'm not picking a side, and I'm making no moral equivalency. It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

[saxitoxin]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

Correct. Because the fight is only like 80 years old so suggesting it's a thousands year old fight and is too muddled to figure out denies the undeniable reality of Palestinian claims.

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

It's like the dispute between the U.S. and Canada over who controls Machias Island, if the U.S. relinquished its claim and - before Canada could move in - a bunch of Viking longships just showed up out of the blue and claimed it. Except they're not real Vikings, it's the cast of a local community theater production of The Pirates of Penzance who raided the costume closet and then got ahold of a bunch of M16s and hand grenades and who then shoot anyone who tries to point out they're actors and not actually Vikings.

[jimboston]

Israel doesn't want peace, it wants it's land back.

lmao, what land?

way to rise above the fray and understand the larger point being made

Just pointing out that you seemed to consider 'Israel occupying the West Bank' and 'Palestine wanting control of the West Bank' to be somehow equivalent.

Gammas has been in control of the West Bank for what…15 years.

Their stated goal has been and continues to be whipping Israel off the face of Earth.

Israel has not Occupied the West Bank… they occupy Israel. Now you can argue with the creating of Israel and say they should “give it back”… just like some people think we should just cede the USA to Native Americans.

It ain’t happening.

The people of Palestine have believe their leaders could deliver the expulsion of Jews from the Middle East. The people of the West Bank voted Hammas into power and supported their terrorist activities for years.

Meanwhile, Israel paid for their water and electricity.

Poke a sleeping bear and see what happens.

This is not going to be pretty and many people who didn’t actively support Hammas will die.
This is sad.

That said, many who appear to be civilians likely did support Hammas.
They carry some blame too.

[ConfederateSS]

--------One of the icier inconsistencies of the Heart...
---------But among the one great common effort of MANKIND..."WAR"...
---------With so many locked in the mutual effort of creating death...Still one man can walk alone and friendless...How is it that such a man , so totally and responsible to his time, can still find no door open...No hand, that is not turned against him...
---------A bitter harvest, from such hopeful seeds...
---------Yet the very damned themselves, cling to this last hope...
---------That someday, in some place, at some particular time...
---------A face will turn to them...That under The Sun a voice will speak, and call them back to life...Well, that moment even the damned are waiting...
---------And we will all be apart of The Earth...We gave our lives for...Each in his own way...In his own time...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[Pack Rat]

Israel doesn't want peace, it wants it's land back.

lmao, what land?

way to rise above the fray and understand the larger point being made

Just pointing out that you seemed to consider 'Israel occupying the West Bank' and 'Palestine wanting control of the West Bank' to be somehow equivalent.

Gammas has been in control of the West Bank for what…15 years.

Their stated goal has been and continues to be whipping Israel off the face of Earth.

Israel has not Occupied the West Bank… they occupy Israel. Now you can argue with the creating of Israel and say they should “give it back”… just like some people think we should just cede the USA to Native Americans.

It ain’t happening.

The people of Palestine have believe their leaders could deliver the expulsion of Jews from the Middle East. The people of the West Bank voted Hammas into power and supported their terrorist activities for years.

Meanwhile, Israel paid for their water and electricity.

Poke a sleeping bear and see what happens.

This is not going to be pretty and many people who didn’t actively support Hammas will die.
This is sad.

That said, many who appear to be civilians likely did support Hammas.
They carry some blame too.

West Bank is controlled by the Palestinian Authority, not Hamas. The Palestinian Authority has officially controlled the West Bank since the Oslo Accords. Granted Israel has continued to steal more land, pump out ground water at the detriment of Palestinian farmers and walling in the West Bank residents. The IDF does occasionally send their troops in to beat up and sometimes shoot the place up from time to time.

Hamas has really fucked things up for the Palestinians in Gaza! I don't see a future for Hamas. They have proved beyond doubt that they are terrorists and should be liquidated.

With that said, Gaza is one large Concentration Camp that breeds terrorism and Israel can share the blame in turning Gaza into a real shithole.

[saxitoxin]

Gammas has been in control of the West Bank for what…15 years.

Hamas has never been in control of the West Bank.

Israel has not Occupied the West Bank… they occupy Israel.

Here's a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. These are created when Israel periodically sends an Army convoy screaming across the border - in violation of international law - and builds a town on the territory of the West Bank over the objections of the Palestinian government. Access to these towns are prohibited to anyone except Israeli citizens of Jewish ancestry and Palestinian Police are suddenly prohibited from entering this area of their own territory. Israeli Army troops and the Israeli Border Police then establish a fence line with armed guards around these cantonments. So sure, Israel "has not occupied the West Bank."

The people of the West Bank voted Hammas into power and supported their terrorist activities for years.

Fatah, not Hamas, received a majority of the vote of West Bank residents in the last Palestinian Legislative Council elections.

Hamas was created by Israel to undermine the influence of Fatah. Israel wanted a more militant Palestinian group to undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause and to divide the Palestinian resistance in the hope they'd begin fighting amongst themselves. Israel got what it paid for.

Meanwhile, Israel paid for their water and electricity.

Also wrong. Electricity and water in the Gaza Strip is paid for by the Palestinian residents and businesses who use it, just like in the U.S. They buy it from Israel at inflated prices and the profits go into the Israeli treasury. Israel has imposed a complete military blockade of all Gaza borders meaning Gaza has no choice but to buy it from anyone but Israel and Israel is able to maintain a total monopoly on selling electricity. Gaza can't import the equipment to build new transmission lines into Egypt and they can't import fuel from Turkish refineries via sea since the ships would be sunk by the Israeli Navy.

[jusplay4fun]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

Based on a cursory read, I disagree with saxi, again.

The analysis revealed two distinct subgroups within the remains: one with greater Middle Eastern ancestry, which may represent Jews with origins in Western Germany, and another with greater Eastern and Central European ancestry. The modern Ashkenazi population formed as a mix of these groups and absorbed little to no outside genetic influences over the 600 years that followed, the authors said.

Some disease-causing mutations that are widespread in modern Ashkenazi Jews are suspected to have been introduced by members of the founding group long ago. The team found some of these mutations in Erfurt as well, indicating that the medieval Ashkenazi population indeed originated from an extremely small set of founders.

Further evidence came from mitochondrial DNA, which is part of the genome transmitted only from mothers. Analyses showed that one third of the Erfurt individuals descended in their maternal line from a single ancestral woman, again highlighting how small the founding population must have been, the authors said.

Despite the insights it provides, the study was limited to one cemetery and one time period. The researchers hope it will pave the way for future analyses of samples from other sites, including those from antiquity, to continue unraveling the complexities of Jewish history.

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/ancient-dna-provides-new-insights-ashkenazi-jewish-history#:~:text=About%20half%20of%20Jewish%20people,the%20Rhineland%20in%20western%20Germany.

[Lonous]

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/ancient-dna-provides-new-insights-ashkenazi-jewish-history#:~:text=About%20half%20of%20Jewish%20people,the%20Rhineland%20in%20western%20Germany.

That study is awful. I don't blame you for the bad results, I lay the blame on Harvard for publishing a mere fragment and declaring the results as significant.

Sample size for study: 1 cemetary
"Omg, they can all be traced back to a single mother!"
No shit, that's what happens when you examine most family cemeteries.

[saxitoxin]

Refresher:

Palestine: A historic area that consists of three contemporary areas: the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and Israel.

State of Palestine: Recognized as a sovereign nation-state with defined borders by 139 UN member states. Not recognized by Israel, Japan, western Europe, or the USA. Consists of two non-contiguous land areas: the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Gaza: One half of the State of Palestine. Under the 18th year of an illegal Israeli military blockade.

West Bank: One half of the State of Palestine. Israeli military forces regularly enter the area with impunity and establish settlements on its territory.

Palestinian Authority: Government of the State of Palestine.

Zionism: A radical ideology that combines elements of socialism and ethnonationalism and arose in 1800s Austria, created by a failed engineer, and which states that Jews are a master race of humanity. Believes it is the mystical destiny of all Jews from across the world to move to the Middle East and assume total control of Palestine in a Jewish-dominated state. Declared a form of racism by the United Nations in 1975. Is the ideology of all major political parties in Israel.

Fatah: Palestinian political party that claims to control the Palestinian Authority but only exercises control over the West Bank. Armed wing is the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. Fatah is a socialist party with Muslim, Christian, and (a few) Jewish members. Was founded in the 1950s. Is committed to the defeat of the Zionist ideology.

Hamas: Palestinian political party that claims to control the Palestinian Authority but only exercises control over Gaza. Armed wing is the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. Hamas is an Islamist party with membership limited to Muslims. Was created by Israel in the 1980s to undermine Fatah. Is committed to the defeat of the Zionist ideology.

The Catastrophe: In 1948, with a large number of Zionists now having moved to Palestine from Europe, Zionists -- using weapons supplied by pre-socialist Czechoslovakia -- declared the existence of the prophesied "State of Israel" and attacked mostly unarmed Palestinian families, driving them at gunpoint into refuge camps in Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan, seizing their land, and moving into their houses. Flamethrowers were used to drive out any Palestinian who refused to leave voluntarily.

Supersessionism: The nearly 2,000-year held belief by most Christians that the Church of Jesus Christ has superseded the nation of Israel mentioned in the Bible and the universal church is now the nation of Israel. Beginning in the 1960s, Israeli intelligence (Mossad) and propaganda (Hasbara) forces began infiltrating American Evangelical Protestant churches and encouraging a new theology created by Zionists that discarded supersessionism and said the State of Israel was the literal nation of Israel mentioned in the Bible and if they didn't support this new 1960s idea of Israel with guns and money they'd all go to hell. Evangelical Protestant Zionists are unwitting Satanic auxiliaries (as distinct from Satan worshippers who know what they're doing) as they have rejected the Word of God and embraced a deformed version of it conceived of by a PR agency in Tel Aviv.

Ben Feldman: An actor best known for his recurring roles in Silicon Valley and Mad Men. Did not have a Bar Mitzvah as he considers it a "lavish party just to show off how much money you have." Has great hair.

[Doc_Brown]

Supersessionism: The nearly 2,000-year held belief by most Christians that the Church of Jesus Christ has superseded the nation of Israel mentioned in the Bible and the universal church is now the nation of Israel. Beginning in the 1960s, Israeli intelligence (Mossad) and propaganda (Hasbara) forces began infiltrating American Evangelical Protestant churches and encouraging a new theology created by Zionists that discarded supersessionism and said the State of Israel was the literal nation of Israel mentioned in the Bible and if they didn't support this new 1960s idea of Israel with guns and money they'd all go to hell. Evangelical Protestant Zionists are unwitting Satanic auxiliaries (as distinct from Satan worshippers who know what they're doing) as they have rejected the Word of God and embraced a deformed version of it conceived of by a PR agency in Tel Aviv.

While your definition of supersessionism is accurate enough, most Christians, including theologians, don't actually use that term and would add some major nuance to how it is stated here.
However, the second part is incorrect. The theological position that all of God's promises are still explicitly for the Jewish people is a major tenant of Dispensationalism, which was developed in the mid 1800s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymoth Brethren. It was heavily promoted by Scofield and was incorporated into a lot of his notes in the Scofield Reference Bible, which was popular in the US in the early 1900s. Dispensationalism effectively viewed the so-called "Church age" as a separate dispensation in God's work, and at some point, His focus would return to His chosen people, the Jews. When the state of Israel was founded in 1948, Dispensationalists viewed that as a major fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Many of the Christian claims about the imminent Great Tribulation or End of the World were derived using the foundation of the Nation-State of Israel combined with the prophesy in Matthew 24 that "This generation will not pass away before all these things take place." Dispensational theologians interpreted "generation" as a prophetic generation lasting 40 years. Hence, there were multiple prophesies associating the Tribulation or the second coming of Christ with 1988. Once those prophecies failed, they decided that Israel properly claimed the land at the conclusion of the 1967, resulting in multiple prophecies associated with either 2007 or 2000 (accounting for a 7 year Great Tribulation).

Anyway, it is certainly true that many Evangelical Protestants in the US place a strong Biblical importance on the nation of Israel, but it is false to claim that this is the result of Mossad or Jewish propaganda starting in the 1960s. That theology was already developing 100 years earlier.

[saxitoxin]

Supersessionism: The nearly 2,000-year held belief by most Christians that the Church of Jesus Christ has superseded the nation of Israel mentioned in the Bible and the universal church is now the nation of Israel. Beginning in the 1960s, Israeli intelligence (Mossad) and propaganda (Hasbara) forces began infiltrating American Evangelical Protestant churches and encouraging a new theology created by Zionists that discarded supersessionism and said the State of Israel was the literal nation of Israel mentioned in the Bible and if they didn't support this new 1960s idea of Israel with guns and money they'd all go to hell. Evangelical Protestant Zionists are unwitting Satanic auxiliaries (as distinct from Satan worshippers who know what they're doing) as they have rejected the Word of God and embraced a deformed version of it conceived of by a PR agency in Tel Aviv.

While your definition of supersessionism is accurate enough, most Christians, including theologians, don't actually use that term and would add some major nuance to how it is stated here.
However, the second part is incorrect. The theological position that all of God's promises are still explicitly for the Jewish people is a major tenant of Dispensationalism, which was developed in the mid 1800s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymoth Brethren. It was heavily promoted by Scofield and was incorporated into a lot of his notes in the Scofield Reference Bible, which was popular in the US in the early 1900s. Dispensationalism effectively viewed the so-called "Church age" as a separate dispensation in God's work, and at some point, His focus would return to His chosen people, the Jews. When the state of Israel was founded in 1948, Dispensationalists viewed that as a major fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Many of the Christian claims about the imminent Great Tribulation or End of the World were derived using the foundation of the Nation-State of Israel combined with the prophesy in Matthew 24 that "This generation will not pass away before all these things take place." Dispensational theologians interpreted "generation" as a prophetic generation lasting 40 years. Hence, there were multiple prophesies associating the Tribulation or the second coming of Christ with 1988. Once those prophecies failed, they decided that Israel properly claimed the land at the conclusion of the 1967, resulting in multiple prophecies associated with either 2007 or 2000 (accounting for a 7 year Great Tribulation).

Anyway, it is certainly true that many Evangelical Protestants in the US place a strong Biblical importance on the nation of Israel, but it is false to claim that this is the result of Mossad or Jewish propaganda starting in the 1960s. That theology was already developing 100 years earlier.

I don't dispute it existed prior to Zionist actions, but the Zionists took it, nurtured it, and planted it in the minds of American Protestants who had never centered their beliefs on it before. Even today, Israel provides direct support to different Protestant groups in the U.S. evangelizing Christian Zionism.

[saxitoxin]

Ron De Santis has announced he's ordered the Florida National Guard to airlift Floridians out of Israel due to the failure of Biden to provide for the evacuation of Americans.

[Votanic]

Ron De Santis has announced he's ordered the Florida National Guard to airlift Floridians out of Israel due to the failure of Biden to provide for the evacuation of Americans.

Ohh, that's so nice of him. BTW, is he still running for President?

[mookiemcgee]

It boils down to a thousands year old fight over who controls land. I can't even say that out loud without being told accused of being anti-palestinian?

Correct. Because the fight is only like 80 years old so suggesting it's a thousands year old fight and is too muddled to figure out denies the undeniable reality of Palestinian claims.

The last Jewish state prior to Israel was in 60 B.C. In the intervening 2,000 years the area was under alternating European and Arab control. Just as Europe relinquished its claims, Zionism decided to reassert their dormant, 2,000 year old claim that they'd previously made no attempt to enforce and then start importing millions of people who had never lived there and were not related or descended to anyone who had ever lived there (the Ashkenazi are descended from European converts to Judaism).

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

[Votanic]

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

We all came out of Africa, now we're all going back. Invest now in luxury condos overlooking the scenic Olduvai Gorge.

[mookiemcgee]

Got it, so making a claim on land and importing millions of people to live there is wrong and should never be allowed. Israel should be disbanded and land given back to Palestinians... when does America start shipping 200+ million people back to Europe?

We all came out of Africa, now we're all going back. Invest now in luxury condos overlooking the scenic Olduvai Gorge.

I think you just solved the middle east crisis, and the Ukraine/Russia conflict in two sentences.

[bigtoughralf]

I get it, you've picked a side. I'm not picking a side

*waits for the applause to stop*

I'm making no moral equivalency.

You said the Israeli and Palestinian governments were doing the same thing, so yes you were making a moral equivalence.

I'm not sure why you think saying 'Israel is occupying Palestinian land' is taking a side. Would I be taking sides if I said 'Ted Bundy murdered women'?