A real, non-trolling question for christians

[MeDeFe]

Well, Gregrios, the bible says that those things are sins.

[Snorri1234]

So wait, there are all these OT laws and such, but since Jesus came and we have the NT, we don't really have to follow the OT laws since he came and made new ones?

If that's true, then why do conservative Christian pundits keep referring to Leviticus when talking about homosexuality? Why do they refer to any OT teaching or law when the only reason it is in the Bible in the first place is to provide context for the NT?

DO NOT USE YOUR VILE "LOGIC" ON ME, HEATHEN!

[red bull]

Apols for another religion thread but I have a question and this forum is the only place where i rub shoulders with christians of a more fundamental bent.

I am not trolling although I might argue with you a bit.

Anyway - drunken conversation last night and the following came up:

If the bible is god's inerrant word, why is it OK for christians to wear two different kinds of cloth, cut their hair at the temples (all the laws in the pentateuch, basically) when the bible explicitly says these are forbidden? Why is it OK to disregard those bits of the bible?

None of those things are considered sinning. Do you really think that God would condemn someone for cutting their hair? I'm just going with logic here because he's a caring and just God. If someone cut their hair or wore more than 2 pieces of clothes, than big deal. The only consequences would probably be that that person would deny themselves of heavenly luxaries. The main thing that God expects from us is not to sin. Sin is simply not doing the right thing when you know the difference between right and wrong. There's a misconception out there that sinning is breaking the 10 commandments. It is true, but that's not all of it. Not to sin is to obey the 10 commandments and do the right thing when you know what is right. These are exactly the same thing.

wait a minute .... where does it say its a sin to cut your hair ?
if your referring to Samson it was not a sin for him to cut his hair .... it was a way for him to witness to all that he followed God in every way ... and with the strong of faith he was giving the gift of unnatural powers {being strong }


no where do i remember it being a law that you must not cut your hair ... NOW .. it is a custom {and still today } that Jews of different denominations will not cut there hair or others must not let there hair get longer then a certain length.

[Backglass]

The rules are a little....... flexible.

Including the ark, the red sea, rising zombies and instant liquor?

[sheepofdumb]

The rules are a little....... flexible.

Including the ark, the red sea, rising zombies and instant liquor?

Well I do have to say. A supernatural being (God) created the natural. So I think you would have to agree that He has the right to do whatever He wants.

[PLAYER57832]

In reference to homosexuality, a good many churches today disagree . As for the others -- God gave us the book and he gave us minds ... the rest is up to us.

[sheepofdumb]

I have a question to add; If jesus is god and god is god, who is the real god? Is it god or jesus?

all the same person as such, holy trinity, god jesus holy spirit. all the same "being" but work in diferent ways, god as god, jesus as human form died for our sins etc and holy spirit lives within us always

Bullshit. Why did was God pleased with Jesus or why did Jesus refer to God as the father? Is God schizophrenic? If so, then which 'personality' is the true God?

One of the things that blows peoples minds is trying to put God in context with what He has created. It is impossible to be three separate people in one person but be the same as the other two parts of yourself. Try thinking about how God is three people in one. Think long and hard. I bet you can't even fathom how it is possible. That is one of the many qualities of God that man can't comprehend. We also can't comprehend his justice. If you really try and figure out who will go to heaven and who will go to hell you will end up with some insight to how God thinks and a huge headache. Man should attempt to understand God but he must realize that God is so unfathomable that there are some places where you need to live with the absolute basics. God is three in one and you just have to accept that.

Now for Jesus calling God 'Father' and all that. Jesus is showing God respect because physically he is human. The rest I have not looked into so I will not say anything about that.

Please just I am just a high school student and I do not have the authority or knowledge a pastor or other church official would have. I'm doing the best I can with a subject that people are inclined to disbelieve.

[muy_thaiguy]

So wait, there are all these OT laws and such, but since Jesus came and we have the NT, we don't really have to follow the OT laws since he came and made new ones?

If that's true, then why do conservative Christian pundits keep referring to Leviticus when talking about homosexuality? Why do they refer to any OT teaching or law when the only reason it is in the Bible in the first place is to provide context for the NT?

Well, Jesus renounced some of the OT laws, not all of them though.

[sheepofdumb]

So wait, there are all these OT laws and such, but since Jesus came and we have the NT, we don't really have to follow the OT laws since he came and made new ones?

If that's true, then why do conservative Christian pundits keep referring to Leviticus when talking about homosexuality? Why do they refer to any OT teaching or law when the only reason it is in the Bible in the first place is to provide context for the NT?

Well, Jesus renounced some of the OT laws, not all of them though.

He renounced some of the OT laws that were concerning him. For laws like the ten commandments he told his followers to still abide by them. The OT is still very important to christians and should not be viewed as a bunch of stories setting up the scene for Jesus.

[Backglass]

The rules are a little....... flexible.

Including the ark, the red sea, rising zombies and instant liquor?

Well I do have to say. A supernatural being (God) created the natural. So I think you would have to agree that He has the right to do whatever He wants.

Only if you believe the fairy tales.

Waiter! More Kool-Aid for my friend!

[Gregrios]

Apols for another religion thread but I have a question and this forum is the only place where i rub shoulders with christians of a more fundamental bent.

I am not trolling although I might argue with you a bit.

Anyway - drunken conversation last night and the following came up:

If the bible is god's inerrant word, why is it OK for christians to wear two different kinds of cloth, cut their hair at the temples (all the laws in the pentateuch, basically) when the bible explicitly says these are forbidden? Why is it OK to disregard those bits of the bible?

None of those things are considered sinning. Do you really think that God would condemn someone for cutting their hair? I'm just going with logic here because he's a caring and just God. If someone cut their hair or wore more than 2 pieces of clothes, than big deal. The only consequences would probably be that that person would deny themselves of heavenly luxaries. The main thing that God expects from us is not to sin. Sin is simply not doing the right thing when you know the difference between right and wrong. There's a misconception out there that sinning is breaking the 10 commandments. It is true, but that's not all of it. Not to sin is to obey the 10 commandments and do the right thing when you know what is right. These are exactly the same thing.

wait a minute .... where does it say its a sin to cut your hair ?
if your referring to Samson it was not a sin for him to cut his hair .... it was a way for him to witness to all that he followed God in every way ... and with the strong of faith he was giving the gift of unnatural powers {being strong }


no where do i remember it being a law that you must not cut your hair ... NOW .. it is a custom {and still today } that Jews of different denominations will not cut there hair or others must not let there hair get longer then a certain length.

Read it again. I didn't say it was a sin to cut your hair. That was the reply that MeDeFe wrote, not me! Don't put words into my mouth. Thank you very much.

[joecoolfrog]

My view is that the Holy Roman Church needed to distance itself from Judaism and its answer was to make sure there were fundamental differences between the old and new religions. Consequently when it cobbled together the NT it made sure that it used only those gospels that fitted its agenda, simple PR !

[heavycola]

Apols for another religion thread but I have a question and this forum is the only place where i rub shoulders with christians of a more fundamental bent.

I am not trolling although I might argue with you a bit.

Anyway - drunken conversation last night and the following came up:

If the bible is god's inerrant word, why is it OK for christians to wear two different kinds of cloth, cut their hair at the temples (all the laws in the pentateuch, basically) when the bible explicitly says these are forbidden? Why is it OK to disregard those bits of the bible?

None of those things are considered sinning. Do you really think that God would condemn someone for cutting their hair? I'm just going with logic here because he's a caring and just God. If someone cut their hair or wore more than 2 pieces of clothes, than big deal. The only consequences would probably be that that person would deny themselves of heavenly luxaries. The main thing that God expects from us is not to sin. Sin is simply not doing the right thing when you know the difference between right and wrong. There's a misconception out there that sinning is breaking the 10 commandments. It is true, but that's not all of it. Not to sin is to obey the 10 commandments and do the right thing when you know what is right. These are exactly the same thing.

wait a minute .... where does it say its a sin to cut your hair ?
if your referring to Samson it was not a sin for him to cut his hair .... it was a way for him to witness to all that he followed God in every way ... and with the strong of faith he was giving the gift of unnatural powers {being strong }


no where do i remember it being a law that you must not cut your hair ... NOW .. it is a custom {and still today } that Jews of different denominations will not cut there hair or others must not let there hair get longer then a certain length.

Read it again. I didn't say it was a sin to cut your hair.

Leviticus 19:24

Also - leviticus 19:19 -

'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.'

[PLAYER57832]

old testament gear id assume. simple short answer is jesus's new covenant with us requires not to do all that stuff now. ie sacrificing lambs etc. i think that answers your question im open for discussion

Does it specificaly say in the New Testament that these laws are no longer applicable ?

um, dnt think so, let me get bak to you on that.

but it is doubtful, the majority of traditions were thrown out to say after the acts 2 church movement. ie the christian church today

but like i said thats the simple answer, im sure i could write a whole paper on it and im sure i will have to at one stage during my studies. il email my lecturer see what she says if u want a specific answer.
but yer short answer is that most traditions, inc those were phased out. obviously that comes with society changes too.

The answer to your question is "yes", but you also brought up something incorrect. Sacrafice is to be done only in the Temple. Since the Temple was destroyed shortly after the time of Jesus, no sacrafices are done. When/if the temple is rebuilt, sacrafice will resume.

... as for what the new testament says, Christ says a couple of things outright and more in parable. For example, when questioned whether healing on the Sabbath was committing work, he replied "who among you would not take a lamb from a well". In other words, you must look at the greater good. Is is more harmful to work or to let the lamb drown?
Chrisitians and Jews each may disagree on what is more important on some issues, but we agree on that fundamental concept.

In some cases, Christ did specifically declare laws more or less invalid. When he was admonished, for example, for eating with folks considered "unclean" or eating "unclean" food, he declared that it is the things inside us, not outside us that are really unclean.

Many of the things to which you speak, such as hair-cutting and such, were not really biblical laws, though they were sometimes customs and in some cases became part of the greater judaic law. In some cases, some Christians follow these as well.

Finally, Jesus specifically stated that he came to fulfill the law, not replace it, but he also said that to the commandments he added one other -- to love God and our neighbors. He told us that if we follow that one rule, we follow the rest ... and, by implication & example if there is an instance where the two seem in conflict, then follow the rule of love.
This is why it is OK, for example, to kill in defense.. and usually not considered a sin to steal food if you are really and truly hungry and have no other option.

[MeDeFe]

So, although these laws are part of the bible, they are not truly biblical laws, correct?

[PLAYER57832]

NO, with a few exceptions, the law stands, but Christ did say that some things had been misconstrued or given too much importance. He told us that if we love our God and our neighbor, then we WILL naturally be following the REAL law.

Some people will argue that we have outright abandoned too much, but also, remember that just because some people say "its in the Bible" doesn't make it so! OR, it might be in there, but have a very differant meaning when read in context, as a part of the whole.

[MR. Nate]

So wait, there are all these OT laws and such, but since Jesus came and we have the NT, we don't really have to follow the OT laws since he came and made new ones?

If that's true, then why do conservative Christian pundits keep referring to Leviticus when talking about homosexuality? Why do they refer to any OT teaching or law when the only reason it is in the Bible in the first place is to provide context for the NT?

Well, Jesus renounced some of the OT laws, not all of them though.

He renounced some of the OT laws that were concerning him. For laws like the ten commandments he told his followers to still abide by them. The OT is still very important to christians and should not be viewed as a bunch of stories setting up the scene for Jesus.

I'm gonna weigh in on this, even though I've got other things to do.
Jesus never renounced the Old Testament. In fact, he said that no part of the law would pass away unfulfilled.

It's important to remember that the Bible as a whole is not in it's original context. It was written at a specific time and place for a specific audience. In the case of the OT, we are not that audience. The Law was written specifically for the nation of Israel to practice as they were God's people.

Romans 6 & 7 talks pretty extensively about the purpose of the law. The law was a teach to show us just how far from God we are. It demonstrates the standards which would allow us to be completly faultless before God. Unfortunately, we can't follow them at all, so we must appeal to the Grace of God.

You refer to God as changing his standards, but that isn't accurate. Think of how you teach a child. With very young children, it's absolutes for every instance. "No, you may not touch that crystal bowl. "No you may not use the remote as a drum." As they get older, the same rules become conditional: "If you break that crystal bowl, you have to pay for it." "If the remote breaks, you're going to have to change the channel for everyone." Eventually, they grow into adults and become aware that their actions have consequences and they have to think through situations based on some broad principles.

Think of the OT as the specific rules for specific situations to people who didn't understand God. Now, we've got the benefit of those rules to help us understand the broad principles God wants followed. The specific rules for the specific situations don't necessarily apply to us in our situation, but the charachter of God can become more clear to us through the study of those rules.

[comic boy]

Mr Nate
You make a good point, it is absurd when fundamentalists quote an obscure passage written 3000 years ago and insist it is still relevent today.

[MR. Nate]

I think a lot of it is relevant today, like some of the specifics your mother taught you are relevant.
Don't talk with food in your mouth.
Look both ways before crossing the street.
Don't hit your brother.

Good things to follow, no matter the situation, because they are closely related to the general principles. - Be polite, Be safe, Be peaceful

In the OT, "obsolete" rules are still good things to practice:
"Remember the Sabbath day" - Make sure you commit time to God regularly
"Don't harvest the corners of your field" - Commit some of your income to helping the poor.
Don't trip a blind man.
Don't sell your daughter into prostitution. -

[comic boy]

I agree that much is still relevant , largely because its common sense,
one does not have to have any religion to acknowledge sound principles.
My take has always been that if Moses had simply announced the 10 commandments as sensible guidelines then he would have been laughed out of court, say they are a directive from God though.....

[Nephilim]

this thread degenerated into idiocy faster than usual.....

[khazalid]

old testament gear id assume. simple short answer is jesus's new covenant with us requires not to do all that stuff now. ie sacrificing lambs etc. i think that answers your question im open for discussion

Does it specificaly say in the New Testament that these laws are no longer applicable ?

yes, particularly regarding the consumption of cloven hoofed animals et al. i will dig out the reference later..

[PLAYER57832]

I, too agree with Mr Nate.

However, one thing to remember is that no one of us can possibly speak for the whole of Christianity.

There are 2 things only that unite Christians. We believe that Christ died for our sins and we believe that The Bible gives us direction and guidance for our lives (through a combination of history, parable, discourse, etc.).

The rest ALL the rest -- is disputed.

As for the supposed conflicts and disputes -- who can say what is the truth. ... And just as we here on earth, in this country have learned to live with many things previously thought impossible. so too is God's truth greater than all of us.

You can call that "gobbledly gook" or you can take it as the limits of human beings ability to explain, even that which we know to be true. This is why it is called "faith".