My Bible.........

[HapSmo19]

......is the constitution of the United States of America.

[Frigidus]

Eh, it was a start, but it's in dire need of an update.

[HapSmo19]

Eh, it was a start, but it's in dire need of an update.

I can't wait to hear just how.

[HapSmo19]

C'mon now. Lets go by article and section and rewrite through a logical debate. Any takers?

[Frigidus]

Eh, it was a start, but it's in dire need of an update.

I can't wait to hear just how.

Well, for one, the 2nd amendment needs to be rethought. When the founding fathers said "arms" they meant muskets, not semi-automatic weaponry. Should we allow weapons whose sole purpose is to kill other people in large numbers be put in the hands of the general public? Plus, the 4th amendment basically doesn't exist any more.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

As an example that doesn't involve the government outright spying on its populace, every time that a police officer asks you to get out of your car, this amendment should guarantee your right to not do so. It doesn't, if you don't get out you get arrested.

There's also a loophole in the 6th amendment now, as plenty of people have been held with little to no evidence against them for fairly lengthy times as "terrorists". More often than not they're just ordinary citizens.

The Bill of Rights aside, we need some constitutional amendments to protect our government from its own greed. I'm personally in favor of an amendment that mandates a balanced budget, as our trillions of dollars of debt are by and large the reason for our current economic recession and possible disaster.

[muy_thaiguy]

Eh, it was a start, but it's in dire need of an update.

I can't wait to hear just how.

Well, for one, the 2nd amendment needs to be rethought. When the founding fathers said "arms" they meant muskets, not semi-automatic weaponry. Should we allow weapons whose sole purpose is to kill other people in large numbers be put in the hands of the general public? Plus, the 4th amendment basically doesn't exist any more.

If I'm not mistaken, canons and a long line of muskets, as well as sharpshooters, could kill a fairly decent amount of people. Though that was when gun powder was still being stuffed down the barrel of a gun. And maybe a quick quote, yes?
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
-Theodore Roosevelt

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

As an example that doesn't involve the government outright spying on its populace, every time that a police officer asks you to get out of your car, this amendment should guarantee your right to not do so. It doesn't, if you don't get out you get arrested.

There's also a loophole in the 6th amendment now, as plenty of people have been held with little to no evidence against them for fairly lengthy times as "terrorists". More often than not they're just ordinary citizens.

The Bill of Rights aside, we need some constitutional amendments to protect our government from its own greed. I'm personally in favor of an amendment that mandates a balanced budget, as our trillions of dollars of debt are by and large the reason for our current economic recession and possible disaster.

One would think that with most of those ideas, that you would be for a less intrusive government, and for it to actually hold up to the Federal-State's "agreement," shall we say. Where the Federal Government takes care of things like foreign affairs and the what not, and the States take care of things within their borders.

[Frigidus]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

As an example that doesn't involve the government outright spying on its populace, every time that a police officer asks you to get out of your car, this amendment should guarantee your right to not do so. It doesn't, if you don't get out you get arrested.

There's also a loophole in the 6th amendment now, as plenty of people have been held with little to no evidence against them for fairly lengthy times as "terrorists". More often than not they're just ordinary citizens.

The Bill of Rights aside, we need some constitutional amendments to protect our government from its own greed. I'm personally in favor of an amendment that mandates a balanced budget, as our trillions of dollars of debt are by and large the reason for our current economic recession and possible disaster.

One would think that with most of those ideas, that you would be for a less intrusive government, and for it to actually hold up to the Federal-State's "agreement," shall we say. Where the Federal Government takes care of things like foreign affairs and the what not, and the States take care of things within their borders.

For the most part I am. I'm still in favor of a universal ban of semi-automatic weapons, it's an exception to a general rule.

[MeDeFe]

C'mon now. Lets go by article and section and rewrite through a logical debate. Any takers?

I'm in, but those other are already jumping ahead. Can someone, maybe the OP, start by quoting the first article and we discuss if and how it should be changed?

[Neoteny]

C'mon now. Lets go by article and section and rewrite through a logical debate. Any takers?

I'm in, but those other are already jumping ahead. Can someone, maybe the OP, start by quoting the first article and we discuss if and how it should be changed?

I'd do it. But does anyone seriously think we could make any real progress?

[InkL0sed]

So you believe the Negros are 3/5ths of a person?

[heavycola]

C'mon now. Lets go by article and section and rewrite through a logical debate. Any takers?

OMG i just spooged. And after this we can proofread the Lisbon Treaty? Oh boy!

[Snorri1234]

Eh, it was a start, but it's in dire need of an update.

I can't wait to hear just how.

Well, for one, the 2nd amendment needs to be rethought. When the founding fathers said "arms" they meant muskets, not semi-automatic weaponry. Should we allow weapons whose sole purpose is to kill other people in large numbers be put in the hands of the general public? Plus, the 4th amendment basically doesn't exist any more.

If I'm not mistaken, canons and a long line of muskets, as well as sharpshooters, could kill a fairly decent amount of people. Though that was when gun powder was still being stuffed down the barrel of a gun. And maybe a quick quote, yes?
"A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user."
-Theodore Roosevelt

Guns are now so easy to use and kill with there is almost no comparison. Untill a week ago I had never fired a gun in my life, but when I was at the gunrange the only instruction I got was "hold it like this and aim there" and I hit pretty good for someone who's never used a gun. It is so goddamn easy to fire an AK47 that only people with psychic abilities could have predicted it 200 years ago.


I understand a lot better now why Americans love their guns though, I have to admit they're pretty fucking awesome.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

As an example that doesn't involve the government outright spying on its populace, every time that a police officer asks you to get out of your car, this amendment should guarantee your right to not do so. It doesn't, if you don't get out you get arrested.

There's also a loophole in the 6th amendment now, as plenty of people have been held with little to no evidence against them for fairly lengthy times as "terrorists". More often than not they're just ordinary citizens.

But aren't those amendments just ignored instead of not being good?

[Neoteny]

I understand a lot better now why Americans love their guns though, I have to admit they're pretty fucking awesome.

Come to the dark side... anti-tank rifles for everyone! Anyhow, anyone who's played a decent video game recently should know how to operate 90% of the weapons in the world. Hell, that was half the appeal of Black, wasn't it?

[Frigidus]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

As an example that doesn't involve the government outright spying on its populace, every time that a police officer asks you to get out of your car, this amendment should guarantee your right to not do so. It doesn't, if you don't get out you get arrested.

There's also a loophole in the 6th amendment now, as plenty of people have been held with little to no evidence against them for fairly lengthy times as "terrorists". More often than not they're just ordinary citizens.

But aren't those amendments just ignored instead of not being good?

Indeed they are, but had they been worded less vaguely they could not just be ignored. That's my biggest problem with the Bill of Rights, there were no absolute boundaries specified in any of the amendments.

[Juan_Bottom]

Automatic weapons? In the US, they really aren't all that dangerous. Handguns are....

I understand a lot better now why Americans love their guns though, I have to admit they're pretty fucking awesome.

You should Paintball. You actually get to shoot each other.

[HapSmo19]

OK. Sorry to start this thread and go AWOL but I've been busy and I figured I'd try to actually get some sleep at night.

I'm in, but those other are already jumping ahead. Can someone, maybe the OP, start by quoting the first article and we discuss if and how it should be changed?

The first article being long, I thought we'd take it three sections at a time starting with the preamble in case some bachelor-of-the-arts-commie would like to change that too

--------------------------------------------------

Preamble

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

-----------------------------------------

Article. I. - The Legislative Branch
Section 1 - The Legislature

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 2 - The House

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Section 3 - The Senate

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, (chosen by the Legislature thereof,) (The preceding words in parentheses superseded by 17th Amendment, section 1.) for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.

Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; (and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.) (The preceding words in parentheses were superseded by the 17th Amendment, section 2.)

No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

[Juan_Bottom]

It's good. the three-fifths part is a little dated... but isn't hurting anything...

It could be changed to reflect the times, or to be more be sensitive.

Funny, I don't remember reading that phrase before...

[HapSmo19]

It's good. the three-fifths part is a little dated... but isn't hurting anything..It could be changed to reflect the times, or to be more be sensitive.

It has been changed. That should be a common theme here as the "dated" parts have been amended. I'm not feeling the "more sensitive" bit though. If a person is offended by the U.S. Constitution, they've got deeper issues.

Here's that amendment:

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868.
2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Here's the next three sections:

Article. I. - The Legislative Branch
Section 4 - Elections, Meetings

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing Senators.

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall (be on the first Monday in December,) (The preceding words in parentheses were superseded by the 20th Amendment, section 2.) unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section 5 - Membership, Rules, Journals, Adjournment

Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

Section 6 - Compensation

(The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States.) (The preceding words in parentheses were modified by the 27th Amendment.) They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

[Juan_Bottom]

It's racist is all. I just watched [u]the Amistad[/u].

I'm not saying anyone would be offended. Just that our nation should be sympathetic, if such a geniune case should immerge..

[Dancing Mustard]

You should change the word 'Chuse' to 'Choose'.

That'd be an awesome amendment.

[MeDeFe]

Don't be in such a hurry to post new ones, HapSmo, 5 hours isn't very much for discussing all that. And if parts have been amended, give us the changes as well, the most recent ones will probably be enough.


In any case, why exclude Indians from being counted? (State within the state?)
They should also cut that part about the right to vote only being granted to male inhabitants 21 years of age and only men forming the basis for calculating the number of representatives. And I see what you mean by racist, DM, though I doubt it has been applied in the last few decades.



For the next three sections.
A little more transparency would be nice, record everything (even if 90% would like to see it off the record), publish the journal once a year, and have someone other than the people about who it is decide whether it is to be published or not, for example if it contains information that poses a threat to national security. Then postpone the publication of those parts for one year or until the situation is resolved. Maybe the Senate could check the house's logs and vice versa.

[Juan_Bottom]

And I see what you mean by racist, DM, though I doubt it has been applied in the last few decades.

It certainly hasn't. Wait..... Mississippi? Didn't they just ratify a certain 13th amendment in 1998?<---not a joke

For our Non-US friends, thats the amendment which abolished slavery.

In any case, why exclude Indians from being counted? (State within the state?)

Yes... While I'm not sure that they can't vote, or aren't counted... all Indian reservations are considered a seperate form of federalized land. Local governments have no jurisdiction there, and the Federal Government herself has limited rights. My G-Ma was half Chippewa. It's awesome.

They should also cut that part about the right to vote only being granted to male inhabitants 21 years of age and only men forming the basis for calculating the number of representatives.

Ditto. I ignored it I suppose.

But this was fixed with womens sufferage though. It appears that although the Constitution may be Amended... they never change the original words.

[MeDeFe]

'Suffrage', Juan, not 'sufferage'. 'To suffer' has nothing to do with it.

[Juan_Bottom]

'Suffrage', Juan, not 'sufferage'. 'To suffer' has nothing to do with it.

I'm tired ok?

Have you even gone to sleep yet? You're here when I am...

[pimpdave]

There should be an amendment that somehow mentions wicked.