When will the Democratic Party finally die?

[Juan_Bottom]

How many people are going to ring up to say "Hey I agree".

You seem to agree that the legislation didn't pass overnight. We were fighting it for a while. If you agreed then you had to call up... Otherwise it looked as it would never pass.

But just because they're all up on a soapbox doesn't mean they're a majority.

No duh, but nonetheless the majority didn't want the bailout. Even those that were for the bailout will admit to that.

As opposed to Americans, who think it's a bad thing because they all have advanced economics degrees,

As opossed to Europeans who also have advanced degrees in Economics, as opossed to cash-carry wo just got his degree six years ago.

Pur-fucking-leeeeeze.

Please yourself. I din't see any charts in your presentation of the case. The fact is, we don't want the bailout. And as I said some banks don't even want it.

Juan. We're all influenced by the media one way or another (yes, even you). But to simply imagine that everybody who disagrees with your point of view must have just blindly swallowed what 'teh mediaz' told them without critically considering it, is just naive and childish.

I was making a point. If I were to expands that point then I would ask you exactly what sold you on itt. Section 4, 8, or 12? And for the record yes, I did read the bill(not the final version).

In other words: bullshit. Sorry, but you can't just project your point of view onto the whole nation.

That is exactly what you are doing, not I. I have no reason to lie... I'm from here, and I'm telling you, the country is against it! That's why the deciding votes were cast by safe Congressmen who are not in an election year.

There's vast numbers of Americans (no, not all evil reptons) that back the bailout and understand why it's a necessary evil.

I suppose 4% could be considered a vast majority.

Also, congrats on attempting a labelling fallacy. I'm sure that nobody will notice that. Well played.

I did it on purpose! So that people would post!

[jay_a2j]

Juan, there is a reason I have dancingnuisance on ignore......



Also, did you see this. What are your thoughts on it?

[Dancing Mustard]

Juan, there is a reason I have dancingnuisance on ignore...

Yeah, because you can't handle informed debate, and don't like people who refuse to blindly accept shonky youtube footage as iron-cast truth.

Too much logic destroying your ridiculous world-view? Just do a Jay, turn up the volume and drown them out. After all, if you can't hear people disagreeing with you, then it must mean everything you say is right!



Up yours you sanctimonious imbecile. When you finally leave this forum its average IQ will skyrocket.

[Juan_Bottom]

Wait a tick, Glenn Beck is speaking out about the new world order? WTF is going on on dish? First they start openly discussing Martial Law on Fox and MSN and now there's an actual New World Order in control? I can't watch vidoes but I am looking for the text right now. That honestly does interest me. Should interest everyone.

Serious though, if that is legit and he was talking about something like that, I expect him to either be canned, assassinated, or ruined by the end of the month...

[Juan_Bottom]

“There is a global meltdown coming,” “It is a global depression, and a One World currency, and a One World financial system is the endgame.”

I thought this was one of the guys who made fun of people who talked about stuff like this,

Oreilly worried aloud the stock market was a fixed game because he lost 5 years of savings in 2 weeks on last nights show

beck says china called for a one world currency last week and france called for a one [new] world order at the end of this "event"
So these are his actual complete words? I don't actually watch Glenn Beck, so I'm not all that familiar with him. Was this scripted or was he talking with someone or what?

[jay_a2j]

“There is a global meltdown coming,” “It is a global depression, and a One World currency, and a One World financial system is the endgame.”

I thought this was one of the guys who made fun of people who talked about stuff like this,

Oreilly worried aloud the stock market was a fixed game because he lost 5 years of savings in 2 weeks on last nights show

beck says china called for a one world currency last week and france called for a one [new] world order at the end of this "event"
So these are his actual complete words? I don't actually watch Glenn Beck, so I'm not all that familiar with him. Was this scripted or was he talking with someone or what?

Yes, those are the words Glen speaks in the video. Among other things. He was talking to the camera, he had no guests on. He also said, "It may be gone for good, if we don't wake up now.".... Speaking about growing up (the beginning was cut off but you can assume he was talking about our nation "will be gone for good")

[pimpdave]

but if you talk to any smart/informed American(except crazy Pimpdave, )

First of all, thank you for calling me crazy. It warms my heart. Now put on the fucking lotion or it gets the fucking hose again.

Also, and in conclusion, don't hate on a brotha for regularly reading the Wall Street Journal and chatting with well informed and highly educated economic experts who were at one time just college friends of mine.

Actually, no. No conclusion yet. This is a tangent, but worth detailing here, as it applies to another thread languishing in NYR right now -- the one about how science and math are better than the humanities because of robots and stuff -- but these guys I talk to regularly are not just "numbers guys".

Yes, they are "numbers guys", but they're more than that. The thing I miss most about college was being surrounded by such a wealth of knowledge and disciplines. We all informed each other of what we were learning about, and that helped inform how we approached problems and devised solutions. So when I say I talk to economic experts, I mean I'm talking to guys who may have focused on finance and economics in their undergraduate careers, but were well informed by the sciences, philosophy and history as we all were, just by virtue of being social creatures with diverging interests that shared them with one another.

I mention all of this because it's really important, in examining the question and possible consequences of the financial system bailout, to consider the big picture and all of the different disciplines that would apply to such an examination. "There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors." That's a paraphrase of a line from I think somewhere in the Book of Proverbs. One of those few lines that stuck with me from Sunday school.

Oh, and just to throw this out there, here's an interesting article on the topic:

Suddenly, Europe Looks Pretty Smart


(Yes, I almost shat all over myself when I read the title as well. But don't worry everyone, Europe is still gay because they do not have monster truck rallies at gun shows.)

[Juan_Bottom]

First of all, thank you for calling me crazy. It warms my heart. Now put on the fucking lotion or it gets the fucking hose again.

I just wanted to make sure the other, informed side commented.... and you did.

Also, and in conclusion, don't hate on a brotha for regularly reading the Wall Street Journal and chatting with well informed and highly educated economic experts who were at one time just college friends of mine.

Are they the same economic experts that got us into this little jam?

And don't think that I myself am not informed. The bailout was a raw deal(I read it) and this whole thing was allowed to happen anyway(I was a part of it). But my point still stand that the American public did not want the bailout. Am I lying?

[Juan_Bottom]

Yes, those are the words Glen speaks in the video. Among other things. He was talking to the camera, he had no guests on. He also said, "It may be gone for good, if we don't wake up now.".... Speaking about growing up (the beginning was cut off but you can assume he was talking about our nation "will be gone for good")

Things must be getting bad if he's allowed to say stuff like that on TV... I can't fathom what he was thinking. He just screamed "CONSPIRACY!!!" at his viewers....
And "JAY WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG OMG!!!!" at dancing Mustard...

I was trying to find more but this seems to be the only time that he has said such a thing....

[comic boy]

So Jay simply stopped debating when he realised that Joe was asking pertinent questions and Juan threw around utterly unsubstantiated numbers....garbage isnt it !

[jay_a2j]

"It is well the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." - Henry Ford

[pimpdave]

"It is well the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." - Henry Ford

Consider the source...


Henry Ford never made unsubstantiated claims on topics he had no real expertise or understanding of. Nope, never.

[heavycola]

“There is a global meltdown coming,” “It is a global depression, and a One World currency, and a One World financial system is the endgame.”

I thought this was one of the guys who made fun of people who talked about stuff like this,

Oreilly worried aloud the stock market was a fixed game because he lost 5 years of savings in 2 weeks on last nights show

beck says china called for a one world currency last week and france called for a one [new] world order at the end of this "event"
So these are his actual complete words? I don't actually watch Glenn Beck, so I'm not all that familiar with him. Was this scripted or was he talking with someone or what?

Yes, those are the words Glen speaks in the video. Among other things. He was talking to the camera, he had no guests on. He also said, "It may be gone for good, if we don't wake up now.".... Speaking about growing up (the beginning was cut off but you can assume he was talking about our nation "will be gone for good")

Dispatches from the Frothing Cauldron of Madness part 246:
I love the way it's always the loons that get the world-beating exclusives on the NWO's super-secret plans.
'Oops, says Hu Jintao, as China accidentally lets slip lizardmen's world domination plans'
'Assembled journalists agree to strike Sarkozy's "one uberfascist one world government, comin' right up" comments from press conference record'
You guys should check outDavid Icke - he used to play in goal for COventry City, and more importantly he broke the lizardman story:
"A pyramidal structure of human beings has been created under the influence and design of the extraterrestrial Prison Warders and their overall master, the Luciferic Consciousness. They control the human clique at the top of the pyramid, which I have dubbed the Global Elite."
Without meaning to take the piss, it seems like you inhabit similar planes of what might loosely be termed 'reality'.

[comic boy]

Be fair Cola, what do you expect from somebody who devoutly and literaly believes that the future of mankind was largely influenced by a talking snake

[Juan_Bottom]

So Jay simply stopped debating when he realised that Joe was asking pertinent questions and Juan threw around utterly unsubstantiated numbers....garbage isnt it !

You're a complete idiot. A complete idiot. I always see you making posts but you never add anything of substance. You're like a black hole of intelligence. All you have is your little flames and insults, but chip those away and there is no substance to you. The reason (I'm making an assumption here) that DM didn't throw any official numbers out to counter me (DM is smart and uses facts)is because there are no polls supporting him.
IF YOU"RE GOING TO SAY THAT I'M WRONG, then prove me wrong yourself. You're the same person who called me a liar in the 9-11 thread and then refused to apologize to me when I proved you wrong.
The only garbage here is you and your flame-spam.

Dispatches from the Frothing Cauldron of Madness part 246:
I love the way it's always the loons that get the world-beating exclusives on the NWO's super-secret plans.
'Oops, says Hu Jintao, as China accidentally lets slip lizardmen's world domination plans'
'Assembled journalists agree to strike Sarkozy's "one uberfascist one world government, comin' right up" comments from press conference record'
You guys should check outDavid Icke - he used to play in goal for COventry City, and more importantly he broke the lizardman story:
"A pyramidal structure of human beings has been created under the influence and design of the extraterrestrial Prison Warders and their overall master, the Luciferic Consciousness. They control the human clique at the top of the pyramid, which I have dubbed the Global Elite."
Without meaning to take the piss, it seems like you inhabit similar planes of what might loosely be termed 'reality'.

Not only are you not making sense to me, I for one would like to see an honest, and genuine rebuff to the video. Seriously because I can't see it. I do not believe in a "new world order" but if Glenn Beck is on tv talking about it, then I want to hear an honest reply.
What you're actually doing is attacking Jay and not Glenn Beck. Jay presented an actual, and interesting video. You guys always tell Jay that a New World Order is too big to keep secret and then when Jay shows you a video with it going mainstream you mock him? He gave you what you asked for!!! An actual chance to rebuke a genuine, and mainstream source!!!
Again, I just want to here the rebuke from someone intelligent that can see it!

Be fair Cola, what do you expect from somebody who devoutly and literaly believes that the future of mankind was largely influenced by a talking snake

And what would I expect from someone who only posts two lines at a time? You're like an English judge on an American reality show. Running around judgeing everyone else while not actually ever participating yourself.

[Snorri1234]

Not only are you not making sense to me, I for one would like to see an honest, and genuine rebuff to the video. Seriously because I can't see it. I do not believe in a "new world order" but if Glenn Beck is on tv talking about it, then I want to hear an honest reply.

If Glen Beck is throwing unsubstantiated claims around then I don't actually care whether someone rebukes it with facts.

linky linky
While I think that "China" is not the same thing as "a chinese newspaper", given the rigid state control over the press they have I can see the point.
However:

"The world urgently needs to create a diversified currency and financial system and fair and just financial order that is not dependent on the United States."

How is that asking for a "global world-currency"? They are asking for a new kind of system where things aren't dependent on the US alone.


Also, I don't really see much of a problem with a global currency actually. It smoothens up trade.

What you're actually doing is attacking Jay and not Glenn Beck. Jay presented an actual, and interesting video. You guys always tell Jay that a New World Order is too big to keep secret and then when Jay shows you a video with it going mainstream you mock him? He gave you what you asked for!!! An actual chance to rebuke a genuine, and mainstream source!!!
Again, I just want to here the rebuke from someone intelligent that can see it!

Attacking Glenn Beck is a lot like attacking Jay because they're both fruitloops.

But whatever.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who convened the Oct. 4 meeting, called for a global summit ``as soon as possible'' to implement ``a real and complete reform of the international financial system.'' He said ``all actors'' must be supervised, including credit-rating firms and hedge funds. Executive-pay systems must also be reviewed, he said.

``We want a new world to come out of this,'' Sarkozy said. ``We want to set up the basis for a capitalism of entrepreneurs, not speculators.''

Dude is totally talking about a NWO with a shadow-government....


What you guys are failing to see is that there is already an international financial system. It is already global, they just want to change it. All those banks in your country and every other country already operate on a global scale, they own banks all over the world, they have their main company somewhere not even in your country. If anything, it's the result of capitalism that made that possible. Since nothing was nationalised, everyone was free to become a global force.

[Juan_Bottom]

What you guys are failing to see is that there is already an international financial system. It is already global, they just want to change it. All those banks in your country and every other country already operate on a global scale, they own banks all over the world, they have their main company somewhere not even in your country. If anything, it's the result of capitalism that made that possible. Since nothing was nationalised, everyone was free to become a global force.

Thank you!, I was failing to see a lot because I couldn't watch the video! But what Jay was saying was definitly something of interest.
And I don't think of Glenn Beck as a fruitloop. Isn't he the guy on Fox News?

I have been reading a bit about OPECs plans for their own monetary system though. They tried to implement a world bank(gold) and it worked, and now it looks like they plan on going to a gold monetary system themself.
As far as what is being discussed for the "other" nations it looks like either a global currency(which may be what they wanted to begin with) or the end of using one nations money as your reserve currency. The idea of a nation buying into 10 other nations currency sounds ridiculous though, doesn't it?

I personally, am opposed to a world currency. It appears that OPEC is with me.

[heavycola]

[

Dispatches from the Frothing Cauldron of Madness part 246:
I love the way it's always the loons that get the world-beating exclusives on the NWO's super-secret plans.
'Oops, says Hu Jintao, as China accidentally lets slip lizardmen's world domination plans'
'Assembled journalists agree to strike Sarkozy's "one uberfascist one world government, comin' right up" comments from press conference record'
You guys should check outDavid Icke - he used to play in goal for COventry City, and more importantly he broke the lizardman story:
"A pyramidal structure of human beings has been created under the influence and design of the extraterrestrial Prison Warders and their overall master, the Luciferic Consciousness. They control the human clique at the top of the pyramid, which I have dubbed the Global Elite."
Without meaning to take the piss, it seems like you inhabit similar planes of what might loosely be termed 'reality'.

Not only are you not making sense to me, I for one would like to see an honest, and genuine rebuff to the video. Seriously because I can't see it. I do not believe in a "new world order" but if Glenn Beck is on tv talking about it, then I want to hear an honest reply.
What you're actually doing is attacking Jay and not Glenn Beck. Jay presented an actual, and interesting video. You guys always tell Jay that a New World Order is too big to keep secret and then when Jay shows you a video with it going mainstream you mock him? He gave you what you asked for!!! An actual chance to rebuke a genuine, and mainstream source!!!
Again, I just want to here the rebuke from someone intelligent that can see it!

I wasn't really attacking anyone, it was just a poor attempt at facetiousness because frankly that is all there is left. There is no other way to respond to this stuff without getting into endless, circular arguments. That marvin bush stuff? Where alex jones is caught lying on camera? That wasn't enough to even elicit a slight um or ahh from either you or jay, and whatever you believe about 9/11, that jones lied and has to be instantly discredited were the demonstrable facts. So don't start complaining that you don't get straight answers, because they a) have sod all effect apart from prolonging dreary threads and b) are less fun than being flippant. Look at the actual sarkozy quote and ask yourself objectively whether anyone with the slightest bit of awareness or reason could imagine that he is talking about a global elite dictatorship? No one has to respect beliefs that are so obviously, patently false. Why on earth would they?

[Juan_Bottom]

There is no other way to respond to this stuff without getting into endless, circular arguments. That marvin bush stuff? Where alex jones is caught lying on camera? That wasn't enough to even elicit a slight um or ahh from either you or jay, and whatever you believe about 9/11, that jones lied and has to be instantly discredited were the demonstrable facts.

My veiw on 911 has changed, though not because of you. Not to sound insulting, but I would sa more or less in spit of you. You never followed my links. I mean...... well you get it.

So don't start complaining that you don't get straight answers,

Normally I don't care, but this time was special! Simply because he was giving you guys what you had asked for in the past. And to me, that must be met.

Look at the actual sarkozy quote and ask yourself objectively whether anyone with the slightest bit of awareness or reason could imagine that he is talking about a global elite dictatorship? No one has to respect beliefs that are so obviously, patently false. Why on earth would they?

While not even believeing in the NWO, I did see it that way. Glenn Beck is a political talk show host. He very clearly aimed what he said at a very specific crowd. If you know that you are being watched by "troofers" why would you pander to them?
Whether he was F-ing with them or not, he did do something noteworthy there.

[Snorri1234]

Thank you!, I was failing to see a lot because I couldn't watch the video! But what Jay was saying was definitly something of interest.

Well yeah it's always interesting, it's just never actually true so after a while we just started ignoring it. Jay doesn't fact-check. Ever. I am 99% certain that he didn't research for himself whether France or China (like countries are a single entity that can speak) actually said those things. He just figured that Glenn Beck would never say something that wasn't actually true.

And I don't think of Glenn Beck as a fruitloop. Isn't he the guy on Fox News?

Being on Fox News automatically makes you a fruitloop. But he's going there in 2009, he has a show on CNN now and a radio-show too. He's pretty crazy though. I mean, I like him for quite a few things, but like any fruitloop he sometimes makes the weirdest statements.

I personally, am opposed to a world currency. It appears that OPEC is with me.

Well I was against the Euro first too. But then I realised that it is easier than all those different currencies with the world becoming less and less national. Sure, the introduction of the Euro meant we all got screwed as things became way expensive but people always say thing are getting more and more expensive and I've already made peace with the fact that the gov always finds ways to screw you anyway. (And I'm 20 years old! Damn, I'm one cynical f*ck already.)

[Nikolai]

Anyone have any insights on this? They've been here since the Consitution (They used to be called the Democratic-Republicans, but that was too much of a mouthful) and have seen the Federalists and the Whigs go down in flames.

Three historical points.

One: they have not been around since the Constitution. At the time of the passing of the Constitution in 1787, only the Federalists stood as an organized political party. The Democratic-Republicans were not founded until approximately 1792.

Two: The Democrat party of today is not the same as the Democratic-Republicans. Quite apart from the fact that today's Democrats hold opinions polar opposite to everything espoused by the Democratic-Republicans, the Democratic-Republican party went through an internal split after the War of 1812 into the Old Republicans and National Republicans. After the Federalist Part broke up in 1815, many of its former members joined the National Republicans, enabling them to stage an internal takeover. Most "party" politics of this time were settled as matters internal to the party. Thomas Jefferson had some excellent material on this subject in the 1820s, IIRC. At any rate, when Andrew Jackson ran for President in 1828, the Democratic-Republicans underwent a split, with Jackson's party establishing itself as the Democrats, and the portion of the Party led by then-President Adams and Henry Clay calling themselves the National Republicans. When Clay was defeated in the 1832 presidential election, the National Republicans were subsumed by the Whigs. (Which, as an incidental note, is why I rage every time I hear the Democrat party referred to as the "Party of Jefferson" when it should more properly be the "Party of Jackson.")

All of this information is fairly easily available online. A little research would assist you in strengthening the premise of your question.

That being said... I don't think it will for quite some time yet. In modern politics, a name means too much. (Both objectively and subject to the situation under discussion. ) I think it far more likely that the special interest side of the party that is represented by Obama will drive the common working man side of the party that was represented by Ms. Clinton out of the Democrat party and take over the name, driving the party farther and farther left. It may eventually implode, but I think the special interest groups will cause it to marginalize itself first.

Oh, I do apologize if any of the historical information has already been mentioned and I missed it, but I absolutely refuse to apologize for re-railing this conversation.

[Frigidus]

Oh, now I remember where I heard the name Glenn Beck before. I'm going to quote it because it's so funny.




The other type of 9/11 conspiracy email you dipshits keep sending is the $20 dollar WTC conspiracy. Glenn Beck--a loud-mouthed, fat-faced asshole on CNN--has a copy of it on his website:

The new U.S. $20 dollar bill contains hidden pictures of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks!

Yes! see for yourself...

1st) FOLD A NEW $20 BILL THIS WAY:



2nd) CONTINUE TO FOLD THIS WAY
Compare your fold precisely to this picture.



3rd) FOLD THE RIGHT SIDE UNDER,
exactly as you folded the left side.

You'll immediately see the Pentagon ablaze! (red circle)



4th) NOW FLIP IT OVER AND SEE OTHER SIDE

The Twin Towers of the World Trade Center are hit and smoking.



What are the odds that a simple geometric folding of the $20 bill would accidentally contain a representation of both terror attacks?

What are the odds that a simple geometric folding of a $20 bill with elements of design that were conceived in 1928 by a committee of treasurers, a full 42 years before the World Trade Center even existed, could accidentally contain a representation of both terror attacks? Pretty good, apparently.

The article on Beck's page goes on to ask: Need even more proof? No, you cock! You had me at "the U.S. $20 dollar bill contains hidden pictures of the World Trade Center." As if a folded picture of shrubbery on a bill that kind of looks like smoke wasn't convincing enough of a conspiracy, Beck offers this gem on his site to sway those few remaining skeptics:



This is followed by the fact that 9+11 = 20, and in big red letters:

COINCIDENCE? YOU DECIDE!

The question mark at the end of "COINCIDENCE" is clearly there to denote a rhetorical question, as clearly, this is not a coincidence. To help out Glenn Beck, I sat down with a $100 bill and tried to find any hidden messages the bill might contain. Here's one that he hasn't found yet:

Step 1:

Fold the bill so that the "ON" of "ONE" is covered:



Step 2:

Fold again like so, covering "HU" of "HUNDRED:"



Step 3:

Another fold covering part of "DOLLARS:"



Step 4:

Finally make one last fold, and with a magic marker, add the following letters to reveal a hidden message!



Coincidence? YOU DECIDE!

[Juan_Bottom]

[Nikolai]

That's amazing!!!

[Snorri1234]

Oh, now I remember where I heard the name Glenn Beck before. I'm going to quote it because it's so funny.




The other type of 9/11 conspiracy email you dipshits keep sending is the $20 dollar WTC conspiracy. Glenn Beck--a loud-mouthed, fat-faced asshole on CNN--has a copy of it on his website:

The new U.S. $20 dollar bill contains hidden pictures of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks!

Yes! see for yourself...

1st) FOLD A NEW $20 BILL THIS WAY:



2nd) CONTINUE TO FOLD THIS WAY
Compare your fold precisely to this picture.



3rd) FOLD THE RIGHT SIDE UNDER,
exactly as you folded the left side.

You'll immediately see the Pentagon ablaze! (red circle)



4th) NOW FLIP IT OVER AND SEE OTHER SIDE

The Twin Towers of the World Trade Center are hit and smoking.



What are the odds that a simple geometric folding of the $20 bill would accidentally contain a representation of both terror attacks?

What are the odds that a simple geometric folding of a $20 bill with elements of design that were conceived in 1928 by a committee of treasurers, a full 42 years before the World Trade Center even existed, could accidentally contain a representation of both terror attacks? Pretty good, apparently.

The article on Beck's page goes on to ask: Need even more proof? No, you cock! You had me at "the U.S. $20 dollar bill contains hidden pictures of the World Trade Center." As if a folded picture of shrubbery on a bill that kind of looks like smoke wasn't convincing enough of a conspiracy, Beck offers this gem on his site to sway those few remaining skeptics:



This is followed by the fact that 9+11 = 20, and in big red letters:

COINCIDENCE? YOU DECIDE!

The question mark at the end of "COINCIDENCE" is clearly there to denote a rhetorical question, as clearly, this is not a coincidence. To help out Glenn Beck, I sat down with a $100 bill and tried to find any hidden messages the bill might contain. Here's one that he hasn't found yet:

Step 1:

Fold the bill so that the "ON" of "ONE" is covered:



Step 2:

Fold again like so, covering "HU" of "HUNDRED:"



Step 3:

Another fold covering part of "DOLLARS:"



Step 4:

Finally make one last fold, and with a magic marker, add the following letters to reveal a hidden message!



Coincidence? YOU DECIDE!

That's from Maddox, right?