Blah blah blah

[black elk speaks]

socialism A leftist political ideology that emphasizes the principle of equality and usually prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society and the economy via taxation, regulation, redistribution, and public ownership.

Do you really lack basic english comprehension skills? The key part of that is the former bit - it specifies that socialism is a government that stresses egalitarian values, not that intervenes in society etc. The latter half is a usual effect of socialism, but not exclusively of socialism, which is why we have the aforementioned social services (what your taxes pay for).

Screaming "socialist! evil!" when a tax rise is suggested is foolish in the extreme - a reasonable debate (which you're now actually starting to get into, commendably) is to suggest where social(ist) government policies go too far. So far, you've named corporate welfare and public health services as the two harbingers of metamorphosis into your (hugely perjorative, btw) "monstrosity of Socialism". I can assure you that there are a lot of countries in the world with public healthcare that are the better for it, living in one of them (when I'm hit by a car I'm happy that I can get treated at least a little regardless of my current employment status), and corporate welfare is, while often overdone - see debate on subsidising farmers - a big part of ensuring that, for example, your lauded small businesses don't go under as soon as Starbucks/Wal-Mart/whatever influential chain sets up next door, because they don't care about you working it for yourself, they care that you're cutting into their profits.

What are you saying here?

prescribes a large role for government to intervene in society and the economy via taxation, regulation, redistribution, and public ownership.

How is this possible without "intervening" as you say? When the Fed adjusts the interest rate, when they print out hundreds of billions of dollars to adjust the economy for the criminal activities of a few, when they heavily tax the wealthy in order to give it to people that did nothing to earn it, what do you mean when you suggest that socialism doesn't intervene in society?

I have pointed out to the lot of you how socialism a true and sure path to bloated government. History shows us that either:

A. big governments get bigger until they implode (communist Russia)
or
B. socialist governments pave bloat the power of government to a point where a mad man can come into office, seize greater power and wreak havoc on the world (Nazi Germany)

I don't believe that I misunderstood anything that the initial definition states, in fact, I do believe that you have made my point for me.

Thank you for that.

[hecter]

1. You're leaving out the "usually" in that sentence
2. While communist is extreme socialism, socialism is not communism. It's not like just because a country is a little socialist it will suddenly turn communist
3. Nazi Germany was not socialist, as you continue to ignore the key part of the definition, "[socialism] emphasizes the principle of equality".

[InkL0sed]

I thought because a square is a rectangle, a rectangle must always be a square???

Damn it hecter, you're tearing down my pseudo-logical constructs!

[black elk speaks]

1. You're leaving out the "usually" in that sentence
2. While communist is extreme socialism, socialism is not communism. It's not like just because a country is a little socialist it will suddenly turn communist
3. Nazi Germany was not socialist, as you continue to ignore the key part of the definition, "[socialism] emphasizes the principle of equality".

1. Usually is good enough for me. too much power in a top heavy government will inevitably become corrupt and dysfunctional.

2. I It is likely that a country that is a little socialist, will become more socialist, unless it becomes less socialist. In either case, the chances of it not progressing one way or the other are not very likely at all, that would make a government stagnant. But what happens when you make a government powerful, it wants to become more powerful. Governments are not very good as dismantling themselves. They are, however, pretty good at adding new offices, more bureaucracy and costing ever more and more to run. All very inefficiently.

3. The Nazi party was born of socialism. You can take the notion of "principals of equality" and disclose that notion, as they did, only to white Germans and you have a fascist socialist government. I know, I know... that doesn't make sense to you. That is because you fail to understand what people can use socialism as a tool to make people accept a regime as good for them, giving over all support and governmental power without hesitation.

this isn't new. Maybe your socialist governments didn't explain this kind of practice to you because they wanted you to love them, they wanted you to believe that you are weak and nothing without your precocious socialist government. You can't do what needs to be done to provide for yourself and your family, you need government to steal from some rich guy to do that for you. But when all the rich guys are gone, and all their wealth is distributed, you are all just a bit above the poverty line.

[black elk speaks]

I thought because a square is a rectangle, a rectangle must always be a square???

Damn it hecter, you're tearing down my pseudo-logical constructs!

When you adjust the rectangle, change it as governments always do, it can at some point become a square.

[hecter]

3. The Nazi party was born of socialism. You can take the notion of "principals of equality" and disclose that notion, as they did, only to white Germans and you have a fascist socialist government. I know, I know... that doesn't make sense to you. That is because you fail to understand what people can use socialism as a tool to make people accept a regime as good for them, giving over all support and governmental power without hesitation.

Wow, so because the Nazi party said they were socialists that made them socialists? Pretty neat... I'm an alien space cowboy, from planet pinkocommiezon. Perhaps you'd like to visit us sometime? Our atmosphere is mostly an oxygen-xenon mix, so you'll sound pretty different, but you'll be able to breathe. You'd be welcomed with open arms and treated with the utmost respect, I can assure you.

[Ditocoaf]

3. The Nazi party was born of socialism. You can take the notion of "principals of equality" and disclose that notion, as they did, only to white Germans and you have a fascist socialist government. I know, I know... that doesn't make sense to you. That is because you fail to understand what people can use socialism as a tool to make people accept a regime as good for them, giving over all support and governmental power without hesitation.

Wow, so because the Nazi party said they were socialists that made them socialists? Pretty neat... I'm an alien space cowboy, from planet pinkocommiezon. Perhaps you'd like to visit us sometime? Our atmosphere is mostly an oxygen-xenon mix, so you'll sound pretty different, but you'll be able to breathe. You'd be welcomed with open arms and treated with the utmost respect, I can assure you.

HAh! You're only claiming that you're a space cowboy because you want to trick me into going into space to die!

Now we know that whenever we meet someone who claims to be a space cowboy, they intend to kill us. It's good to know. Goddamn space cowboys, all they want is murder. Hecter just proved it.

[black elk speaks]

3. The Nazi party was born of socialism. You can take the notion of "principals of equality" and disclose that notion, as they did, only to white Germans and you have a fascist socialist government. I know, I know... that doesn't make sense to you. That is because you fail to understand what people can use socialism as a tool to make people accept a regime as good for them, giving over all support and governmental power without hesitation.

Wow, so because the Nazi party said they were socialists that made them socialists? Pretty neat... I'm an alien space cowboy, from planet pinkocommiezon. Perhaps you'd like to visit us sometime? Our atmosphere is mostly an oxygen-xenon mix, so you'll sound pretty different, but you'll be able to breathe. You'd be welcomed with open arms and treated with the utmost respect, I can assure you.

I would only be welcomed if I had a high paying job and you could tax me to the teeth and pay for your health care.

[Ditocoaf]

3. The Nazi party was born of socialism. You can take the notion of "principals of equality" and disclose that notion, as they did, only to white Germans and you have a fascist socialist government. I know, I know... that doesn't make sense to you. That is because you fail to understand what people can use socialism as a tool to make people accept a regime as good for them, giving over all support and governmental power without hesitation.

Wow, so because the Nazi party said they were socialists that made them socialists? Pretty neat... I'm an alien space cowboy, from planet pinkocommiezon. Perhaps you'd like to visit us sometime? Our atmosphere is mostly an oxygen-xenon mix, so you'll sound pretty different, but you'll be able to breathe. You'd be welcomed with open arms and treated with the utmost respect, I can assure you.

I would only be welcomed if I had a high paying job and you could tax me to the teeth and pay for your health care.

Nah, if you didn't have a high-paying job, you could get a decent one fairly easily -- if you don't have the training required, there's a free night class you could take.

[black elk speaks]

3. The Nazi party was born of socialism. You can take the notion of "principals of equality" and disclose that notion, as they did, only to white Germans and you have a fascist socialist government. I know, I know... that doesn't make sense to you. That is because you fail to understand what people can use socialism as a tool to make people accept a regime as good for them, giving over all support and governmental power without hesitation.

Wow, so because the Nazi party said they were socialists that made them socialists? Pretty neat... I'm an alien space cowboy, from planet pinkocommiezon. Perhaps you'd like to visit us sometime? Our atmosphere is mostly an oxygen-xenon mix, so you'll sound pretty different, but you'll be able to breathe. You'd be welcomed with open arms and treated with the utmost respect, I can assure you.

I would only be welcomed if I had a high paying job and you could tax me to the teeth and pay for your health care.

Nah, if you didn't have a high-paying job, you could get a decent one fairly easily -- if you don't have the training required, there's a free night class you could take.

Ahhh, yes, because free night classes do produce the most qualified people for the job, and usher you right into high paying salary positions. It all makes much more sense now. Tired and under paid community college professors rush enthusiastically to their second or third job of teaching life's "late bloomers" not for the great benefits and pay, but for the betterment of society as a whole. Clearly, if they were so qualified to make the extra earnings teaching people those skills, filling the job market with competition for their line of work is exactly what they should be doing.

[PopeBenXVI]

The more money government takes the less freedom you have. They make you give to them and they decide who gets it. It is very different from charity. Even the poorest people in the U.S. work force are much richer than the poorest of other countries so the pro Socialism argument of giving to the less fortunate and poor does not fit. It would then need to be redistributed to 3rd world counties, not here. Those promoting Socialism for the sake of helping the poor should realize that the more money people have the more they are able to give to charities like churches who feed people in Africa much more cost effectively than governements do.

Everything the government currently runs waists our money so why give them more money and more control? Capitalism is not the problem as reward for hard work is a proven working system. The problem is greedy people who do not use extreme excess of wealth to help others. It may not be fair and I don't agree with it but that is their freedom to do so with what they have earned.

[hecter]

Everything the government currently runs waists our money...

Ya! No more police! No more fire department! No more public schools! Privatize it all, libertarianism FTW!

[InkL0sed]

The more money government takes the less freedom you have. They make you give to them and they decide who gets it. It is very different from charity. Even the poorest people in the U.S. work force are much richer than the poorest of other countries so the pro Socialism argument of giving to the less fortunate and poor does not fit. It would then need to be redistributed to 3rd world counties, not here. Those promoting Socialism for the sake of helping the poor should realize that the more money people have the more they are able to give to charities like churches who feed people in Africa much more cost effectively than governements do.

Everything the government currently runs waists our money so why give them more money and more control? Capitalism is not the problem as reward for hard work is a proven working system. The problem is greedy people who do not use extreme excess of wealth to help others. It may not be fair and I don't agree with it but that is their freedom to do so with what they have earned.

What makes you think we have freedom to be taken to begin with?

[black elk speaks]

Everything the government currently runs waists our money...

Ya! No more police! No more fire department! No more public schools! Privatize it all, libertarianism FTW!

Now you're starting to catch on

The more money government takes the less freedom you have. They make you give to them and they decide who gets it. It is very different from charity. Even the poorest people in the U.S. work force are much richer than the poorest of other countries so the pro Socialism argument of giving to the less fortunate and poor does not fit. It would then need to be redistributed to 3rd world counties, not here. Those promoting Socialism for the sake of helping the poor should realize that the more money people have the more they are able to give to charities like churches who feed people in Africa much more cost effectively than governements do.

Everything the government currently runs waists our money so why give them more money and more control? Capitalism is not the problem as reward for hard work is a proven working system. The problem is greedy people who do not use extreme excess of wealth to help others. It may not be fair and I don't agree with it but that is their freedom to do so with what they have earned.

What makes you think we have freedom to be taken to begin with?

We have the right of Free speech and the freedom to do as we please. I can study hard and become a medical doctor or I can own a business, make a living betting on horses or flipping burgers. I am free to pursue my own happiness. But with that comes the responsibility for my actions. People just seem to not want to be responsible.

[PopeBenXVI]

Everything the government currently runs waists our money...

Ya! No more police! No more fire department! No more public schools! Privatize it all, libertarianism FTW!

We already spend more money per child than the 30 counties ahead of us in Math & science. So yes, Public schools need reform but the teachers unions are part of the problem just like some of the corruption in the Auto workers unions that are contributing to GM etc.. going under. They keep demanding more money even with the loses when other companies just don't raise wages when the business is not there.

I never said these services should go away. The Government has a bad habit of making things harder and cost more than they should. Here is another example for you. I live in Milwaukee and this past year the Dept Of transportation did a major overhaul of the interchange in downtown. They acctually finished it under budget. That was not good enough though. They felt the need to spend about $70,000 more in advertising that they finished it under budget.

How bought just having the news stations cover the story instead of waisting our money on billboards to say "we finished under budget but we just spent $3000 of your money on this billboard to tell you that.

[black elk speaks]

Everything the government currently runs waists our money...

Ya! No more police! No more fire department! No more public schools! Privatize it all, libertarianism FTW!

We already spend more money per child than the 30 counties ahead of us in Math & science. So yes, Public schools need reform but the teachers unions are part of the problem just like some of the corruption in the Auto workers unions that are contributing to GM etc.. going under. They keep demanding more money even with the loses when other companies just don't raise wages when the business is not there.

I never said these services should go away. The Government has a bad habit of making things harder and cost more than they should. Here is another example for you. I live in Milwaukee and this past year the Dept Of transportation did a major overhaul of the interchange in downtown. They acctually finished it under budget. That was not good enough though. They felt the need to spend about $70,000 more in advertising that they finished it under budget.

How bought just having the news stations cover the story instead of waisting our money on billboards to say "we finished under budget but we just spent $3000 of your money on this billboard to tell you that.

Unions need to go away. They have served their purpose, but like government, they just don't know how to downsize.

Just curious, were they still under budget after their ad campaign?

[MeDeFe]

I see the light now, it's all the unions fault that the motor industry is ailing, it has nothing to do with decisions to build ever bigger cars while oil and petrol prices were heading north.

[Dancing Mustard]

I see the light now, it's all the unions fault that the motor industry is ailing, it has nothing to do with decisions to build ever bigger cars while oil and petrol prices were heading north.

Or to do with American manufacturer's practice of ignoring the option to cross-subsidise when competing against multiple technologically superior imported models.

Yup. All the unions fault. That sounds feasible.

[Nickbaldwin]

Since when did money = freedom?

[Ditocoaf]

Since when did money = freedom?

Obviously. When you say "success," you mean money. When you say "freedom," you mean money. When you say, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," you mean "life, liberty, and property." (Because the only happiness to pursue is ownership of goods.) Whenever you talk about anything that's really general, but good, you should realize: you're really talking about money.

[The1exile]

1. Usually is good enough for me.

But not for a logical understanding of the definition of socialism. Hence, lacking in english comprehension skills.

[PopeBenXVI]

I see the light now, it's all the unions fault that the motor industry is ailing, it has nothing to do with decisions to build ever bigger cars while oil and petrol prices were heading north.

I don't think union should go away but what I am saying is that when a company is not making money you can't raise wages for the workers! Some unions are extortionists today demanding a certain percent increase every year regardless of whether or not the company is losing money.

The only other people who get pay increases when their is no money for it is the governement politicians. When Toyoda pays $35 an hour and GM is forced to Pay $60 - $80 an hour multiplied by hundreds of thousands of workers you tell me why taxpayers should bail them out? That just means you and I are paying the wages for GM workers! They need to file bankruptsy and restructure like every other business has to do and then those unions may only get $45 an hour when the company starts back up.

Unions were started in this country to protect workers from slave wages and bad working conditions. The minimun wage, free market competition and O.S.H.A. have taken care of most of those problems without having to pay people way more than a job should be worth. That and extensive government regulations on car making increase cost greatly in this country.