Tournament Creation Limits? [Poll Added By NS]

[irlLordy]

Hoi, hoi, I'd like to contribute my 0.02 euro here. First of all, Id like to say that I certainly agree with the statements that if a tournament is well organised and ran, that is the most important factor. I've entered quite a few tournaments, and I fully appreciate the hard work the organiser put in, and I hope that none of the organisers feel discouraged at setting up new ones by this thread.

That said, Bones raised some interesting points, some of which are just a consequence of the fact CC is getting bigger, and more people are interested in and organising tournaments. This means there's more to choose from and that's great, but it also means that we need to look at how this is organised and see if it can be improved. I think subforums is a good way to deal with this, as opposed to limiting the number of tournaments an organiser can run. I'd suggest organising the subforums either by number or type - 16, 17-32, 33-64, 65+ for example. That way, people who want a quick tournament can check out the 16 and 17-32 player forums, while those wanting longer tournaments can go to the ones with more players. The other suggestion would be by type - 1v1, 1vn, teams, and mixed. People looking for a particular type of tournament would then be able to find them easier. Either of these would enable tournament organisers to stick up as many tournaments as they want into the appropriate subforum, without fear of "crowding out" those larger tournaments which may take more time to pick up players.

The other comment Bones made in his initial post was about creativity of tournaments. This I don't agree with. There's absolutely nothing wrong with bracketed or league based tournaments - it's how most competitions are organised in the real world, it's simple for players to understand and follow, and the rules are clearly understood. I can guarantee you that if I were to organise a tournament, my first ones would be in those formats. That said, some players clearly do want something different. In that case, there was another suggestion earlier about a forum for organizers - that would be great for encouraging more creative ideas - organizers can bounce ideas off each other, get feedback etc.

These seem like relatively easy things to implement and would go a long way to addressing some of the issues raised here.

[olkok]

At this point in the thread it has become obvious that this is not about how many tournaments are created as the title suggests. It's more about how do we get the forums organized so people can find what they like. As CC grows this will become a bigger issue and should be dealt with now rather than later. All formats of tournaments should be encouraged. It just time to expand the forums for the good of the site.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

Here's an Idea, How about someone that has a problem with the current system make a thread in SUGGESTIONS & BUGS where something will actually have a chance to be done about this. Maybe suggest creating sub forums for Create/join tournaments to presort tourneys as their made.

Actually, this forum IS the best place for this kind of topic. The thread was started with a person's concern, which is one of the uses of this forum, and it has evolved to include a discussion of either new policies or new forum/thread structures. Anything that has to do with the Tournament Handbook (which contains all of the tournament policies) or the forum structure DO belong here because they are not site-wide issues. The Sugs/Bugs forum is for site-issues, whereas this forum is for dealing with tournament policies/layout or general conversation about tournaments. I guarantee you posting about a tournament issue in this forum will get it noticed by people who can do something about it (namely me and the other TDs) far faster than posting it in Sugs/Bugs. Same goes with the C&A forum as well: tournament complaints that don't break site rules (like secret diplomacy) should be dealt with in the tournament forums by a Tournament Director, not a C&A mod.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. 1 persons concern. Why are we spending so much energy and time to entertain 1 persons problem ? A person who doesnt host tourneys of his own but got the balls to sit there and whine and attack players who actually put time into the site to make it better. I believe it is because you agree with this person and you would like to make the changes and want to know what the majority of the players here think and the majority dont want restrictions ( according to poll ) and I believe you will still make the change anyway. Just like removing medals and issuing franchise. You do what you personally want and not what the members want.

[scottishleaf]

Count me in the 47% that voted No, some are not creating too many tournaments at once, and the Directors should stay out of it.

I have played in several of HA's tournaments and have always found them well run and fun. I actually like the fact he is running all these quick tournaments as it means I can choose to join tournaments on maps I like and avoid ones I don't like. I have only ever organised one tournament and although it was small it took up a fair amount of time and it means I more than appreciate the time that organisers like HA and B00060 take to run tournaments. The vast majority of games I play on Conquer Club these days are tournament games and I feel it is wrong to limit the amount of tournaments any one person can run at any given time.

To all those who run successful tournaments regularly, thank you and keep up the good work!!

[amazzony]

Damn, I've missed a lot. Glad to see that HA's messages have brought so many people discussing the topic.

I'm very attached to tournaments and everything related to it which means that I always read everything related to it but.... I read approximately half of the posts in the thread. With the first 4-5 pages I realised that the poll is completely useless in this case. Night Strike set up a great poll so I have nothing against the poll but the way people vote is ridiculous. Most people have probably understood that Bones has a crusade against simple tournaments (you are all wrong!) and they are voting no because they think that this way they are protecting HA and others who run simplest tournaments. But this is not the point here. Point has been brought out by only few people and I think barterer brought out the point best - tournament etiquette. As much as I have read - he has talked to deaf ears.

My 2 cents (which I should of posted as soon as I posted my first comment): if 2-3 people post 30-40 very similar tournaments then it's hurting the tournament forums by scaring away people who enjoy more complicated tournaments and who look for something different. It also hurts organisers who are running more complicated tournaments because these are "getting lost" in the "mess" (yes, I know what I am talking about, I've felt it personally).

Small 16-player tournaments fill in 1-2 days. Why not post 2-3 tournaments in every 2-3 days? Perhaps it's a small time loss but if you have time to run so many tournaments then the 5 extra minutes per week won't be anything. That way you won't clutter the Create/Join forum, respect other organisers and give chance to more players play in your tournaments.

Highlander - once again - I have nothing against your tournaments and I enjoy playing in some of them but I don't like the way they are posted because that way very few people play in them.


Finally, everybody stop attacking Bones, this is incredibly stupid and childish! He is one of the most grateful players you can see in the tournament forums!

[Night Strike]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. 1 persons concern. Why are we spending so much energy and time to entertain 1 persons problem ? A person who doesnt host tourneys of his own but got the balls to sit there and whine and attack players who actually put time into the site to make it better.

Almost anything on this site that starts a thread is due to 1 person's concern. Then, people post in the thread either agreeing or disagreeing. There are clearly people on both side of this issue, so Bones wasn't the only person to have his point of view. Not every action on this site automatically makes it better. I believe Bones' contention was that having so many similar tournaments all recruiting players at the same time was actually harming the site by covering up large tournaments and tournaments by new organizers. It's an interpretation of an observation, and people are allowed to have differing ones.

[PaulusH]

Within two days more then 100 posts and 200 votes here on this topic
Faster filling compared to many tournaments

It will cost me more then two days to translate them and understand them all
By that time there are a lot more posts I expect, so just give my 0.02 with a high risk that it is only repeating earlier arguments, sorry

Clearly the style of the tournaments that are discussed here are not the style that I use. That doesn't make their tournaments better and it doesn't make my tournaments better. The basic point is that they are different.

And that is the good part of the current tournament environment: it has a lot of freedom. In that way it is able for many people to have some nice idea's and try it.
Some will not work because it was a bad idea, some will not work because the organizer is not able to handle it. Other reasons are also possible and whatever the reason something like that is always sad, especially for the people in the tournament. On the other hand, it is also charming to see how organizers struggle with the tournament-reality. Also the complete misunderstanding of that struggle by people who join tournaments is basically charming to see.
I understand that people who don't make tournaments, often think that it is easy and also that they like to change the way things are going. But to my opinion you shouldn't start with some criticism until they have finished at least three tournaments themself.

Anyway the best option for all: keep on smiling

[Bones2484]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. 1 persons concern. Why are we spending so much energy and time to entertain 1 persons problem ? A person who doesnt host tourneys of his own but got the balls to sit there and whine and attack players who actually put time into the site to make it better.

I know. It's a shame that 1 person's concern turned out to be over 50% of the vote across the site. I'm heartbroken that more than half the people involved with tournaments agree with me that there is some sort of problem.

I've run countless clan tournaments including the CLA. I know exactly what it takes to set up games, organize players, and record results. Just because I don't have one of JR's all-important shiny medals doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. And I'm pretty sure that the work I've done for Clan tournaments is much more difficult than one of your countless 16 person win 4 games tournaments. The only difference is that I don't do it for the medals.

Please think before you type.

[SuicidalSnowman]

A. As I scrolled down the list I loved the variety. I absolutely loved it. I literally thought, "dang, this is awesome, look at all the choice."

B. When I saw multiple tourneys being offered by a few players I thought, "man, they are really supportive of this, how fantastic is that!"

C. I feel, as a novice to this aspect of what CC has to offer, that more is better. If there were fewer I would have hesitated in joining the 5 or 6 that I did this week out of concern that I was going to make a fool of myself among elite players who are crammed into far fewer games.

Let's all take a look at a different perspective from someone who is a little bit outside the fray...

[max is gr8]

My Post

Yes-I would say you need to go into all my tourneys to see the different formats and the amount of creativity I have put into my tourneys.

I just went through the list of finished tournaments in the Hall of Fame they might as well all be the same, there were only a few tournaments that were *different*

So what if I have multiple tourneys with the same concept. I have spent 100's of hours running these and I make every effort to include everyone in them including freemiums. I also could solicit my small tourneys and have them filled in 10 minutes but I don't do that so others have a chance to get into them. A lot of you don't have a clue how much time and effort are put into these tourneys and the system involved:

This is really a null statement that has little to do with my post so I've snippidy snipped it.

You may get a picture of why I do post so many tourneys at once. It is part of the system that makes them run so smoothly. If I had to do all these things one or two at a time and do it over and over again it would slow the entire process down. I am about efficiency.

Too right you are about efficiency and you are definitely helping the enviroment with all the recycling you seem to be doing

I can ramble on and on about so many of the things that have been said in this thread to day, but I know it would be a waste of time. Some of you will have your thoughts and really never have a clue what it takes to run a tourney let alone the amount of time and dedication put into it weather it is simpler or extensive.

Extensive tournaments require more work, which is why I'd put Amazzony as one of the best organisers, she doesn't just have the multitude she has variety

I know I have a ton of players that love my tourneys and appreciate my efforts. For them I will continue to post and run tourneys. For some of you, I must say join the tourneys you want to and don't be so damn lazy about sifting through 1.5 to 2.5 pages of tourneys.

I think people have a right to be annoyed when they see the only options being between 3 or 4 organizers and most of them running the same thing anyway with the map being the only difference.

Your "Don't Blink" series is essentially on massive tournament broken up into 140ish little pieces. Each one has the exact same rules and the exact same settings and the exact same number of people involved. So why not do something along the lines of having 1 tournament that incorporates all of those mini pieces into one? Have 500+ people sign up for one giant tourney rather than 500+ people sign up for 140 smaller ones?

I agree with whoever made this post. Amazzony made a massive bracket tournament (Olympics) She made probably as many games as you have in both of your "All around CC's maps" and the "don't blink" series with only one blanket tournament.

HA, don't treat this as me attacking you, or your tournaments I agree that they take work, just to re-use what Amazonny said, if they take 1 or 2 days to fill why not wait till the third day to make more tournaments?

[jpcloet]

I've run countless clan tournaments including the CLA. I know exactly what it takes to set up games, organize players, and record results. Just because I don't have one of JR's all-important shiny medals doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. And I'm pretty sure that the work I've done for Clan tournaments is much more difficult than one of your countless 16 person win 4 games tournaments. The only difference is that I don't do it for the medals. Please think before you type.

It has nothing to do with thinking; but rather being informed and knowledgeable. There are a number of clan leaders (Bones is certainly one of them) who are more organized than some of the best TO's. I have run over 50+ tournaments and some of the biggest site has ever seen, would you like to belittle me as well since I only have 4 tournament medals? Your post JR is not relevant to this conversation. Moving on.....


I have a question to ask; can we not allow or have some sort of system whereby someone who is running 10 of the exact same 16 brackets to put them all in one thread. I have certainly been in the spot where a new and completely innovative tournament (was nominated for tournament of the year) was bumped to the second page due to a mass amount of what I deem to be "Simple" tournaments. It did still fill, however, there is a small issue here we shouldn't ignore.

It would also be nice if there was a automated system wheras one could start a tournament with one of the current "Standard" setups and have it automatically run by the site. 16, 32, and 64 brackets, plus maybe some of the league based ones as well.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I've run countless clan tournaments including the CLA. I know exactly what it takes to set up games, organize players, and record results. Just because I don't have one of JR's all-important shiny medals doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. And I'm pretty sure that the work I've done for Clan tournaments is much more difficult than one of your countless 16 person win 4 games tournaments. The only difference is that I don't do it for the medals. Please think before you type.

It has nothing to do with thinking; but rather being informed and knowledgeable. There are a number of clan leaders (Bones is certainly one of them) who are more organized than some of the best TO's. I have run over 50+ tournaments and some of the biggest site has ever seen, would you like to belittle me as well since I only have 4 tournament medals? Your post JR is not relevant to this conversation. Moving on.....


I have a question to ask; can we not allow or have some sort of system whereby someone who is running 10 of the exact same 16 brackets to put them all in one thread. I have certainly been in the spot where a new and completely innovative tournament (was nominated for tournament of the year) was bumped to the second page due to a mass amount of what I deem to be "Simple" tournaments. It did still fill, however, there is a small issue here we shouldn't ignore.

It would also be nice if there was a automated system wheras one could start a tournament with one of the current "Standard" setups and have it automatically run by the site. 16, 32, and 64 brackets, plus maybe some of the league based ones as well.

the problem is, a couple players think a large, complex, year long tourney is what is wanted by the majority of players and it is far from the truth. It pisses me off to receive a PM 3 months later to join games in a tourney that I thought was already over because it took so god damn long to complete the previous round. I like the fast hitting tournies that are over in a week or so. That is what I enjoy playing and that is what I host for others to play and they fill up within a day and that is what most players want. If you want to consolidate threads into sub forums than great. But to restrict tournies for players just because of the size of the event is rediculous.

[amazzony]

JR, try to get the point of this thread! It's not a question if small tournaments should be allowed. It is a question how they should be posted to the Create/Join forums. Nobody is attacking small tournaments like you are attacking bigger tournaments.

[jpcloet]

There are several things developing in this thread and the TD's need to ask:

How do we enable quick tournaments?
How do we enable more innovation?
How do we enable tournaments with greater depth where winning a medal means something special?

Not easy to answer.

[Bones2484]

JR, try to get the point of this thread! It's not a question if small tournaments should be allowed. It is a question how they should be posted to the Create/Join forums. Nobody is attacking small tournaments like you are attacking bigger tournaments.

Exactly. I think getting rid of small tournaments is an awful idea and it's not the point of this thread.

[Lindax]

b00060, come on mate, please uncancel your tournaments.

Lx

[HighlanderAttack]

My Post

Yes-I would say you need to go into all my tourneys to see the different formats and the amount of creativity I have put into my tourneys.

I just went through the list of finished tournaments in the Hall of Fame they might as well all be the same, there were only a few tournaments that were *different*

So what if I have multiple tourneys with the same concept. I have spent 100's of hours running these and I make every effort to include everyone in them including freemiums. I also could solicit my small tourneys and have them filled in 10 minutes but I don't do that so others have a chance to get into them. A lot of you don't have a clue how much time and effort are put into these tourneys and the system involved:

This is really a null statement that has little to do with my post so I've snippidy snipped it.

You may get a picture of why I do post so many tourneys at once. It is part of the system that makes them run so smoothly. If I had to do all these things one or two at a time and do it over and over again it would slow the entire process down. I am about efficiency.

Too right you are about efficiency and you are definitely helping the enviroment with all the recycling you seem to be doing

I can ramble on and on about so many of the things that have been said in this thread to day, but I know it would be a waste of time. Some of you will have your thoughts and really never have a clue what it takes to run a tourney let alone the amount of time and dedication put into it weather it is simpler or extensive.

Extensive tournaments require more work, which is why I'd put Amazzony as one of the best organisers, she doesn't just have the multitude she has variety

I know I have a ton of players that love my tourneys and appreciate my efforts. For them I will continue to post and run tourneys. For some of you, I must say join the tourneys you want to and don't be so damn lazy about sifting through 1.5 to 2.5 pages of tourneys.

I think people have a right to be annoyed when they see the only options being between 3 or 4 organizers and most of them running the same thing anyway with the map being the only difference.

Your "Don't Blink" series is essentially on massive tournament broken up into 140ish little pieces. Each one has the exact same rules and the exact same settings and the exact same number of people involved. So why not do something along the lines of having 1 tournament that incorporates all of those mini pieces into one? Have 500+ people sign up for one giant tourney rather than 500+ people sign up for 140 smaller ones?

I agree with whoever made this post. Amazzony made a massive bracket tournament (Olympics) She made probably as many games as you have in both of your "All around CC's maps" and the "don't blink" series with only one blanket tournament.

HA, don't treat this as me attacking you, or your tournaments I agree that they take work, just to re-use what Amazonny said, if they take 1 or 2 days to fill why not wait till the third day to make more tournaments?

You have no clue how much is involved in many of my tourneys. Your bull shit that comes when you type amazes me. Until you can take the time and go through all of my tourneys and see the different concepts just stfu. I am over you. The AACM has many different formats for example and all you do is spend time grouping them as the same tourney. The Don't Blink is a new concept of quick hitting tourneys that many people enjoy. I am done with this BS. I will wait and see what comes out of it, but honestly you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Moya]

The search function has to have more functionality for tournaments. If you can search open tournaments for different playing styles (e.g. small 1v1 tourneys, leagues, etc.) and enter them through the search function the problem is solved.

[PaulusH]

The search function has to have more functionality for tournaments. If you can search open tournaments for different playing styles (e.g. small 1v1 tourneys, leagues, etc.) and enter them through the search function the problem is solved.

Nice idea
I would like to find the none-standard tournaments, how do I have to filter
In my personal definition all tournaments with only 1v1; one team v one team (1tv1t); standard brackets; leagues; ladders; etc are considered as standard. A real competition might be interesting as long as it is not 1v1 or 1tv1t.

[Teflon Kris]

Hmm - here's an idea, may sound good but could be tricky:

Re-organise the forum to have several sign-up forums.

For example:

Create/Join a 1 v 1 Tournament
Create / Join a Team's Tournament
Create / Join a Multi-Player Singles Tournament
Create / Join an Assassin / Terminator Tournament

Hopefully, TOs would post in the right forum and mods wouldn't need to move them about very often.

Another idea: Sticky tournaments so that each TO can only have one stickied tournament waiting for sign-ups each

[Moya]

A forum as by it's name is made for conversation and discussion and not for organizing things. So keep the talking in the forums and the organizing for the technical engineers as in our programmers. Make joining a game easier by reinventing the game search function.

[Woodruff]

I wouldn't mind seeing create/join tournaments sorted by team, 1v1 and the rest, either with their own subforum

Unless there is some limitation by the forum software, I really don't see why tournaments couldn't be organized by subforum.

[slipknot_rock]

this sucks me and my mate were in our first tournament and because of people complaining it got cancelled just don't join a tournament if u don't want to look at the poll most people have said no people don't make too manybb

[Bones2484]

this sucks me and my mate were in our first tournament and because people complaining it got cancelled just don't join a tournament if u don't want to look at the poll most people have said no people don't make too manybb

I appreciate your feedback and amazing contribution to this thread.

Maybe next time before you hit that "Submit" button you'll realize that the tournament was canceled because of the TO, not because of this thread.

I'd also recommend taking some basic classes on how to read as I'm seeing that the poll says more people have some concern with tournaments as opposed to having no issue.

Enjoy your warning from the mods.

[b00060]

No Bones, he is right, I canceled the tournaments because of your thread. It made me realize that the majority of the people on CC, according to your poll, do not appreciate the time that I donated to this site and as such, I have elected to spend it actually playing games with people that are here for fun and not to nitpick every little detail that doesn't suit them. I apologize to anyone who enjoyed my tournamnets and is impacted by my decision and hope that you would still invite me to enjoy a casual game.