The isreal/palestine debate

Dekloren · Post by **Dekloren** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:33 pm

From Bible times, ~2000 years ago.

No Israel.

Just appered out of nowhere.

Like they....Just decided to all flow in that one spot and....Steal their land!

Colossus · Post by **Colossus** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:48 pm

Deklorean, you're an idiot. The God of Abraham, Yahweh, arose from a tribal sun god in Mesopotamia over 4000 years ago. The nation of Israel grew out of this tribal faith and migrated to the land of Canaan sometime between 2000 BCE and 1250 BCE. Escape from the slavery of egypt and subsequent conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan occurred between 1250 BCE and 1000 BCE. The era of kings (David, Saul, that whole crowd) was from 1000 BCE to 587/6 BCE, during which time the Jews BUILT Jerusalem. Do you think that maybe the lack of a Jewish nation called Israel ~2000 years ago, might have a little something to do with the fact that the ROMANS conquered the holy land in 70 BCE?!?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:53 pm

Colossus wrote:Deklorean, you're an idiot. The God of Abraham, Yahweh, arose from a tribal sun god in Mesopotamia over 4000 years ago. The nation of Israel grew out of this tribal faith and migrated to the land of Canaan sometime between 2000 BCE and 1250 BCE. Escape from the slavery of egypt and subsequent conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan occurred between 1250 BCE and 1000 BCE. The era of kings (David, Saul, that whole crowd) was from 1000 BCE to 587/6 BCE, during which time the Jews BUILT Jerusalem. Do you think that maybe the lack of a Jewish nation called Israel ~2000 years ago, might have a little something to do with the fact that the ROMANS conquered the holy land in 70 BCE?!?

Glad you pointed it out, I just began to with a lot more swearing. I am in no way a fan of Israel in its current state, but Dekloren you are entirely detached from reality.

Colossus · Post by **Colossus** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:59 pm

Glad to save you the trouble, buddy. I had to resist extensive profanity, myself.

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:08 pm

You guys should leave that to me, anyway.

Frigidus · Post by **Frigidus** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:32 pm

Colossus wrote:Deklorean, you're an idiot. The God of Abraham, Yahweh, arose from a tribal sun god in Mesopotamia over 4000 years ago. The nation of Israel grew out of this tribal faith and migrated to the land of Canaan sometime between 2000 BCE and 1250 BCE. Escape from the slavery of egypt and subsequent conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan occurred between 1250 BCE and 1000 BCE. The era of kings (David, Saul, that whole crowd) was from 1000 BCE to 587/6 BCE, during which time the Jews BUILT Jerusalem. Do you think that maybe the lack of a Jewish nation called Israel ~2000 years ago, might have a little something to do with the fact that the ROMANS conquered the holy land in 70 BCE?!?

Besides, location is such an arbitrary idea. We all originated from Central Africa so why don't we all just move back there? Pretty much the same idea.

Dekloren · Post by **Dekloren** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:35 pm

lol.

People only mysteriously began popping up in one place?

You have a link or something I can read about and learn?

Israel doesn't exist~

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:37 pm

Dekloren wrote:lol.

People only mysteriously began popping up in one place?

You have a link or something I can read about and learn?

Mysterious...

Frigidus · Post by **Frigidus** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:38 pm

Dekloren wrote:lol.

People only mysteriously began popping up in one place?

You have a link or something I can read about and learn?

Israel doesn't exist~

Er...yah. Evolution is, by nature, a localized process. Anything outside of our initial roaming grounds is nothing more than where our various migrations led us.

LYR · Post by **LYR** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:26 pm

Hmmmmmmmmm. I was asked to convince somebody that the state of Israel should exist, so here:

There was once a man called Theodore Herzl, and he witnessed the Dreyfus affair (Dreyfus being a colonel in the French army), when the French lost to the Prussians in the Franco-Prussian war, the French needed someone to blame, so they decided to blame Dreyfus (a Jew). Herzl (a non-Jew), saw the need for a Jewish state, and thought that the only reason for Jewish persecution for those thousands of years was that Jews were a minority everywhere (this was before the holocaust, but you can still include the crusades, progroms, blood libels, destruction of second temple, ect, etc........... Just for the record, Herzl died in 1904, 44 years before the creation of the state of Israel). So he created the first Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland, to try and make a state for the Jews (if Herzl had had his way, this place might now be Uganda, but no matter).

So if you're telling me that the Jews don't deserve to have a state of their own, after millions of them being killed before the holocaust (due to religious persecution), and that some 6 million during the holocaust, then I have nothing to say to you.

suggs · Post by **suggs** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:35 pm

Guiscard wrote:
Colossus wrote:Deklorean, you're an idiot. The God of Abraham, Yahweh, arose from a tribal sun god in Mesopotamia over 4000 years ago. The nation of Israel grew out of this tribal faith and migrated to the land of Canaan sometime between 2000 BCE and 1250 BCE. Escape from the slavery of egypt and subsequent conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan occurred between 1250 BCE and 1000 BCE. The era of kings (David, Saul, that whole crowd) was from 1000 BCE to 587/6 BCE, during which time the Jews BUILT Jerusalem. Do you think that maybe the lack of a Jewish nation called Israel ~2000 years ago, might have a little something to do with the fact that the ROMANS conquered the holy land in 70 BCE?!?
Glad you pointed it out, I just began to with a lot more swearing. I am in no way a fan of Israel in its current state, but Dekloren you are entirely detached from reality.

So you think the Gauls have a claim to Rome then, because they conquered Rome c400 BC?
Of course not. The Jews have no more right to that land than do the Brits in India.

greenoaks · Post by **greenoaks** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:58 pm

weren't the gauls germanic tribes who conquered france.

so we should tell the french to go home, to germany.

Napoleon Ier · Post by **Napoleon Ier** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:52 pm

greenoaks wrote:weren't the gauls germanic tribes who conquered france.

so we should tell the french to go home, to germany.

what,me worry? · Post by **what,me worry?** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:10 pm

Of course there should be an Israel. Those who thought there shouldnt lost the war and Israel made the mistake of giving them the land God gave them. MISTAKE

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:44 pm

greenoaks wrote:weren't the gauls germanic tribes who conquered france.

so we should tell the french to go home, to germany.

Wait, is that a question or a statement? The gauls were the first people there, you're thinking of celts. They lived there too. The point is that the gauls are France's Indians / Native Americans.

Colossus · Post by **Colossus** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:48 pm

There's a subtle difference, in my opinion, suggs, in that the Jews built civilization in that part of the world. That has been their ancestral land since they were a tribal people. They never conquered Jerusalem...they BUILT it. And they were there for centuries. The land of Judah, particularly Jerusalem, is to Judaism as Cairo and the Nile basin are to Egyptians, as the Huang river valley and Beijing is to Chinese civilization, as Athens and the rest of Greece are to the Greeks. All are civilizations of similar age who have had their primary existence in that place for millenia. The Jews may have been displaced more than the others, but they have always had the land of Judah as their ancestral home. Whether this gives them claim to a nation today, I don't really know, but Deklorean's assertion that there was no Israel in his stupid-ass 'Bible times map' and that the absence of said old Israel gave the Jews no claim was bullshit. That's what I was pointing out. There is no arguing the history of that part of the world and the Jews claim to it as their ancestral homeland.

itiq · Post by **itiq** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:06 am

spurgistan wrote:It says "New Testament Period" on the map. Which is, oddly, about the last time before Israel that a Jewish state (Judea - guess what that means) existed.

If you conquer a culture or a land mass, when is it fair for anyone to take more than what you didn't have?

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:14 am

suggs wrote:
Guiscard wrote:
Colossus wrote:Deklorean, you're an idiot. The God of Abraham, Yahweh, arose from a tribal sun god in Mesopotamia over 4000 years ago. The nation of Israel grew out of this tribal faith and migrated to the land of Canaan sometime between 2000 BCE and 1250 BCE. Escape from the slavery of egypt and subsequent conquest and settlement of the land of Canaan occurred between 1250 BCE and 1000 BCE. The era of kings (David, Saul, that whole crowd) was from 1000 BCE to 587/6 BCE, during which time the Jews BUILT Jerusalem. Do you think that maybe the lack of a Jewish nation called Israel ~2000 years ago, might have a little something to do with the fact that the ROMANS conquered the holy land in 70 BCE?!?
Glad you pointed it out, I just began to with a lot more swearing. I am in no way a fan of Israel in its current state, but Dekloren you are entirely detached from reality.
So you think the Gauls have a claim to Rome then, because they conquered Rome c400 BC?
Of course not. The Jews have no more right to that land than do the Brits in India.

No, of course not, and the Jews have no 'legal' right to the land either. I was responding to the claim by Dekloran that a historical Israel never existed.

Napoleon Ier · Post by **Napoleon Ier** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:41 am

unriggable wrote:
greenoaks wrote:weren't the gauls germanic tribes who conquered france.

so we should tell the french to go home, to germany.
Wait, is that a question or a statement? The gauls were the first people there, you're thinking of celts. They lived there too. The point is that the gauls are France's Indians / Native Americans.

No, you're both mixed up. You're thinking of the Franks, who represent roughly 0.5% of our gene pool. France is still very much Gallic.

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:37 am

Napoleon Ier wrote:
unriggable wrote:
greenoaks wrote:weren't the gauls germanic tribes who conquered france.

so we should tell the french to go home, to germany.
Wait, is that a question or a statement? The gauls were the first people there, you're thinking of celts. They lived there too. The point is that the gauls are France's Indians / Native Americans.
No, you're both mixed up. You're thinking of the Franks, who represent roughly 0.5% of our gene pool. France is still very much Gallic.

Dancing Mustard · Post by **Dancing Mustard** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:05 am

Napoleon Ier wrote:No, you're both mixed up. You're thinking of the Franks, who represent roughly 0.5% of our gene pool. France is still very much Gay.

Well you've certainly succeded in convincing me...

Frigidus · Post by **Frigidus** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:19 am

Dancing Mustard wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:No, you're both mixed up. You're thinking of the Franks, who represent roughly 0.5% of our gene pool. France is still very much Gay.
Well you've certainly succeded in convincing me...

Heeeeeey-ooooooo!

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:41 am

I spent a year or so in Israel back in my tadpole days , they are a prickly people but I really admired their spirit and the holecaust museum is a terrible testimony to the suffering of the Jews. What most people dont realise is that they are not a nation of religious zealots by any means , there are probably more orthodox Jews in New York, and the majority are happy to live side by side with the Palestinians. What they do have is a determination that they will no longer turn the other cheek,as Jews have done for so many centuries, when they get hit they hit back hard and dont really care what the rest of the world thinks. They have shown in the past, as with Egypt and Jordan, that they are quite prepared to make concessions provided their security is not threatened, they are quite prepared to live in peace if only their neighbours would let them.
Anyhow thats the conclusion I came to in the time I lived there and trust me I have no particular reason to defend them - In actual fact I have a lifetime ban from every Kibbutz and Moshav in the land and was told in no uncertain terms to bugger off out of the country and not come back

Napoleon Ier · Post by **Napoleon Ier** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:52 am

Dancing Mustard wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:No, you're both mixed up. You're thinking of the Franks, who represent roughly 0.5% of our gene pool. France is still very much Gay.
Well you've certainly succeded in convincing me...

Remind me again of your age Mustard?

Frigidus · Post by **Frigidus** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:53 am

Napoleon Ier wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:No, you're both mixed up. You're thinking of the Franks, who represent roughly 0.5% of our gene pool. France is still very much Gay.
Well you've certainly succeded in convincing me...
Remind me again of your age Mustard?

Doesn't he claim he's 14?

The isreal/palestine debate

should there be a isreal?