Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

[mikersj]

I think the 005 protecting the warden should stay at 5 neutral or at least 4. The guards are supposed to protect the warden, if they start out weaker than the prisoners, how fun is that? I think having a 4 or 5 in 005 means that individual gangs would need to work together to take out the warden. I think this will be the standard response once somebody has the warden. If the only help is a neutral 2 guard, then there is no help from the guards and the player who takes the warden is alone. In a 1v1 game, the player who isn't the warden, will have enough armies just with the number of territories to break down a 5 neutral.

I also think that the weapons in the central yard and the general population should start out as 2. Otherwise, the cost is too great in going for the weapon. If you think that you will lose 4 armies taking out the 4 neutrals, then you would need at least 4 armies to protect the weapon and then keeping 3 armies on the guy that took the weapon - that is 11 armies needed to get 1 army bonus. This is two turns worth of reinforcements at the start of a 5 person game. If you drop the weapons down to 2 neutrals, then you only need 2 armies lost 2 armies to hold and the original 3 for a total of 7. This is just 1 round of reinforcements. I think we would see a lot more fighting in the open areas for the weapons if they started off with 2 neutrals. Also, it gives another strategy play. While one player is getting a boss and building up the game. One player is collecting up the weapons and getting a similar bonus. With the weapons starting at 4, it takes twice as long to collect up the weapons as it does to build up a gang.

[mibi]

I think the 005 protecting the warden should stay at 5 neutral or at least 4. The guards are supposed to protect the warden, if they start out weaker than the prisoners, how fun is that? I think having a 4 or 5 in 005 means that individual gangs would need to work together to take out the warden. I think this will be the standard response once somebody has the warden. If the only help is a neutral 2 guard, then there is no help from the guards and the player who takes the warden is alone. In a 1v1 game, the player who isn't the warden, will have enough armies just with the number of territories to break down a 5 neutral.

I also think that the weapons in the central yard and the general population should start out as 2. Otherwise, the cost is too great in going for the weapon. If you think that you will lose 4 armies taking out the 4 neutrals, then you would need at least 4 armies to protect the weapon and then keeping 3 armies on the guy that took the weapon - that is 11 armies needed to get 1 army bonus. This is two turns worth of reinforcements at the start of a 5 person game. If you drop the weapons down to 2 neutrals, then you only need 2 armies lost 2 armies to hold and the original 3 for a total of 7. This is just 1 round of reinforcements. I think we would see a lot more fighting in the open areas for the weapons if they started off with 2 neutrals. Also, it gives another strategy play. While one player is getting a boss and building up the game. One player is collecting up the weapons and getting a similar bonus. With the weapons starting at 4, it takes twice as long to collect up the weapons as it does to build up a gang.

I agree on both counts, I will put in the changes next week.

[Incandenza]

I strongly disagree with mikersj about Guard 005. Conceptual real life considerations aside, having so many neutrals between the yard and the bombarding guards only discourages the use of this strategically useful element, to the map's ultimate detriment. In larger games it's one thing, but for small games and 1v1s, that extra dice roll or two against 2 defender dice can be pretty damn important. I would argue that gameplay considerations would suggest a 2 (maybe a 3) for 005. If taking the warden is a big consideration (which wouldn't even be all that useful for someone who doesn't have a consolidated cellblock, or at least a bunch of guards that he's picked off), maybe bump his number up to 10, and lower 001 to a 2 as well. More armies required to take the warden from either side, but fewer armies required to move thru Administration (thus bringing the yard and the guys outside the gate closer together) and secure the bombarding guards.

mibi, I see your point about neutral gang leaders essentially handing said leader to one player. Could possibly an argument be made then to turn the pair o' guards outside each cellblock leader's cell (and maybe the pair o' guards immediately downstream) being turned into 2's, to bring the gang leaders into play a bit more? That way as many as six different prisoners is only 2 twos away from a gang leader, allowing for more conflict. You could even turn the main pair into ones and the adjacent pair into twos... but that might be a bit much, I dunno.

[mikersj]

Let me clarify my point about guard 005...
I wouldn't imagine that the warden would be taken from the inner yard. There would be too much fighting following the first person in through 005.
From the outer yard it will take about 5 rounds to get the warden, more if there is a fight in the outer yard. In round 1, consolidate your boss if you have one. In round 2, fight in the outer yard. Round 3 finish the outer yard. Round 4 get to the hall and round 5 take the warden.
At this point a player has fought through the 4n at 001 an the 5n at the warden. Other players have built up their gang and are getting +4 bonus. The player who takes the warden is only getting +1 for the warden and 001. At this point cards are being turned in and a weak 005 would leave the warden vulnerable.
The player who took the warden kill a 4n and a 5n it wouldn't be fair for a player from the yard to just walk through the weak 005 guard and take out the warden.
The player with the warden can get 2 weapons and 2 more guards plus the gas chamber for a +9 total bonus in 3-4 more turn. The race is on for the gangs to get to their +8 bonus. If the warden takes the gas chamber, there is a big risk, so the warden needs a lot of defense. Two gangs working together could easily break through the 5n at 005. The bombardment would be used to defend the warden from the gangs in the yard.
If the 005 guard is a 2n or 3n, then taking the gas chamber is too risky. There wouldn't be time to build up a defense around the warden. Without the gas chamber, he +9 bonus becomes a +4 bonus and the above strategy is not fruitful. By the time the warden is getting +4, the gang leaders are getting +8 and the warden is falling behind.

[Klaste]

I actually just fortified my yard drops onto one army, punched through 005, and took it from there.. card bonuses helping. It would be a far different strategy without cards, and without unlimited fortification.. I should probably try a game with those options.

Anyways, random idea, since someone said The Hole is almost never used... What if you instead split up The Hole into two cells annexed onto the back/side of each prison block? I'm not completely sure how this would effect gameplay, but I'm just trying to think outside the box here.

[yeti_c]

The hole is never used because it's too far away from the Warden - the only person that can get proper bonus from it... (Gangs can get 1 member out of there to complete their gang - but it's very rare for anyone to completely unite their gang)

Perhaps consider adding an entrance to the Hole from Guard 002? - this would also have the added "benefit" of giving a second entrance to the warden that other people are asking for?

C.

[mikersj]

How about adding a door between 602 and the gas chamber, you may have to make the gas chamber bonus +2/-2 to make it easier for an attacker to get from the gas chamber to the warden.

[mibi]

Ok here are my official change requests

1. The weapons in the yards have been changed to 2 neutrals to four to encourage their use as currently they are not worth the risk.
2. There is a door from guard 602 to guard 002. This is don't to provide a second exit to the warden/guard area. This will also encourage the use of the hole which is almost never used.
3. Guard 601 has been changed to 2 from 3 to encourage hole usage.
4. Guard 602 has been changed to 3 from 4 to encourage hole usage.
5. The Blade in the gen pop has been reduced from 4 to 3 to encourage earlier use.
6. The gas chamber has been changed from 6 to 5 to encourage use.

The main reason for these changes is to encourage the use of some un used elements and liven up the play a bit.

Click image to enlarge.

[CunningImp]

While playing this board, I see a major problem with the balance of gameplay in the General Population area. If a person is able to capture and hold the three New Fish and Big Smoke (and his gang members), they can pretty much control the game from that point forward due to the amount of bonus armies.

There needs to be some decentralization of this area. Also, there needs to be another way into the area so there isn't a "choke point" at the doorway. Maybe there should be an "escape" tunnel from the right side of the general population to either outside the fence (attackable by the inmates outside the front) or the yard (attackable from the yard).

Perhaps another way to balance gameplay within the cell blocks is maybe to make a bonus for having all the guards within a cell block. This would give the player a reason to expand within the cell block, rather than just looking for "gang members".

[BaldAdonis]

2. There is a door from guard 602 to guard 002. This is don't to provide a second exit to the warden/guard area. This will also encourage the use of the hole which is almost never used.

Thanks for that. It always seemed like a natural connection that was shut for some reason.

[Klaste]

As for The Hole.. it would be interesting to encourage players to try to use it even if they don't have the warden, just to raise the possibility of taking advantage of the penalties there. What if you could receive the bonus for armies in The Hole with the warden and/or 602? I realize you might want to see how your last change effected things (nice patch by the way), but just throwing in one more idea to sweeten the deal. Maybe even the roles of warden and 602 should be reversed for the purpose of The Hole - having the warden denies the penalty, but you gotta have 602 to get the bonus..

Also, just to note, I'm actually using the hole in my current game, even without that door (#3196120), and another player even took two of the armies to deny my bonus and increase his gang bonus.. to be honest, I don't think that was a very good idea of his (all I did was retake it and how he has a -2 penalty..), but the point I'm making here was that all it took to involve The Hole was for someone to initially take it, then it became important to everyone else.

Also, seriously, to reiterate... I would absolutely love to see a zombie mall survival map (a la Dawn of the Dead) made in this style.

[LPSanta]

Just an observation, have only played through three times (8 player games-- quads and standard singles). However with so many players, both times the map was won in the same way, and neither was due to the accumulation of gangs under their leaders.

The outside area behind the warden (Manuel, Dwayne, Koji, et cetera) was instead the key to winning. Any player or team who took these six outside spots, and went past the first guard (001) had free rein to take all the "1" neutral territories (lounge, visitors, etc.), resulting in a simple territory bonus. Then stack on 005 using this bonus to deny entry, and once warden is taken, the game is essentially won, even without gas chamber. By the time Warden is secure, the Hole was irrelevant. I'm also unsure of the utility of bombing. If you go to the trouble of securing those guards, you probably have secured 005 already... and if you can stack on 005 and attack directly, you gain real territory (and their bonuses), which is much better than bombarding to down to neutral.

Also, with so many players with the same access, and so little bonus, the weapons are not worth going for; you'll simply be depleted and vulnerable when it is much more profitable to go for new fish (in both teams or standard play).

Suggestions:
What might balance the play would be stronger or earlier bonuses for building gangs, and possibly a smaller bonus for new fish (the new fish bonus seems to dominate the early part of large games), or removing new fish bonuses altogether or allowing 2 new fish to be equivalent to 1 member of any gang where you hold the leader. A larger +2 bonus for the weapons in the yard and general population would encourage use. Also, completely eliminating the territories/prisoners outside the warden area at bottom left (Manuel, Dwayne, Koji, et cetera) would force more play in the yards, and jostling for gang members and weapons. BTW I really like the play in the general population area at bottom right but there was a good point in this thread that taking new fish and big smoke there could decide the game-- making play there more strategic in gen population would be nice because right now you can attack all of the rooms from the hallway-- two possible solutions are to: 1) swap a neutral "hallway" for the big rooms (lo pan/jose/alan and/or big ed/reiki) , or 2) add room subdivisions to some cell areas (a room between rj/arnie, tyrone/paulie, etc.)


Granted I have only played many-player games with no cards, and have only played a few times, but wanted to drop my input because I really love this map.

[Crissipos]

At first I liked this map a lot, but my thought is changing
I just played this 1v1, and the drops were totally not equal, the other player had a lot more to deploy.. I think this has to be changed in some way, more equal drops

another thing, I'm 100% sure I had 6 latin kings, and still it says I had 4, thus giving me only a bonus of 1
as you can see below on the map, I had 6 latin king territories, when you count them
the stats tell me I have 4?

[LPSanta]

another thing, I'm 100% sure I had 6 latin kings, and still it says I had 4, thus giving me only a bonus of 1

I don't think the leader (el burro) counts, but other than him, you have five right? That's still a bug (it said 4 when you had 5 by my count): 1) Diablo 2) Tomas 3) Loco 4) Pollo 5) Manuel.

[mibi]

oi,

The legend clearly states, "Hole the gang leader AND 6 members"

So, the gang leader, 1 and 6 other members is 7 members. You held the gang leader and 5 others.

[Jiron7]

I think the bonuses need to be toned down a little, I was playing and by the end I had won with 350+ armies on one territory unused. Other than the unnecessarily large bonuses once you really got rolling (Snowball effect, really. Once I got control of about two or three cell blocks, I had so many armies that I just another cell block every turn.), the map is very fun. And I didn't really mind the bonus issues, but it probably bugged my opponents.

[samuelc812]

I don't think they should i for one like playing with large amounts of armies

[mibi]

Ok here are my official change requests

1. The weapons in the yards have been changed to 2 neutrals to four to encourage their use as currently they are not worth the risk.
2. There is a door from guard 602 to guard 002. This is don't to provide a second exit to the warden/guard area. This will also encourage the use of the hole which is almost never used.
3. Guard 601 has been changed to 2 from 3 to encourage hole usage.
4. Guard 602 has been changed to 3 from 4 to encourage hole usage.
5. The Blade in the gen pop has been reduced from 4 to 3 to encourage earlier use.
6. The gas chamber has been changed from 6 to 5 to encourage use.

The main reason for these changes is to encourage the use of some un used elements and liven up the play a bit.

Click image to enlarge.

so like... what needs to get done to get these changes in? yeti? andy? lack? Bueller?

[yeti_c]

Ya - I need to change some XML - I'll get on it shortly.

C.

[Ogrecrusher]

How do the changes affect matches currently in play?

[yeti_c]

How do the changes affect matches currently in play?

Neutral values won't affect anything - new connections will be opened up.

C.

[e_i_pi]

Great map, I've been playing it a bit recently. Which leads me to an observation. A fair few circles aren't centered (on the small map). I understand that it's difficult to centre exactly properly, as the small map is anti-aliased, but some of these are obviously out.

Outside
Dominik

Cell Block D
Joey (compared to Karl)
Ricky (compared to Roy)

Cell Block C
Ted

Cell Block B
General Hong

Yard
Hammer
Ace
Jin

[waseemalim]

I would suggest increasing the warden + gas chamber bonus to +8 and keep gashamber - warden at -5.

Reason: It just isnt worth it as it stands.

[Incandenza]

I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...

[GenuineEarlGrey]

Thanks for this map... its a lot of fun to play.

After a one 1v1 game on it, I'm guessing that it would be better with more players.

The was one bit when my opponent and I got confused. From the map we thought holding a whole gang won you the game!