Unofficial Clan Ladder - Updated May 17th-2009

[jpcloet]

Some of you may have seen the Clan Director's post around the future of clans on CC. One of the key messages is that some "unofficial" things could be done by the group here and I'm going to start another "unofficial" clan item. I've been asked to run another league and also another tournament, however there are limitations to both so I will avoid them for now. Please continue to post your clan's challenge results on that thread (final score needed) and I will update the ladder.

Using MarVal's thread on challenges that have been completed, and a number of other challenges that I'm aware of (Teams Doubles League), I've compiled the unofficial clan ladder rankings using the ELO system used for chess using all the statistical data I could find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

I'm not going to publish the actual ranking values as the gathering and calculation of information took a lot of work. The ELO system has been praised for it's simplicity and ease of use, but there are few things to note. We don't have that many challenges to build up enough tangible data so many of the clans listed below are very close in their rankings. It will take time and a number of challenges to build up your score. It's also important to have the ability to draw in a challenge so a recommendation will be made soon as to a recommended (but not mandated) challenge structure that is scalable to a larger size if the clans so choose. Standardization of challenges may or may not be built into the new structure, but ideally for comparative purposes, would be my recommendation.

Using challenges only with 20 or more games (TDL was 16 games so they are all out)

RANK---Clan Name---Points---Wins-Losses---Win%
1 Legends of War 112.32 Points 119-72 62%
2 THOTA 111.27 Points 190-112 63%
3 EMPIRE 107.56 Points 100-71 58%
4 Sky Force 106.09 Points 132-123 52%
5 ++The Legion++ 105.43 Points 148-135 52%
6 Agents Of Chaos 102.25 Points 13-7 65%
7 The Spanking Monkeys 101.96 Points 56-44 56%
8 Left4Dead 101.93 Points 20-12 63%
9 Immortal Assassins 101.83 Points 54-46 54%
10 Legion of The Damned 101.48 Points 104-110 49%
11 Dark Defenders 101.2 Points 23-17 58%
12 Nemesis 101.2 Points 23-17 58%
13 De Veroveraars der Lage Landen 101.12 Points 52-49 51%
14 Bullet Proof Bandits 100.41 Points 21-19 53%
15 Order of Odin 100.08 Points 20-20 50%
16 Imperial Dragoons 100.01 Points 100-100 50%
17 Eternal Empire 99.88 Points 23-27 46%
18 Mythology 99.19 Points 56-61 48%
19 Black Sheep Squadron 98.98 Points 71-77 48%
20 Death By Comity 98.87 Points 17-23 43%
21 Imperial Britain 98.84 Points 56-62 47%
22 Generation One: The Clan 98.49 Points 101-124 45%
23 Bounty Hunters 98.22 Points 6-14 30%
24 Soldiers of War 96.75 Points 7-15 32%
25 The Bushwhakers 96.28 Points 11-31 26%
26 The Regulators 95.96 Points 86-119 42%
27 Project Enigma 94.83 Points 5-25 17%
28 The Last Warriors 94.82 Points 18-34 35%
29 Warlords of the Wort 94.82 Points 59-76 44%
30 Freemium Forces 93.6 Points 13-33 28%
31 Water's Fury 91.35 Points 9-31 23%

Using the results:
Legends of War 24 Sky Force 13
THOTA 31 The Bushwhakers 11
THOTA 24 Knights of the Empire 16
Mythology 15 Generation One: The Clan 22
Generation One: The Clan 10 De Veroveraars der Lage Landen 11
The Untouchables 22 The Regulators 14
Imperial Dragoons 47 THOTA 53
EMPIRE 16 ++The Legion++ 15
The Untouchables 25 ++The Legion++ 14
Generation One: The Clan 23 Legion of The Damned 22
Generation One: The Clan 19 THOTA 41
Legends of War 26 The Spanking Monkeys 34
Sky Force 13 The Regulators 26
The Warlords of the Wort 11 ++The Legion++ 10
Generation One: The Clan 15 Freemium Forces 7
The Untouchables 25 De Veroveraars der Lage Landen 15
Legion of The Damned 23 Imperial Dragoons 37
Legion of The Damned 13 The Warlords of the Wort 11
THOTA 41 The Regulators 19
Marvel/DC Heroes 14 ++The Legion++ 26
Legion of The Damned 9 Immortal Assassins 11
Legion of The Damned 14 The Last Warriors 6
The Regulators 12 The Warlords of the Wort 18
Sky Force 33 ++The Legion++ 27
The Untouchables 8 Legends of War 16
Mythology 24 Marvel/DC Heroes 16
Black Sheep Squadron 15 Sky Force 15
EMPIRE 24 Imperial Dragoons 16
Dark Defenders 23 Death By Comity 17
Soldiers of War 7 ++The Legion++ 15
Sky Force 18 Freemium Forces 6
Eternal Empire 23 ++The Legion++ 27
Mythology 17 Nemesis 23
Bounty Hunters 6 ++The Legion++ 14
Imperial Britain 20 Black Sheep Squadron 18
Imperial Britain 20 Order of Odin 20
Generation One: The Clan 12 Legends of War 28
The Regulators 15 Immortal Assassins 25
Black Sheep Squadron 19 Bullet Proof Bandits 21
Sky Force 18 Water's Fury 2
De Veroveraars der Lage Landen 26 Warlords of Wort 14
EMPIRE 24 Imperial Britain 16
Water's Fury 7 Agents of Chaos 13
EMPIRE 15 Warlords of the Wort 5
Legion of The Damned 23 Sky Force 22
EMPIRE 21 Black Sheep Squadron 19
Left4Dead 20 The Last Warriors 12
Legends of War 25 Project Enigma 5
Immortal Assassins 18 The Spanking Monkeys 22

I've also been asked to push the idea of the 1 competitive clan rule that many of the upper class of clans have adhered to. It will be a requirement for the new system, so to all the clan leaders, please review your clan roster and clean up your membership. Players need to choose their loyalty and I would use the above list as a guideline/reference for the 1 competitive rule. If your clan is interested in helping move clans forward and would like to add your input, please apply to the CLA. Once you have met the 3 requirements to join, I'll add you to that group along with one other member of your clan.

[jpcloet]

Reserved for Q&A:

Who's in the CLA and who follows the 1 competitive clan rule?

Clan Directors(2)
Tournament Director(1)
Black Sheep Squadron
De Veroveraars der Lage Landen
Generation One: The Clan
EMPIRE
Immortal Assassins
Imperial Britain
Legends of War
Legion of the Damned (LoD)
Marvel/DC Heroes
Mythology
Nemesis
Sky Force
The Last Warriors
The Regulators
The Horsemen of the Apocalypse (THOTA)
The Imperial Dragoons
++The Legion++
The Spanking Monkeys
The Warlords of Wort

Can my clan join the CLA?

Absolutely, if your clan meets the admissions criteria, 2 members of your clan can join and represent your clan in the discussions.

How does ELO work?

Read the wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system and I'm calculating using clans starting with 1000 points and a K-factor of 16.

Eg. Each clan starts with 1000 pts. From there they play a challenge and the expected result would be an 8-8 draw based on their points.

E(A) = 1/(1+10^((1000-1000)/400)) = 0.5
E(B) = 1/(1+10^((1000-1000)/400)) = 0.5

Let us say that Clan A beats Clan B 12-8. (60%, 40%) Clan A's points are now 1,001.60 and Clan B's points are now 998.40

Points(A) = 1000 + 16*(0.6-0.5) = 1,001.60
Points(B) = 1000 + 16*(0.4-0.5) = 998.40

Now consider a bigger gap in points (say 2 years from now) Clan A has 1500 points and Clan B has 750 points. These clans would be on opposite ends of the ladder and would not likely face, however in ELO theory:

E(A) = 1/(1+10^((1500-750)/400)) = 0.99
E(B) = 1/(1+10^((750-1500)/400)) = 0.01

That would mean Clan A would be expected to win all the games of the challenge. Say Clan A wins 18 of 20 games (90%).

Points(A) = 1500 + 16*(0.90-0.99) = 1,498.61
Points(B) = 750 + 16*(0.10-0.01) = 751.39

Clan A would actually lose points if they did not cover the expected outcome.

My learnings so far with ELO:

1. You gotta win or at least cover the expected outcome
2. The ELO system rewards you for destroying an opponent, unless you were expected to
3. There is a point where you won't be able to inflate your score anymore and will end up at your optimal rating level.
4. In the initial phase, a clan like THOTA can destroy a clan like the U18, and jump up the ladder very quick, eventually they will then only want to play clans within the next 10 rungs or so, which is the point of a ladder, most sites also have a scheduler for their ladder so that clans face different opponents and have some variety.
5. In thinking about he size of challenges, smaller is better. Battle more often! Eg. A 20 game challenge is a good size, however, you could have a large 60 game challenge which is made up of 3*20 game challenges with each counting as a separate challenge entry in ELO.
6. ELO in theory will take all clans to a "steady state", but it requires a significant amount of challenges and time and could easily last several years or even longer on the CC site. With more and more clans, a ladder like this could go on for 10+ years. Chess has been using the ELO since 1960.

Why is my clan ranked lower than a clan we just beat?

ELO is a points system, not a "leap-frog" system. There are other ladder systems like the "point-accrual" system which is a leap frog with a point reward to the loser based on how well they performed. The leap-frog and point accrual systems have flaws that are difficult to overcome.

Where does a new clan enter the ladder?

In theory, around the middle of the ladder at 1000 points, very similar to how new players start here. There are some sites/leagues that have a committee that evaluates the skill and will place a clan at 60-70% of their expected placement. This creates point inflation and is generally not done without adjusting the scores of all other clans (which is not popular).

How will the clan league affect the clan ladder, if at all?

Each of the clans in the divisions will play each other home and away for 20 total games and these will be added to the ladder. So that will be 10 times 3 divisions (5 choose 2 times 3 divisions) = 30 more results to add to the ladder over the next 6 months. These cover the blue squares in the league table results.

The purples squares are 10 games on cross-over match ups against the other 10 clans in the other divisions. These do not qualify for the clan ladder.

[hwhrhett]

Once you have met the 3 requirements to join, I'll add you to that group along with one other member of your clan.

you should add those 3 requirements to the post.

1. one competitive clan
2. one completed clan challenge.
3. three months as a clan

[jiminski]

heheh

[Frop]

Are you saying that you don't have any right to voice your opinion unless you join this elusive CLA? Do tell me which 'upper class' clans have adhered to this rather undefined 'one competitive clan' principle - I think there are hardly any clans at the moment which meet this requirement.

Dr. Harrold Leacher: Quid pro quo, Mr Colt.
Colt: What does that mean?
Dr. Harrold Leacher: It means I'm pretentious.

Loaded Weapon 1

[khazalid]

actually frop, i think very many of us do! the rule is 1 competitive clan - you're free to join as many social ones as you wish. i know obviously that thota enforce the 1 clan rule as do dragoons and i think LoW and the regulators. i cant think of any monkis who are in any other competitive clans either, but feel free to dispel that myth if it proves to be mere speculation!

as for a challenge structure i'd recommend 60 games as a template with 30 chosen by each side (break it down to 15,15,15,15 if you'd prefer) as this allows for a draw, whilst being voluminous enough to check some of the swings in luck that a smaller challenge is prone to.

[hulmey]

The Untouchables have a strict one comp clan policy!

[jpcloet]

Are you saying that you don't have any right to voice your opinion unless you join this elusive CLA?

You have the right to voice your opinion at any time on this site. However, a collective "voice" is much more effective as a group and would hopefully have more sway with the site administrators as a functional advice group which happens to include said site directors. I'd like to see the CLA grow and add more members over time.

Do tell me which 'upper class' clans have adhered to this rather undefined 'one competitive clan' principle - I think there are hardly any clans at the moment which meet this requirement.

The membership of the CLA is listed above now in the Q&A section. 2 of the founding members had minor issues with members in multiple competitive clans. One clan has corrected that, and the other is waiting on a challenge the new recruit is in to complete before the clan switch is final. The entrance rules were voted on by the founding members.

TSM was invited last week, however, their player issue (1) has not been resolved yet. Other clans like Marvel/DC Heroes and Warlords of Wort will qualify very soon and are a great example how to grow a new clan. While other long-standing clans like CWC, The Untouchables, Mythology have a number of member issues they have not dealt with. Part of pushing the 1 competitive clan rule is to ensure that clans are ready for the transition whenever that may be. We're told the 1 competitive clan rule will be put into effect, so clans might as well get ahead of the game.

[jpcloet]

The Untouchables have a strict one comp clan policy!

I'm about to head off to work now, but I'll check your membership tonight. Last time I looked, there were at least 4 or 5 player issues. You may have resolved them or you may be unaware that some players are in other clans as well. It's one thing to have the policy, it's another to review and enforce it. Would love to have the Untouchables join and provide their thoughts.

[hulmey]

The Untouchables have a strict one comp clan policy!

I'm about to head off to work now, but I'll check your membership tonight. Last time I looked, there were at least 4 or 5 player issues. You may have resolved them or you may be unaware that some players are in other clans as well. It's one thing to have the policy, it's another to review and enforce it. Would love to have the Untouchables join and provide their thoughts.

TUc enforce the 1 (competitive) clan rule. With 42 members some might escape the rule. Others have requested to their other clans to be taken off the roster and havent. Redfelt can advise you of our one clan rule becuase even though he is a great player we had to let him go due to his loyalty to another clan

[Frop]

actually frop, i think very many of us do! the rule is 1 competitive clan - you're free to join as many social ones as you wish. i know obviously that thota enforce the 1 clan rule as do dragoons and i think LoW and the regulators. i cant think of any monkis who are in any other competitive clans either, but feel free to dispel that myth if it proves to be mere speculation!

Just look at the national teams like Down Under and Team Germany. Seul has been asked by jpcloet to leave Team Germany if he wishes to stay with the Monkeys, yet Neph and lt.pie (both members of the Sheep Sodomizers Brigade) are already in this CLA thing. Last but not least we're making a big deal already about the new clan shizzle even though the admins have noted that it might take a while before they implement all kinds of changes.

I suggest we think first and try to blow this out of proportions later.

[jpcloet]

Just look at the national teams like Down Under and Team Germany. Seul has been asked by jpcloet to leave Team Germany if he wishes to stay with the Monkeys

The clan status of many clans is often very grey as the Down Under team's description made them sound competitive, however, they now claim to be a buddy group. One of the items the CLA is working on is coming up with a general definition of "clan" versus "usergroup" versus "competitive clan".

I never asked clans to remove members or ask them to leave other groups. I never meant for it to be implied either. I simply point out the "potential" issues and it's up to the clan leader to think about it and do their research and talk to their members which I believe TSM has done. My response last time was that it was "grey" and that it was up to your clan to decide whether it was an issue. Also the 1 member issue noted above in this thread is in 2 clans on the ladder so I would say that is a definite issue.

[khazalid]

Just look at the national teams like Down Under and Team Germany. Seul has been asked by jpcloet to leave Team Germany if he wishes to stay with the Monkeys, yet Neph and lt.pie (both members of the Sheep Sodomizers Brigade) are already in this CLA thing. Last but not least we're making a big deal already about the new clan shizzle even though the admins have noted that it might take a while before they implement all kinds of changes.

I suggest we think first and try to blow this out of proportions later.

i suppose the idea is that clans will be duking it out fairly regularly in the near future - what happens if team germany and the monkeys are due for an encounter? as far as i know the 'sheep sodomizers brigade' is a non-competitive clan. that said i've never seen team germany in action either.. do you know if they are competitive?

[hulmey]

Just look at the national teams like Down Under and Team Germany. Seul has been asked by jpcloet to leave Team Germany if he wishes to stay with the Monkeys, yet Neph and lt.pie (both members of the Sheep Sodomizers Brigade) are already in this CLA thing. Last but not least we're making a big deal already about the new clan shizzle even though the admins have noted that it might take a while before they implement all kinds of changes.

I suggest we think first and try to blow this out of proportions later.

i suppose the idea is that clans will be duking it out fairly regularly in the near future - what happens if team germany and the monkeys are due for an encounter? as far as i know the 'sheep sodomizers brigade' is a non-competitive clan. that said i've never seen team germany in action either.. do you know if they are competitive?

TUC have a few members in the Australian clan (named down under or sumthing similar) they are competitive (not sure if they have played a game yet) but only on a national level. I.e, versus germany or england etc...

[David_Wain]

I really like this idea.. there was some discussion recently in our clan forum about this so it's great you;ve took initiative & just started a thread. TYVM jp Hopefully we can get alot of support for it.

[hwhrhett]

as for a challenge structure i'd recommend 60 games as a template with 30 chosen by each side (break it down to 15,15,15,15 if you'd prefer) as this allows for a draw, whilst being voluminous enough to check some of the swings in luck that a smaller challenge is prone to.

when we discussed it, it seems like it may be hard for beginning clans to fill that many games. which is why we broke it down to multiples of 20, where a challenge of 20/40/60/80/etc... is acceptable and fits well into the ranking system we're attempting to try.

Are you saying that you don't have any right to voice your opinion unless you join this elusive CLA? Do tell me which 'upper class' clans have adhered to this rather undefined 'one competitive clan' principle - I think there are hardly any clans at the moment which meet this requirement.

i think the untouchables and the spanking monkis are the only 2 major clans that arent already in.

[jiminski]

hello Jp,
Well you indicated that Seul and Ruben broke your rules of application.

Monki's will not be instructing our members to leave any Nation based Clans (Seul is in the German Clan for example) who only play other Nation based Clans, in minor match-ups. This will therefore never lead to conflicts in interest.

Ruben will have to make a choice (i believe he has never actually played for the other clan) when this becomes official site policy but it is his remit as to when he removes himself.

So i suppose this precludes the Monki's for the moment at least.

....in passing i am not sure how we can be 7th on your ladder but that really is up to you of course.

[Frop]

I never asked clans to remove members or ask them to leave other groups. (...) My response last time was that it was "grey" and that it was up to your clan to decide whether it was an issue.

It didn't sound as 'grey' in your initial communiqué.

Ruben Cassar Sky Force - Sky Force has competed in challenges, so I would say yes, that the clan has to be dropped.

[hwhrhett]

I never asked clans to remove members or ask them to leave other groups. (...) My response last time was that it was "grey" and that it was up to your clan to decide whether it was an issue.

It didn't sound as 'grey' in your initial communiqué.

Ruben Cassar Sky Force - Sky Force has competed in challenges, so I would say yes, that the clan has to be dropped.

sky force doesnt seem to be a nationality based group.

Sky Force
Our clan is for people who are interested in sky battles and fighting.

[jpcloet]

....in passing i am not sure how we can be 7th on your ladder but that really is up to you of course.

I'll explain ELO a little further in the Q&A section and the rankings use statistical data and in no way includes any of my opinions. I can say that clans 2 through to about 10 are very close. In your clans case, it's the lack of challenges so far, I think I have 1 result for you in my calculations. I suspect it'll take 10-20 challenges each for the order to get corrected to how you think it should be. LOD is near the top as we've had a number of challenges and the fact that when we've won, we've won big and when we lost, we lost by only a small margin (eg 22-23 vs G1). That is key to the ELO rankings and an example would be if LOD and THOTA tied, THOTA would lose points in the ranking as they were expected to win. Early on in ELO, you can move around in ranking quite a bit. However, after say 50 challenges with say the site having 100 clans, the top clans will only want to play clans within say 10-15 rungs on the ladder. Which means the ladder is working. At that point, you actually need someone to be the "Ladder Scheduler" so that you have some variety in your opponents when you reach that somewhat "steady state of rank" Let's hope clans and the site grow to achieve that and more.

I really want TSM in CLA, and their methodology of map review was awesome, results can be debated. The work that was done around which maps work for doubles/trips/quads was great and I'd like to see that expanded within the CLA discussions (not here) as to what card setting work on those maps as well. Someone said once "NO FLAT RATE" yet the analysis ingored the larger maps where cards have a minimal impact. I look forward to the TSM joining and providing their insights and recommendations. I think they have a lot to offer and can help create a common foundation and understanding.

[MarVal]

Good luck on this Unofficial Clan Ladder, jpcloet.

You doing it great...

...for so far

Just kidding

Grtz
MarVal

[hulmey]

....in passing i am not sure how we can be 7th on your ladder but that really is up to you of course.

I'll explain ELO a little further in the Q&A section and the rankings use statistical data and in no way includes any of my opinions. I can say that clans 2 through to about 10 are very close. In your clans case, it's the lack of challenges so far, I think I have 1 result for you in my calculations. I suspect it'll take 10-20 challenges each for the order to get corrected to how you think it should be. LOD is near the top as we've had a number of challenges and the fact that when we've won, we've won big and when we lost, we lost by only a small margin (eg 22-23 vs G1). That is key to the ELO rankings and an example would be if LOD and THOTA tied, THOTA would lose points in the ranking as they were expected to win. Early on in ELO, you can move around in ranking quite a bit. However, after say 50 challenges with say the site having 100 clans, the top clans will only want to play clans within say 10-15 rungs on the ladder. Which means the ladder is working. At that point, you actually need someone to be the "Ladder Scheduler" so that you have some variety in your opponents when you reach that somewhat "steady state of rank" Let's hope clans and the site grow to achieve that and more.

I really want TSM in CLA, and their methodology of map review was awesome, results can be debated. The work that was done around which maps work for doubles/trips/quads was great and I'd like to see that expanded within the CLA discussions (not here) as to what card setting work on those maps as well. Someone said once "NO FLAT RATE" yet the analysis ingored the larger maps where cards have a minimal impact. I look forward to the TSM joining and providing their insights and recommendations. I think they have a lot to offer and can help create a common foundation and understanding.

flat rate is a no no. All the big clans hate it and i for one will never let my clan play against clans that use flat rate. The Olympics tournament is a prime example of how shit flat rate is. You out play your opposition and hammer them against the wall, only for them to pull out a 3 card set of 10 armies and unless you can cash also its very much game over.

[hwhrhett]

flat rate is a no no. All the big clans hate it and i for one will never let my clan play against clans that use flat rate. The Olympics tournament is a prime example of how shit flat rate is. You out play your opposition and hammer them against the wall, only for them to pull out a 3 card set of 10 armies and unless you can cash also its very much game over.

besides untouchables and spanking monkis, what other major clans have this hate of flat rate? its never come up for me until recently.

[BENJIKAT IS DEAD]

flat rate is a no no. All the big clans hate it and i for one will never let my clan play against clans that use flat rate. The Olympics tournament is a prime example of how shit flat rate is. You out play your opposition and hammer them against the wall, only for them to pull out a 3 card set of 10 armies and unless you can cash also its very much game over.

besides untouchables and spanking monkis, what other major clans have this hate of flat rate? its never come up for me until recently.

I doubt we would choose to make many flat rate games ourselves, but our general approach is to have as few restrictions as possible.

[Bones2484]

I've never seen a problem with it either. We, in G1, always do home/away games and are of the opinion that the home games are, in fact, supposed to have advantages. You can use whatever settings you want (even if it means freestyle or flat rate which take away the advantage of being a "home" game).