Shutting down a couple of Mormons

[pimpdave]

Man, this video rules. Regardless of your religious beliefs (unless of course you're a Mormon), this just rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q5gS2uAOSU

[Martin Ronne]

Nice! That was good.

[Juan_Bottom]

I am a Mormon Dave. And I think that you should feel ashamed. You were my friend and you hurt me. Worse than my bear friend that I had when I was a child, Pedrobear. I hope that you both get whats coming to you.

[Optimus Prime]

Haven't seen a Mormon bashing thread in a while around here. How exciting... oh wait, nope, just boring.

Don't go making fun of things you likely don't understand at all.

[Juan_Bottom]

Haven't seen a Mormon bashing thread in a while around here. How exciting... oh wait, nope, just boring.

Don't go making fun of things you likely don't understand at all.

I don't come to CC to be persecuted.
Thank-you OP. I'm glad that someone around here still respects other people's rights and views. And above all, the good name of our lord.

[pimpdave]

Oh, it wasn't directed at Mormons specifically. It was meant more as a generally interesting video to watch as someone shut down someone else essentially "cold calling". That's all I saw in it. I have nothing against Mormons.

The guys who did the shutting down were really quite rude, and engaged in the same behavior they criticized the proselytizers for: speaking over the other person or interrupting.

Human nature doesn't change. That's all that should be taken away from that video.

[b.k. barunt]

Haven't seen a Mormon bashing thread in a while around here. How exciting... oh wait, nope, just boring.

Don't go making fun of things you likely don't understand at all.

I don't come to CC to be persecuted.
Thank-you OP. I'm glad that someone around here still respects other people's rights and views. And above all, the good name of our lord.

Persecuted? "Mormon bashing"? Would you like some cheese with that whine? For Godsakes guys, ditch the martyr complex already. The tape showed a typical mormon missionary duo involved in a discussion that left them somewhat lacking in basic reasoning skills. If you think you can do a better job of defending your beliefs, have at it, but don't piss and moan about being persecuted.

I like your posts in general, and i respect your beliefs and views. That doesn't mean i agree with them, and to question them is not to disrespect them. If you, like Optimus, simply reject discussion out of hand with a stereotypical "things you don't understand", you are falling short of the biblical exhortation to "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you . . ."

So, for starters maybe you could answer the question posed to the 2 reluctant missionaries, i.e. why is the Book of Mormon necessary to augment the Bible?




Honibaz

[demonfork]

Haven't seen a Mormon bashing thread in a while around here. How exciting... oh wait, nope, just boring.

Don't go making fun of things you likely don't understand at all.

I don't come to CC to be persecuted.
Thank-you OP. I'm glad that someone around here still respects other people's rights and views. And above all, the good name of our lord.

Persecuted? "Mormon bashing"? Would you like some cheese with that whine? For Godsakes guys, ditch the martyr complex already. The tape showed a typical mormon missionary duo involved in a discussion that left them somewhat lacking in basic reasoning skills. If you think you can do a better job of defending your beliefs, have at it, but don't piss and moan about being persecuted.

I like your posts in general, and i respect your beliefs and views. That doesn't mean i agree with them, and to question them is not to disrespect them. If you, like Optimus, simply reject discussion out of hand with a stereotypical "things you don't understand", you are falling short of the biblical exhortation to "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you . . ."

So, for starters maybe you could answer the question posed to the 2 reluctant missionaries, i.e. why is the Book of Mormon necessary to augment the Bible?




Honibaz

Maybe you watched a different video than I but I did not see "2 reluctant missionaries".

I saw two missionaries that recognized that the dude that they were talking to was not interested in listening, he had his mind already made up. The two missionaries were not even given the opportunity to answer questions, they could not even get a word in edge-wise. I think they were pretty much waiting for homeboy to finish his ramblings so they could politely get the eff out.

So, for starters maybe you could answer the question posed to the 2 reluctant missionaries, i.e. why is the Book of Mormon necessary to augment the Bible?

I don't think that the BOM could be considered an augmentation of the Bible, its a completely separate record of the ancient inhabitants of North America. If Jesus did visit NA, as the BOM claims and there was a preserved record of this, would this not be something of value to the Christian people?

When the bible was assembled in the 4th century, under the creedal council of Nicea, by who's authority were the books that are in the bible as we know it now chosen? Were these men divinely appointed to canonize one book whilst throwing out another?

Seems silly to me for one to believe that the Bible as we know it, is all there is and that any other ancient record that may or may not be found is automatically disqualified from bearing any truth.

[PLAYER57832]

[When the bible was assembled in the 4th century, under the creedal council of Nicea, by who's authority were the books that are in the bible as we know it now chosen? Were these men divinely appointed to canonize one book whilst throwing out another?

Most Christian churches pretty much maintain they were divinely inspired.

Also, the standards they used were pretty strict. (accepted books were written by people who were verified to have seen Christ, other criteria)

[Rocketry]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... ead#unread

Theres even a mormon clan! I just joined. I've been wanting to convert away from atheism for a while and this opportunity just walked into my life! It must be a sign.

Rocket.

[Juan_Bottom]

Wait... BK, I'm an Atheist.....

I started the Godless Heathens, CC's Atheist clan!

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... ead#unread

Theres even a mormon clan! I just joined. I've been wanting to convert away from atheism for a while and this opportunity just walked into my life! It must be a sign.

Rocket.

OP called me on it, check my wall.
Screw that, join the Godless Heathens.

[Optimus Prime]

Ah yes, b.k. barunt, I remember a lovely little thread back way back when where I did try to answer a few questions.

Guess what that got me? A bunch of people shouting me down like I was some sort of ignorant fool. Care to explain to me why I would want to defend my faith to a large pool of individuals who have no desire to listen to the correct answer to their questions?

The interesting thing is that nobody seems to understand the fact that I don't mind if they don't agree with my beliefs, as a matter of fact, I'm perfectly comfortable with that. What I don't get is why everyone presumes to think they can tell me what I believe when they aren't even a member of my faith. That was the problem in the old thread, and will be the same problem in this thread if it becomes a discussion on the tenets of LDS faith.

People seem to believe a lot of things that they read about Mormons and what they believe, and rarely take the time to just ask an actual member what the real answer to a question they have is. I'd be more than willing to answer any questions as long as they aren't targeted just to draw me into an argument over semantics or obscure doctrine. Questions of that nature are simply pointless until you actually understand the basics of how the LDS faith operates.

Now, in regards to the missionaries, I've been one, right smack dab in the middle of some serious bible belt areas, and what most people don't understand is that as missionaries we were instructed to present the opportunity to people we met to learn more about our faith, but if they were not interested, to simply thank them for their time, and move along. We weren't out there to force conversions, nor were we there to convince people. We were there to make the information available and then allow people to decide for themselves.

Granted, not every missionary gets it through their head that there will always be people who want to argue and they need to just walk away once it reaches a point of contention, and not every missionary understands from the very beginning that they need to let people choose, and not force the issue, but they learn quickly and after a little while they find the proper method that works to keep the balance.

So, b.k. barunt, if you want to find me a place to answer questions where I won't be shouted down as not knowing my own faith's tenets and told that I "need to go talk to my bishop for clarification" then by all means, I'll answer as much as I can. Don't take that as avoidance of conflict, take it as my desire to not waste time dealing with those who are not truly interested.

[PLAYER57832]

Now, in regards to the missionaries, I've been one, right smack dab in the middle of some serious bible belt areas, and what most people don't understand is that as missionaries we were instructed to present the opportunity to people we met to learn more about our faith, but if they were not interested, to simply thank them for their time, and move along. We weren't out there to force conversions, nor were we there to convince people. We were there to make the information available and then allow people to decide for themselves.

Granted, not every missionary gets it through their head that there will always be people who want to argue and they need to just walk away once it reaches a point of contention, and not every missionary understands from the very beginning that they need to let people choose, and not force the issue, but they learn quickly and after a little while they find the proper method that works to keep the balance.

First, you make some excellent points in the first few paragraphs. I actually expected this thread to be shut down. When it wasn't ... I got curious. I am not a member of LDS, of course, and don't share all your beliefs, but I respect your right to them.

That said, while Mormons certainly have no lock on missionaries who are .. a bit overzealous, a bit too assertive or however you wish to describe it, I have met too many who were just plain irritating (and anyone here knows I like to discuss things!). I think if you are going to knock on someone's door and interrupt their lives to give them a message, it behooves you first to listen. Too often, I have gotten into conversations with "missionaries" who actually knew less of the Bible or even their own faith than I. It gets a bit tiresome to talk to what what might as well be a mindless robot reciting memorized statements. I think if more missionaries acted in the manner you describe, they would not be so ridiculed.

[Optimus Prime]

I think if more missionaries acted in the manner you describe, they would not be so ridiculed.

I agree completely. It would be nice if every LDS missionary were to approach the work the way it is intended to be approached, but like you said, complete control is not possible. I would be willing to say that a large majority of the missionaries out there are pretty good at approaching people properly, but obviously everyone focuses on those that don't, as proven by the video posted.

If you don't mind me asking, how long has it been since a pair of missionaries knocked on your door?

[PLAYER57832]

I think if more missionaries acted in the manner you describe, they would not be so ridiculed.

I agree completely. It would be nice if every LDS missionary were to approach the work the way it is intended to be approached, but like you said, complete control is not possible. I would be willing to say that a large majority of the missionaries out there are pretty good at approaching people properly, but obviously everyone focuses on those that don't, as proven by the video posted.

If you don't mind me asking, how long has it been since a pair of missionaries knocked on your door?

When I was younger, I used to get them a lot. Partly because I moved around a lot, partluy I suppose because I was just young. Now, I generally invite them in, talk/answer their questions politely (unless kids need my attention or some such) .. and no doubt end up on a "do not knock" list.

Recently, I went 4 years without seeing anyone (rather, I would see them, but they would not come to my door). This last 2 years, I had a couple that ... well, reminded me a lot of robots.

Interestingly, though they are almost always men, I have twice had women come to my door. In one case, I was a young college student and flat out said I just did not feel comfortable talking with men I did not know alone in my apartment. (this was when some stuff was going on in our area... so I was rightfully paranoid). A couple of weeks later some women came by. ( I suspect I was not the only one) Another time, more recently, a young woman came with 2 younger men. (maybe a change in policy? not sure).

[b.k. barunt]

I don't think that the BOM could be considered an augmentation of the Bible, its a completely separate record of the ancient inhabitants of North America. If Jesus did visit NA, as the BOM claims and there was a preserved record of this, would this not be something of value to the Christian people?

Yes it is considered to be an "additional divine revelation" to an already established divine revelation. Which put succinctly = augmentation. What you "think" about that does not change it for a couple million Mormons.

You think the Book of Mormon might actually be a "preserved record"? Maybe you could read up on Mormonism before rendering an opinion. Save time.
The "golden tablets" that Joe Smith "translated" the Book of Mormon from were never seen by anyone. The Bible is a preserved record - heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? - the Book of Mormon is not. There is no empirical evidence whatsoever that it came from anywhere but the dim recesses of Joe's mind.

If you'd take the time to actually read the book (i have), you'd see how ridiculous the whole thing is. A vast civilization with walled cities (over a million armor clad men died in one great battle) and there's not one fooking historical piece of evidence. Amazing! Remote Indian tribes made up of under fifty people, and we have pottery shards, beads, arrowheads, etc., but this vast civilization that stretched from Latin America to Canada offers us not a scrap of fooking historical evidence. "Something of value to the Christian people" - riggghhht.


Honibaz

[Juan_Bottom]

- heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

They may be talking about the Jewish God, but Bible they are not. In fact, they almost refute today's Bible. Careful with that one.

If you'd take the time to actually read the book (i have), you'd see how ridiculous the whole thing is. A vast civilization with walled cities (over a million armor clad men died in one great battle) and there's not one fooking historical piece of evidence. Amazing! Remote Indian tribes made up of under fifty people, and we have pottery shards, beads, arrowheads, etc., but this vast civilization that stretched from Latin America to Canada offers us not a scrap of fooking historical evidence. "Something of value to the Christian people" - riggghhht.

Well, maybe that something of value is BYU super low enrollment fees? I heard it's like $6Grand a semester if you're mormon....

[demonfork]

Actually there were 8 witnesses that saw the Golden Plates and they all attested to their authenticity.

There is not one single scroll/document/papyrus/tablet that exists that in an original record that the Bible was translated from, they are all copies of copies of copies copies of copies. In fact the copies that do exist can't even be genealogically traced to their author.

If you are going to claim the BOM to be fraud because the original plates are not in existence then you must also do so for the Bible.

If the BOM is the fabrication of the dim mind of Joseph Smith, then How has he able to so accurately describe the Arabian peninsula so accurately, when no such information was in existence at the time. How was he able to write the BOM using Hebrewisms as well as instances of chiasmus, before these writing styles were known?

[2dimes]

If the BOM is the fabrication of the dim mind of Joseph Smith, then How has he able to so accurately describe the Arabian peninsula so accurately, when no such information was in existence at the time. How was he able to write the BOM using Hebrewisms as well as instances of chiasmus, before these writing styles were known?

You're kidding right?

[demonfork]

If the BOM is the fabrication of the dim mind of Joseph Smith, then How has he able to so accurately describe the Arabian peninsula so accurately, when no such information was in existence at the time. How was he able to write the BOM using Hebrewisms as well as instances of chiasmus, before these writing styles were known?

You're kidding right?

Your rebuttal is "You're kidding me right?"

You're kidding me right?

[InkL0sed]

Did he just say chiasmus wasn't "known" before Joseph Smith's time...?

Am I missing something here?

[jonesthecurl]

...or Arabia...

[PLAYER57832]

It is a matter of belief. It cannot really be proven. Trying to prove Mormonism false is no differant than trying to prove Judaism false or any other long-standing religion. If they could be disproven, they would have died out.

[InkL0sed]

Whether or not Joseph Smith used chiasmus before that "writing style was known", however, is not up for debate.

[b.k. barunt]

Yeah, and the "8 witnesses" were whittled down to 2 or three at the end there - Demonfork, i notice you avoided addressing the issue of lack of historical evidence. How do you explain that no remains of walled cities have been uncovered, none of the swords, breastplates and other bits of armor of the millions of warriors has ever turned up? I asked Optimus the same question and he kept changing the subject.


Honibaz