swedish couple conceals child's biological sex from world

[SultanOfSurreal]

http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

pop, now two years old, is being raised without any gender imposed on him and without outsiders knowing pop's sex. pop is treated as if genderless, and the only expressions of masculinity or femininity are those pop chooses. it will be interesting to see how a child raised without certain expectations being enforced turns out.

i tend to think that gender is in many ways inborn so pop will probably gravitate towards males if a boy, or females if a girl. especially once in school, i think pop will almost instantly be drawn to the company of peers of the same sex and identify as their gender, if pop hasn't already.

[xelabale]

Isn't it so cool to do experiments on children? Man I love that shit! It's gonna be so cool to see that kids face when we tell it we've been fuckin with it for the last few years!!

[SultanOfSurreal]

Isn't it so cool to do experiments on children? Man I love that shit! It's gonna be so cool to see that kids face when we tell it we've been fuckin with it for the last few years!!

yeah man letting a kid make a decision on their own is the absolute worst thing we could ever do

[cyrenius]

Isn't it so cool to do experiments on children? Man I love that shit! It's gonna be so cool to see that kids face when we tell it we've been fuckin with it for the last few years!!

Some parents raise some f***ed up children cause they don't know better. Pop's parents f*** him/her up on purpose

[xelabale]

Isn't it so cool to do experiments on children? Man I love that shit! It's gonna be so cool to see that kids face when we tell it we've been fuckin with it for the last few years!!

yeah man letting a kid make a decision on their own is the absolute worst thing we could ever do

I'm taking that as sarcasm.

Here Johnny, my lovely little 2 year old, do you want vegetables or chocolate for tea tonight? But vegetables are good for you! Oh well, it's your decision I suppose...

[SultanOfSurreal]

yeah man letting a kid make a decision on their own is the absolute worst thing we could ever do

I'm taking that as sarcasm.

Here Johnny, my lovely little 2 year old, do you want vegetables or chocolate for tea tonight? But vegetables are good for you! Oh well, it's your decision I suppose...

tell me, why exactly is it so inherently detrimental to allow a child to discover their own perception of their identity? in what way is forcing children to act masculine or feminine better than allowing them to decide for themselves? and how is that at all comparable to letting them eat unhealthy food whenever they want?

(you don't have any cogent answers of course, you're just getting all het up because these parents aren't jamming their kid into your narrow worldview)

[Haggis_McMutton]

yeah man letting a kid make a decision on their own is the absolute worst thing we could ever do

I'm taking that as sarcasm.

Here Johnny, my lovely little 2 year old, do you want vegetables or chocolate for tea tonight? But vegetables are good for you! Oh well, it's your decision I suppose...

tell me, why exactly is it so inherently detrimental to allow a child to discover their own perception of their identity? in what way is forcing children to act masculine or feminine better than allowing them to decide for themselves? and how is that at all comparable to letting them eat unhealthy food whenever they want?

(you don't have any cogent answers of course, you're just getting all het up because these parents aren't jamming their kid into your narrow worldview)

But ... that's .... how we always did it. It must be right, right?

I mean what's the point in having a kid if you don't get to dress it in blue/pink and buy it loads of toy cars/dolls and action figures/toy ovens?

[SultanOfSurreal]

But ... that's .... how we always did it. It must be right, right?

I mean what's the point in having a kid if you don't get to dress it in blue/pink and buy it loads of toy cars/dolls and action figures/toy ovens?

ita

lock these """""""parents""""""" up!!!!

[strike wolf]

Because of clothing, I think it's slightly more likely that Pop will gravitate to associating itself as a boy than a girl, of course it's also possible that the parents know this and are going to try to let pop pick out it's own clothing from a very young age at least to the extent that pop can. Though it will be interestinng to see if this child is able to home onto it's own gender with no outside influence (or at least the bare minimum of influence) or any of the other possibilities out there. I guess we'll find out when puberty comes along. Or maybe it's that they'll find out.

[PLAYER57832]

tell me, why exactly is it so inherently detrimental to allow a child to discover their own perception of their identity? in what way is forcing children to act masculine or feminine better than allowing them to decide for themselves? and how is that at all comparable to letting them eat unhealthy food whenever they want?

The problem with letting a child choose anything is that they just don't have the experience to understand the ramificaitons of their choices.

[strike wolf]

tell me, why exactly is it so inherently detrimental to allow a child to discover their own perception of their identity? in what way is forcing children to act masculine or feminine better than allowing them to decide for themselves? and how is that at all comparable to letting them eat unhealthy food whenever they want?

The problem with letting a child choose anything is that they just don't have the experience to understand the ramificaitons of their choices.

No one said anything about them not teaching teh kid was moral or immoral, just how the child should act based on gender.

Personally I think it's too early to tell whether this will turn out well or not. because it's so early in the childs life the effect will be greater so if it goes wrong it could go detrimentally wrong. However we do not have any evidence to say that something will turn out badly and really I think the chances that it does go badly are less than 50%

[snufkin]

It wont work in Sweden.. our social service bureaus/departments are too intrusive for that - they wont let a child be that isolated and home schooled up until puberty.

sure, there is a social factor to gender identity but it´s not as big as some radical feminists seem to think. At least not in Sweden during the last 40 years or so..

[strike wolf]

It wont work in Sweden.. our social service bureaus/departments are too intrusive for that - they wont let a child be that isolated and home schooled up until puberty.

sure, there is a social factor to gender identity but it´s not as big as some radical feminists seem to think. At least not in Sweden during the last 40 years or so..

he/she's being home schooled? that' no fun. I'd rather see how the child would react if put in the normal everyday situation of a kid his/her age just without the gender. I guess there is an increase possibility of things going wrong that way but a home schooled life I think would turn out too controlled to have much of an effect.

[snufkin]

he/she's being home schooled? that' no fun. I'd rather see how the child would react if put in the normal everyday situation of a kid his/her age just without the gender.

then they wont be able to keep it secret (swedish school system wont allow it without knowing the gender) and if it isn´t a secret then there isn´t anything particularly special about it at all..

[PLAYER57832]

tell me, why exactly is it so inherently detrimental to allow a child to discover their own perception of their identity? in what way is forcing children to act masculine or feminine better than allowing them to decide for themselves? and how is that at all comparable to letting them eat unhealthy food whenever they want?

The problem with letting a child choose anything is that they just don't have the experience to understand the ramificaitons of their choices.

No one said anything about them not teaching teh kid was moral or immoral, just how the child should act based on gender.

Personally I think it's too early to tell whether this will turn out well or not. because it's so early in the childs life the effect will be greater so if it goes wrong it could go detrimentally wrong. However we do not have any evidence to say that something will turn out badly and really I think the chances that it does go badly are less than 50%

I did not mentioned morals, either.

Our jobs as parents is to expose our kids to as many options as possible. Ideally, they leap into things willingly, but there are times when a parent has to step in and say "I know you may not appreciate piano lessons right now, but I consider them important". It is definitely a balance. Push a kid too much and it is very bad, but stepping back entirely is also bad.

Food is actually a good example. I cannot count the number of times I hear parents talk about all the foods their 18 month old already "won't eat". Most kids need to see foods an AVERAGE of 20 times before they will accept it. On the one hand, forcing kids to eat things doesn't accomplish much (with very few exceptions,such as sick kids ), BUT cooking 5 different meals is definitely not helpful either. Kids do have to learn to eat different foods. If you all you ever giver your kid is hamburgers and fries, because that's all they want ..then guess what, that is all they will ever want!

That child will be making choices, but the choices will be made without direction, reason, understanding of consequence. These parents are thinking they are opening up the world to their child, but just like the parents who refuse to serve foods to their kids their kids "don't like".. they are actually limiting their child, not expanding his/her world

[b.k. barunt]

yeah man letting a kid make a decision on their own is the absolute worst thing we could ever do

I'm taking that as sarcasm.

Here Johnny, my lovely little 2 year old, do you want vegetables or chocolate for tea tonight? But vegetables are good for you! Oh well, it's your decision I suppose...

tell me, why exactly is it so inherently detrimental to allow a child to discover their own perception of their identity? in what way is forcing children to act masculine or feminine better than allowing them to decide for themselves? and how is that at all comparable to letting them eat unhealthy food whenever they want?

(you don't have any cogent answers of course, you're just getting all het up because these parents aren't jamming their kid into your narrow worldview)

Evidently Xelabale's explanation zipped right over your head. Not simple enough? I could go into the difference between concrete and abstract reasoning, and how a child doesn't even reach the ability for concrete reasoning before 4 or 5 (or in your case 14 or 15), and cannot comprehend abstract reasoning until well into puberty, but that's something you obviously wouldn't grasp. Let me see if i can bring it down to your level:

Kids cannot raise themselves. They need guidance. They need nurture. They need discipline. They need love. If you have good parents doing this, the child grows up happy and well adjusted. If you have ignorant wankers doing it, then the child grows up frustrated, confused and stoopit, as you make perfectly clear.


Honibaz

[MrBenn]

Genes and hormones have an effect on the brain: it is masculinised by testosterone and feminised by female hormones.

I remember seeing a TV program a while back about gender awareness in children... (Link)

[SultanOfSurreal]

It wont work in Sweden.. our social service bureaus/departments are too intrusive for that - they wont let a child be that isolated and home schooled up until puberty

they're not trying to keep pop's sex or gender a secret forever, they're doing so until the child is willing to reveal it. the child will be schooled normally.

I did not mentioned morals, either.

Our jobs as parents is to expose our kids to as many options as possible. Ideally, they leap into things willingly, but there are times when a parent has to step in and say "I know you may not appreciate piano lessons right now, but I consider them important". It is definitely a balance. Push a kid too much and it is very bad, but stepping back entirely is also bad.

Food is actually a good example. I cannot count the number of times I hear parents talk about all the foods their 18 month old already "won't eat". Most kids need to see foods an AVERAGE of 20 times before they will accept it. On the one hand, forcing kids to eat things doesn't accomplish much (with very few exceptions,such as sick kids ), BUT cooking 5 different meals is definitely not helpful either. Kids do have to learn to eat different foods. If you all you ever giver your kid is hamburgers and fries, because that's all they want ..then guess what, that is all they will ever want!

That child will be making choices, but the choices will be made without direction, reason, understanding of consequence. These parents are thinking they are opening up the world to their child, but just like the parents who refuse to serve foods to their kids their kids "don't like".. they are actually limiting their child, not expanding his/her world

there is a huge difference between being forced to eat your vegetables and being forced into a gender role you know is wrong for you. transsexuals and unfortunate accident victims like david reimer are often emotionally traumatized by being shoehorned into society's expectations.

but let's back up for a minute and stop speaking in abstractions. i know so many of you get immediately defensive whenever issues of gender come up, so let's examine the situation on its own terms. what are these parents actually doing? well, first off they're not disclosing their child's sex to others. there's nothing wrong with that, no one has some inherent right to know the sex of your kid.

secondly they're not guiding the child's behavior with the goal of masculine/feminine behavior in mind. obviously they're guiding the child's behavior in keeping it from doing bad things, but they're not fussing over what the child plays with or wears.

and at this point pop has no conception of sex or gender. that will take a few years, and when it comes, pop will be able to see, without help, where pop belongs. that's human nature, and allowing it to happen naturally is going to have precisely zero effect on pop's mental health.

in fact i'd say it's a far sight better than instilling a rigid, binary understanding of gender on the child, because gender really is a spectrum and even "normal" people who identify along the lines of biological sex are going to be different in some ways from what society says is ideal. if you have a view of gender as being so rigid, any differences you perceive in yourself will be stigmatizing. not every case is as severe as David Reimer's, but imagine being a little boy who, even though he is comfortable as a male, just really likes the color pink. little things like that, while not scarring, certainly don't make the child more well-adjusted.

so why the obsession with regulating your kid's preferences? that's what instilling gendered behavior really is, in the end. taking your (wholly ridiculous) food analogy, this is not like making your kid eat vegetables over chocolate -- it's more akin to attempting to make your child prefer vegetables. you can't force things like that on a kid, and attempts to do so will be futile at best.

but i'm getting into abstractions again. the long and short of it is that pop will naturally end up where pop belongs. the parents are not evil for telling their kid it's all right to play with trucks or dolls or whatever the hell. chill out and stop comparing them to parents who let their kids become hambeasts out of weak wills and neglect.

(i'm addressing this missive to you, specifically, player. because while i know you can be blithely ignorant at times, you are generally more reasonable than most others here. consider what i've said and how your personal biases are coloring your perception of the story.)

[b.k. barunt]

"Regulating" childrens' behavior sounds sinister in the way you portray it. Being an adolescent yourself, and not having any children to raise, it's understandable that you'd be somewhat ignorant of what proper parenting entails, and i'm sure the issue is further clouded by your trauma and angst in the area of sexual identity.

I myself tried to see where my son's natural strengths, talents, and tendencies pointed. When he was 4, i noticed that he showed an interest in piano, so i started teaching him. I also started teaching him Karate at that age. As he got older, i noticed that he had more of a bent toward music and the arts, so i didn't push the athletics, but concentrated on his artistic side.

I did the same with his gender. As he was obviously a male, i guided him in that direction. I bought him toys that were male oriented. I helped shape his psyche so that he would grow to be a strong man and not a weak and effeminate one such as yourself. If he would've been born a girl, i would've guided her to be strong and feminine as i wouldn't want my daughter to be weak either.

A child is born with certain traits and characteristics. You need to identify them and nurture them, not leave the child to figure out what they are. Whatthefuck does he need parents for? These people who are Pop's parents (ironic name there, as he has to parent himself) are not parents at all - they're using their kid as the sacrificial lamb for a bizarre experiment. This is unconscionable, immoral, and fooking sick. You obviously had parents who were clueless morons, and maybe made you ashamed of your lack of machismo, so you're inclined to go to the other extreme. Understandable, but very smart.


Honibaz

[strike wolf]

he/she's being home schooled? that' no fun. I'd rather see how the child would react if put in the normal everyday situation of a kid his/her age just without the gender.

then they wont be able to keep it secret (swedish school system wont allow it without knowing the gender) and if it isn´t a secret then there isn´t anything particularly special about it at all..

Hmm...then I've lost interest in this "experiment"

[strike wolf]

tell me, why exactly is it so inherently detrimental to allow a child to discover their own perception of their identity? in what way is forcing children to act masculine or feminine better than allowing them to decide for themselves? and how is that at all comparable to letting them eat unhealthy food whenever they want?

The problem with letting a child choose anything is that they just don't have the experience to understand the ramificaitons of their choices.

No one said anything about them not teaching teh kid was moral or immoral, just how the child should act based on gender.

Personally I think it's too early to tell whether this will turn out well or not. because it's so early in the childs life the effect will be greater so if it goes wrong it could go detrimentally wrong. However we do not have any evidence to say that something will turn out badly and really I think the chances that it does go badly are less than 50%

I did not mentioned morals, either.

Our jobs as parents is to expose our kids to as many options as possible. Ideally, they leap into things willingly, but there are times when a parent has to step in and say "I know you may not appreciate piano lessons right now, but I consider them important". It is definitely a balance. Push a kid too much and it is very bad, but stepping back entirely is also bad.

Umm...I don't see anywhere that it said they would step out of this kid's life entirely. I'm sure that they'll guide him/her and take care of her/him just like most parents would do for their child except they are trying to raise him/her in a "genderless" environment.

That child will be making choices, but the choices will be made without direction, reason, understanding of consequence. These parents are thinking they are opening up the world to their child, but just like the parents who refuse to serve foods to their kids their kids "don't like".. they are actually limiting their child, not expanding his/her world

I fail to see how removing the limit of gender restrictions limits the child perhaps you can explain.

[SultanOfSurreal]

"Regulating" childrens' behavior sounds sinister in the way you portray it. Being an adolescent yourself, and not having any children to raise, it's understandable that you'd be somewhat ignorant of what proper parenting entails, and i'm sure the issue is further clouded by your trauma and angst in the area of sexual identity.

I myself tried to see where my son's natural strengths, talents, and tendencies pointed. When he was 4, i noticed that he showed an interest in piano, so i started teaching him. I also started teaching him Karate at that age. As he got older, i noticed that he had more of a bent toward music and the arts, so i didn't push the athletics, but concentrated on his artistic side.

I did the same with his gender. As he was obviously a male, i guided him in that direction. I bought him toys that were male oriented. I helped shape his psyche so that he would grow to be a strong man and not a weak and effeminate one such as yourself. If he would've been born a girl, i would've guided her to be strong and feminine as i wouldn't want my daughter to be weak either.

A child is born with certain traits and characteristics. You need to identify them and nurture them, not leave the child to figure out what they are. Whatthefuck does he need parents for? These people who are Pop's parents (ironic name there, as he has to parent himself) are not parents at all - they're using their kid as the sacrificial lamb for a bizarre experiment. This is unconscionable, immoral, and fooking sick. You obviously had parents who were clueless morons, and maybe made you ashamed of your lack of machismo, so you're inclined to go to the other extreme. Understandable, but very smart.


Honibaz

wow this is a lot of bullshit and absolutely nothing in the way of how exactly what the parents are doing is detrimental to the child.

they're using their kid as the sacrificial lamb for a bizarre experiment. This is unconscionable, immoral, and fooking sick.

no they're not, they're raising their child in the way that they think is best. they themselves say it's for the sake of the child.

but i love how you've taken "doesn't scold the kid for playing with the wrong toy and doesn't dress it up exclusively in the color we've arbitrarily decided fits its gender" and made it into monocle-popping UNCONSCIONABLE CRUELTY

seriously dude you have some huge issues with sexuality, and you are being fucking stupid about this, even for you

[jonesthecurl]

i can understand the parent's impulse - but I think that the excessive attention that the child will attract because of it's "genderless" nature will itself be dtrimental.

“Girls are told they are cute in their dresses, and boys are told they are cool with their car toys. But if you give them no gender they will be seen more as a human or not a stereotype as a boy or girl.”

Unfirtunately Pop will be seen as, I suspect, a freak.
And once Pop iis in regular contact with other kids (which I hope he/she will be, indeed already should be at 2 years), how long will it be before someone says "are you a boy or a girl?", and how long will it be before the "I don't know" reply will be met with, "well, have you got a willy?"

[SultanOfSurreal]

i can understand the parent's impulse - but I think that the excessive attention that the child will attract because of it's "genderless" nature will itself be dtrimental.

“Girls are told they are cute in their dresses, and boys are told they are cool with their car toys. But if you give them no gender they will be seen more as a human or not a stereotype as a boy or girl.”

Unfirtunately Pop will be seen as, I suspect, a freak.
And once Pop iis in regular contact with other kids (which I hope he/she will be, indeed already should be at 2 years), how long will it be before someone says "are you a boy or a girl?", and how long will it be before the "I don't know" reply will be met with, "well, have you got a willy?"

pop will know his/her own sex, once pop is old enough to have a conception of sexes and the differences between them. there's no way to keep that a secret from the kid, and nor do the parents want to do that in the first place.

i suspect pop will naturally gravitate towards peers of the same sex and that he/she will behave like them, thereby identifying as their gender. i have no concerns that pop will be singled out as a freak, or become somehow confused. why do you think it will be a problem?

[snufkin]

"Regulating" childrens' behavior sounds sinister in the way you portray it. Being an adolescent yourself, and not having any children to raise, it's understandable that you'd be somewhat ignorant of what proper parenting entails, and i'm sure the issue is further clouded by your trauma and angst in the area of sexual identity.

I myself tried to see where my son's natural strengths, talents, and tendencies pointed. When he was 4, i noticed that he showed an interest in piano, so i started teaching him. I also started teaching him Karate at that age. As he got older, i noticed that he had more of a bent toward music and the arts, so i didn't push the athletics, but concentrated on his artistic side.

I did the same with his gender. As he was obviously a male, i guided him in that direction. I bought him toys that were male oriented. I helped shape his psyche so that he would grow to be a strong man and not a weak and effeminate one such as yourself. If he would've been born a girl, i would've guided her to be strong and feminine as i wouldn't want my daughter to be weak either.

A child is born with certain traits and characteristics. You need to identify them and nurture them, not leave the child to figure out what they are. Whatthefuck does he need parents for? These people who are Pop's parents (ironic name there, as he has to parent himself) are not parents at all - they're using their kid as the sacrificial lamb for a bizarre experiment. This is unconscionable, immoral, and fooking sick. You obviously had parents who were clueless morons, and maybe made you ashamed of your lack of machismo, so you're inclined to go to the other extreme. Understandable, but very smart.


Honibaz

wow this is a lot of bullshit and absolutely nothing in the way of how exactly what the parents are doing is detrimental to the child.

they're using their kid as the sacrificial lamb for a bizarre experiment. This is unconscionable, immoral, and fooking sick.

no they're not, they're raising their child in the way that they think is best. they themselves say it's for the sake of the child.

but i love how you've taken "doesn't scold the kid for playing with the wrong toy and doesn't dress it up exclusively in the color we've arbitrarily decided fits its gender" and made it into monocle-popping UNCONSCIONABLE CRUELTY

seriously dude you have some huge issues with sexuality, and you are being fucking stupid about this, even for you

not at all... It´s BK:s best post ever. He knows what he´s talking about here and you just seem to enjoy arguing for the sake of trying to be unorthodox and special with no insight whatsoever.
You can guide/teach boys how to become real men and respectful against girls, and you can teach girls how to be strong and still wary of boys hormonal frustrations.
Gender is not essentially a social construction.. the human spieces are a kind of animal and the different sexes are designed (or for you atheists: just happen to be) slightly different.
Guidance is essential because we are not in touch with our instincts as much as most animals. Civilisation and industrialisation hasn´t changed our spieces at the core. We are not robots quite yet.