The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

[b.k. barunt]

Didn't see the "reach out" post before, but if it's suggestions you want, there's a plethora of them out there on these complaint threads. Have you responded to any of them? You might have to take the time to read the threads.


Honibaz

Well, BK, I spent quite a bit of time responding to every point you made in a thread, and you obviously didnt read it, because you didnt respond to any of my comments... so before you go suggesting other people arent taking the time to read...perhaps you should.

As useful as just posting that people are always making mistakes, and that they must be asskissing selfrighteous prigs... maybe reading why they feel this way is relevant....or, just skip it for the quick an easy post...

IMO there is not fundamental problem with a perma ban. To think that someone, who after repeated attempts to sabotage the forum will stop after some repeated number of 7 day bans or something is just delusional, or naive at best. Im not suggesting that the perma ban should not be the last resort, and I'd love to see perhaps a more graduated system. However, with most of the people banned that Ive seen. It has been obvious that there is no ban ever, that will make them stop breaking the forum rules, except a forum ban. Using Xtra as an example...Is there anyone that believes anything less than a perma ban would get him to stop crossing the line. That there was any warning possible that would make him come back, and bite his tongue. Not a one year ban, not a ten year ban. Anyone with that much passion for breaking the rules, will continue to break them. That is the purpose of the warnings. So, there is no problem with the perma-ban whatsoever. Its an obvious and necessary evil. Further, to suggest that a website should spend time and resources banning someone for 7 days or some longer period indefinitely is just ridiculous.

For a useful solution to this, perhaps a more graduated banning process is possible. However, the bans would have to get progressively longer to be of any real deterrent. You cant ban someone for a day, and expect any kind of change. If someone is out to cause trouble, they are out to cause trouble, and will never, ever stop doing that. The short bans and warnings, are obviously for those players that can use a warning shot across the bow. Many, who may not even know they broke a rule, and for others that obviously need to know the site is serious about enforcing the rules.

So, suggesting a perma ban is not useful or needed is pointless. This is self evident I believe. However, maybe some longer ban periods could be institued first, such as 6 month, or 1 year even. This if nothing else would relieve some of the severity of the perma ban, and if a player cant come back and play nice after a full year off, then they never will, and the perma ban is clearly the only way to keep them from wasting the mods time.

Most of this is obvious to anyone whos really thought about it. Its fun to try to fight the system, to try to get as much as possible, and hope that the sheer volume of complaints will somehow justify the argument, but reasonable people, even the ones who play such games...and make no mistake...im one of them....know better.

Further, We all know, that no matter what happens, what decisions are made, what rules are out there, there will be an outcry of complaints forever. Always. Some people just like to complain. They always will. Nothing will stop that, except them leaving, or hell freezing over. And even then youll get complaints, because some will argue that hell freezing over was natural, and others will complain that we caused it with C02 emissions. The argument will continue until the last breath is taken, by the last person.

Fitz, i will readily admit to not taking the time to read this or any of your long winded, self satisfied paeans to diarrhea of the mouth. Whatthefuck does that have to do with this thread? If i had indicated that i was interested in what you had to say, and then didn't read your long winded, couldasaidthesamein25wordsorlessbutidosolovetotalk exercizes in verbosity, then there might be a similarity and you would not simply be trolling here, but i didn't indicate such, and i really have no interest in your typical sychophantic drivel.

JCloet indicated an interest in suggestions, and i can see from his post that he did in fact take the time to read at least one of them. This is a gesture of good faith on his part as far as i'm concerned, but has very little, if anything to do with you and me, so please take your trolling elsewhere.


Honibaz

Well, if you read it.... you will see its not trolling. I quickly responded to you, and then explained my opinion on the subject. Look at you though, trying to be all mod-like and such...

I do find it comical that you bash the mods for passing judgment too easily, but then call me a troll, without reading the post. Fooking hilarious. Perhaps you should report this post, and suggest I get banned. You may want to read it though... unless of course you only care about posting a few insults and complaints and moving on.....

I doubt you will, so let me summarize what my post was about.... I do not think there is a fundamental problem with permabans. I then go on to explain the reasons why.

Given the title... it seemed pretty damn on topic to me. But if thats trolling, then I guess Im a troll.

I do love that you go off on me for paragraph after paragraph, explaining how I use too many words though. Thanks for the observation.

Oh for gawdsakes give it a rest fitz. This thread's not about you - you think i'm a malcontent and i think you're a sychophant, so let's just leave it at that and spare everyone the protracted bickering.

Look - you got a fan (assprowler). Maybe he wants to make up for calling you AAPutz.


Still Honibaz

[King_Herpes]

Good points Player, and i would beg to add one more key issue that needs to be aired again:

4. Disciplinary actions should be public. We are affected by the offense, and we are affected by the discipline - we as members have a right to know.


Honibaz

So what do you want to know about my member?

[b.k. barunt]

That is just going to lead to some people questioning every single decision. I still don't understand why it is the public's "right"to know. Discipline actions are between CC and the player.

Bullshit. The behavior that elicits discipline affects the membership, and the discipline most definitely affects the membership. We put our money up for membership status, and we have a right to know what happens to our compatriots here. In real life it's called due process. What we have here now is people disappearing cloak and dagger style like some Stalinist purge. That is utter bullshit.

Mpjh's reference to "personal information" shows just how smart you have to be to get on as a mod - what happens on the open forum is not personal, genius. The posts on this open forum that people are banned for - howthefuck is that "personal information"?


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

Good points Player, and i would beg to add one more key issue that needs to be aired again:

4. Disciplinary actions should be public. We are affected by the offense, and we are affected by the discipline - we as members have a right to know.


Honibaz

So what do you want to know about my member?

Which one?


Honibaz

[King_Herpes]

The curious looking one slightly to the bottom left of the main vein.

[jpcloet]

we have a right to know what happens to our compatriots here.

They can tell you themselves via other methods. I like the idea of disclosing on a profile that a person is on a 24 hour vacation. GUESTS really doesn't say much.

[timmytuttut88]

we have a right to know what happens to our compatriots here.

They can tell you themselves via other methods. I like the idea of disclosing on a profile that a person is on a 24 hour vacation. GUESTS really doesn't say much.

That would definitely help. It would also help if it said "SITE BAN" or "FORUM BAN" or something like that. But, about being provided the information on "how the person got banned" I think it would certainly help if it was made public because as Prowler said it would cut down these threads by at least 3 or 4 pages.

[b.k. barunt]

we have a right to know what happens to our compatriots here.

They can tell you themselves via other methods. I like the idea of disclosing on a profile that a person is on a 24 hour vacation. GUESTS really doesn't say much.

If you would put the type of ban and the reason for such on a member's profile, that would suffice.


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

The curious looking one slightly to the bottom left of the main vein.

Oh that - i thought it was a rather ugly wart.


Honibaz

[Woodruff]

That is just going to lead to some people questioning every single decision. I still don't understand why it is the public's "right"to know. Discipline actions are between CC and the player.

Bullshit. The behavior that elicits discipline affects the membership, and the discipline most definitely affects the membership. We put our money up for membership status, and we have a right to know what happens to our compatriots here. In real life it's called due process. What we have here now is people disappearing cloak and dagger style like some Stalinist purge. That is utter bullshit.

Mpjh's reference to "personal information" shows just how smart you have to be to get on as a mod - what happens on the open forum is not personal, genius. The posts on this open forum that people are banned for - howthefuck is that "personal information"?
Honibaz

For forum offenses, I agree...they've made the post publicly, so referencing it doesn't seem to reveal anything personal. However, not all offenses are forum-related...I'm not sure those should be made public, necessarily.

[AAFitz]

Didn't see the "reach out" post before, but if it's suggestions you want, there's a plethora of them out there on these complaint threads. Have you responded to any of them? You might have to take the time to read the threads.


Honibaz

Well, BK, I spent quite a bit of time responding to every point you made in a thread, and you obviously didnt read it, because you didnt respond to any of my comments... so before you go suggesting other people arent taking the time to read...perhaps you should.

As useful as just posting that people are always making mistakes, and that they must be asskissing selfrighteous prigs... maybe reading why they feel this way is relevant....or, just skip it for the quick an easy post...

IMO there is not fundamental problem with a perma ban. To think that someone, who after repeated attempts to sabotage the forum will stop after some repeated number of 7 day bans or something is just delusional, or naive at best. Im not suggesting that the perma ban should not be the last resort, and I'd love to see perhaps a more graduated system. However, with most of the people banned that Ive seen. It has been obvious that there is no ban ever, that will make them stop breaking the forum rules, except a forum ban. Using Xtra as an example...Is there anyone that believes anything less than a perma ban would get him to stop crossing the line. That there was any warning possible that would make him come back, and bite his tongue. Not a one year ban, not a ten year ban. Anyone with that much passion for breaking the rules, will continue to break them. That is the purpose of the warnings. So, there is no problem with the perma-ban whatsoever. Its an obvious and necessary evil. Further, to suggest that a website should spend time and resources banning someone for 7 days or some longer period indefinitely is just ridiculous.

For a useful solution to this, perhaps a more graduated banning process is possible. However, the bans would have to get progressively longer to be of any real deterrent. You cant ban someone for a day, and expect any kind of change. If someone is out to cause trouble, they are out to cause trouble, and will never, ever stop doing that. The short bans and warnings, are obviously for those players that can use a warning shot across the bow. Many, who may not even know they broke a rule, and for others that obviously need to know the site is serious about enforcing the rules.

So, suggesting a perma ban is not useful or needed is pointless. This is self evident I believe. However, maybe some longer ban periods could be institued first, such as 6 month, or 1 year even. This if nothing else would relieve some of the severity of the perma ban, and if a player cant come back and play nice after a full year off, then they never will, and the perma ban is clearly the only way to keep them from wasting the mods time.

Most of this is obvious to anyone whos really thought about it. Its fun to try to fight the system, to try to get as much as possible, and hope that the sheer volume of complaints will somehow justify the argument, but reasonable people, even the ones who play such games...and make no mistake...im one of them....know better.

Further, We all know, that no matter what happens, what decisions are made, what rules are out there, there will be an outcry of complaints forever. Always. Some people just like to complain. They always will. Nothing will stop that, except them leaving, or hell freezing over. And even then youll get complaints, because some will argue that hell freezing over was natural, and others will complain that we caused it with C02 emissions. The argument will continue until the last breath is taken, by the last person.

Fitz, i will readily admit to not taking the time to read this or any of your long winded, self satisfied paeans to diarrhea of the mouth. Whatthefuck does that have to do with this thread? If i had indicated that i was interested in what you had to say, and then didn't read your long winded, couldasaidthesamein25wordsorlessbutidosolovetotalk exercizes in verbosity, then there might be a similarity and you would not simply be trolling here, but i didn't indicate such, and i really have no interest in your typical sychophantic drivel.

JCloet indicated an interest in suggestions, and i can see from his post that he did in fact take the time to read at least one of them. This is a gesture of good faith on his part as far as i'm concerned, but has very little, if anything to do with you and me, so please take your trolling elsewhere.


Honibaz

Well, if you read it.... you will see its not trolling. I quickly responded to you, and then explained my opinion on the subject. Look at you though, trying to be all mod-like and such...

I do find it comical that you bash the mods for passing judgment too easily, but then call me a troll, without reading the post. Fooking hilarious. Perhaps you should report this post, and suggest I get banned. You may want to read it though... unless of course you only care about posting a few insults and complaints and moving on.....

I doubt you will, so let me summarize what my post was about.... I do not think there is a fundamental problem with permabans. I then go on to explain the reasons why.

Given the title... it seemed pretty damn on topic to me. But if thats trolling, then I guess Im a troll.

I do love that you go off on me for paragraph after paragraph, explaining how I use too many words though. Thanks for the observation.

Oh for gawdsakes give it a rest fitz. This thread's not about you - you think i'm a malcontent and i think you're a sychophant, so let's just leave it at that and spare everyone the protracted bickering.

Look - you got a fan (assprowler). Maybe he wants to make up for calling you AAPutz.


Still Honibaz

well again BK, you did not read my post. It was not about you. AS I said... I simply responded to you quickly, and then discussed the topic of the thread.

My last post was again, just responding to you, all of which could have been avoided, by you just reading the thread, and not calling me a troll...for simply discussing the topic...which is exactly what the thread is for.

I might disagree...but isnt your main point here..the main thing you are fighting your might crusade for....isnt it for some supposed freedom of posting...

Do you not see the foolishness of saying I cant post here, simply because I happen to disagree. I mean...isnt it the right to post what you want that your entire posting here is about...or do you even have any clue what you are arguing anymore...and are you just making stuff up for fun...because I have to say...thats what it seems like.

As far as prowler goes, I think he actually just read what I wrote, and accurately described the situation.

[mpjh]

we have a right to know what happens to our compatriots here.

They can tell you themselves via other methods. I like the idea of disclosing on a profile that a person is on a 24 hour vacation. GUESTS really doesn't say much.

If you would put the type of ban and the reason for such on a member's profile, that would suffice.


Honibaz

Actually, public release of such information could become a form of mod abuse. On the one hand, I stll maintain that it is a score card for the "bad boys." a way of forcing the system to document thier "achievements." On the other hand it could become a method of public ridicule by the mods of certain players. Keeping the information private, and allowing the member to reveal what he/she chooses to other members avoids that distant possibility.

[owenshooter]

Actually, public release of such information could become a form of mod abuse. On the one hand, I stll maintain that it is a score card for the "bad boys." a way of forcing the system to document thier "achievements." On the other hand it could become a method of public ridicule by the mods of certain players. Keeping the information private, and allowing the member to reveal what he/she chooses to other members avoids that distant possibility.

you pretty much just posted without reading my response to your asinine statements, didn't you? you are making a great mod, just keep posting without reading anything in the thread! it may work on the newbs in the society of cooks forum, but don't forget we all know who you are and just because your name is now coloured, your posts still have very little weight or credibility within the forums at large. go back to your one liners and sucking up to the powers that be. you aren't being helpful. and since you are too busy to bother with reading responses to your posts, here it is again!!

Isn't this sort of a score card for the bad boys, and doesn't it reveal personal information about an indivicual?

you are assuming that people that receive punishments are bad. "the bad boys" are the ones here driving this forum and this discussion forward. we may not have doo doo coloured mod names, like yourself, but we are a vital part of this forum. and when you consider the fact that many repeat offenders are treated unjustly due to past rule infractions, and that many additional bans/punishments are unwarranted or unjustified, who are the bad boys? pull your head out mpjh, just because you have a couloured name does not make you any more vital to this forum than we are. look at the most significant changes made within the forums this year, and they are driven by many of the perceived "trouble makers". label us as you will, but it can't change the fact that your one sentence responses to serious questions are nowhere near as helpful as posts by people like timminz, jiminski, et al... a coloured name does not give you license to troll/spam a topic, and it surely desn't make our opinion any more relevant or vital...-0

again, just because your name has a colour, doesn't mean you know what is going on within the forums anymore than you did before.-0

[PLAYER57832]

we have a right to know what happens to our compatriots here.

They can tell you themselves via other methods. I like the idea of disclosing on a profile that a person is on a 24 hour vacation. GUESTS really doesn't say much.

If you would put the type of ban and the reason for such on a member's profile, that would suffice.


Honibaz

Actually, public release of such information could become a form of mod abuse. On the one hand, I stll maintain that it is a score card for the "bad boys." a way of forcing the system to document thier "achievements." On the other hand it could become a method of public ridicule by the mods of certain players. Keeping the information private, and allowing the member to reveal what he/she chooses to other members avoids that distant possibility.

I think it really depends upon the situation. I am not sure we need to know about every forum or chat infraction, for example.

However, I would like to know if someone has been busted for cheating without having to weed through the Cheaters and Abuse thread (hmm.. seems like we had a suggestion a while back to put some kind of mark next to a cheater's name .. at least for 6 months or so).

It would also help to get at least a brief explanation if someone is banned for a long period (a month or more). Just a brief "banned for forum abuse" . If someone is perma-banned, then a bit more is probably warranted.

Privacy issues are an issue, but only really if someone's real information has "gotten out" already. Else, I don't see what the harm is in saying "xyz was banned for repeated forum abuse" or "xyz was banned after conflict with admin", etc.

[mpjh]

Actually, public release of such information could become a form of mod abuse. On the one hand, I stll maintain that it is a score card for the "bad boys." a way of forcing the system to document thier "achievements." On the other hand it could become a method of public ridicule by the mods of certain players. Keeping the information private, and allowing the member to reveal what he/she chooses to other members avoids that distant possibility.

you pretty much just posted without reading my response to your asinine statements, didn't you? you are making a great mod, just keep posting without reading anything in the thread! it may work on the newbs in the society of cooks forum, but don't forget we all know who you are and just because your name is now coloured, your posts still have very little weight or credibility within the forums at large. go back to your one liners and sucking up to the powers that be. you aren't being helpful. and since you are too busy to bother with reading responses to your posts, here it is again!!

Isn't this sort of a score card for the bad boys, and doesn't it reveal personal information about an indivicual?

you are assuming that people that receive punishments are bad. "the bad boys" are the ones here driving this forum and this discussion forward. we may not have doo doo coloured mod names, like yourself, but we are a vital part of this forum. and when you consider the fact that many repeat offenders are treated unjustly due to past rule infractions, and that many additional bans/punishments are unwarranted or unjustified, who are the bad boys? pull your head out mpjh, just because you have a couloured name does not make you any more vital to this forum than we are. look at the most significant changes made within the forums this year, and they are driven by many of the perceived "trouble makers". label us as you will, but it can't change the fact that your one sentence responses to serious questions are nowhere near as helpful as posts by people like timminz, jiminski, et al... a coloured name does not give you license to troll/spam a topic, and it surely desn't make our opinion any more relevant or vital...-0

again, just because your name has a colour, doesn't mean you know what is going on within the forums anymore than you did before.-0

Geez owen - my post was in response to BK's post in which you were not quoted, so of course, I didn't read you.

[TheProwler]

Look - you got a fan (assprowler). Maybe he wants to make up for calling you AAPutz.

AAPutz?!?!?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as prowler goes, I think he actually just read what I wrote, and accurately described the situation.

That is correct AAFitz. As always, I am unbiased and truthful.

[timmytuttut88]

Actually, public release of such information could become a form of mod abuse. On the one hand, I stll maintain that it is a score card for the "bad boys." a way of forcing the system to document thier "achievements." On the other hand it could become a method of public ridicule by the mods of certain players. Keeping the information private, and allowing the member to reveal what he/she chooses to other members avoids that distant possibility.

you pretty much just posted without reading my response to your asinine statements, didn't you? you are making a great mod, just keep posting without reading anything in the thread! it may work on the newbs in the society of cooks forum, but don't forget we all know who you are and just because your name is now coloured, your posts still have very little weight or credibility within the forums at large. go back to your one liners and sucking up to the powers that be. you aren't being helpful. and since you are too busy to bother with reading responses to your posts, here it is again!!

Isn't this sort of a score card for the bad boys, and doesn't it reveal personal information about an indivicual?

you are assuming that people that receive punishments are bad. "the bad boys" are the ones here driving this forum and this discussion forward. we may not have doo doo coloured mod names, like yourself, but we are a vital part of this forum. and when you consider the fact that many repeat offenders are treated unjustly due to past rule infractions, and that many additional bans/punishments are unwarranted or unjustified, who are the bad boys? pull your head out mpjh, just because you have a couloured name does not make you any more vital to this forum than we are. look at the most significant changes made within the forums this year, and they are driven by many of the perceived "trouble makers". label us as you will, but it can't change the fact that your one sentence responses to serious questions are nowhere near as helpful as posts by people like timminz, jiminski, et al... a coloured name does not give you license to troll/spam a topic, and it surely desn't make our opinion any more relevant or vital...-0

again, just because your name has a colour, doesn't mean you know what is going on within the forums anymore than you did before.-0

Geez owen - my post was in response to BK's post in which you were not quoted, so of course, I didn't read you.

Well good job not reading the thread before posting, way to set an example as a junior mod in training.

[b.k. barunt]

It was a rather lame response to my post too, but that's to be expected if you consider the source.


Honibaz

[mpjh]

Yeah, guys, you are such superior posters, guess you will just have to ignore me.

[Mr Changsha]

Yeah, guys, you are such superior posters, guess you will just have to ignore me.

You bring an astounding lack of gravitas to your position mpjh (Junior Mod and Pen Monitor).

Well done!

[mpjh]

I make no claim to gravitas. I am a mod in the Society of Cooks forum only. So you have picked an easy target. Must be a slow night for you all.

[AAFitz]

It was a rather lame response to my post too, but that's to be expected if you consider the source.


Honibaz

Lame? I even used "fooking" hilarious. How can a thread be lame if it has "fooking" in it? I mean just posting that makes it funny,original and clever... Myself I prefer "clucking", "plucking" and "oh fudge"...and granted, I didnt throw in someone elses signature...but im trying to figure out how to make that funny... Ill get there though...be patient.

It did however counter everything you said, and point out that you should maybe actually read a thread, before calling it trolling, especially since that is essentially what you accuse the moderators of every day.

[timmytuttut88]

Yeah, guys, you are such superior posters, guess you will just have to ignore me.

Don't worry, we weren't expecting much from you.

[owenshooter]

Yeah, guys, you are such superior posters, guess you will just have to ignore me.

unfortunately, we are unable to put any mods on foe to ignore their posts... and you are the one that made a blanket statement about "bad boys", which seem a far easier target to pick on than discussing the actual problem/discussion at hand... but hey, you sure do play the victim well...-0

[AndyDufresne]

For the most part, we've taken the stance that Disciplinary Actions are between the user and Conquer Club. For our part, unless there is a public investigation going (a filled out Cheating & Abuse report), the matter is a private one. However, if the user would like to give their disciplinary action information, they by all means can, as it's their choice to remove the privacy from the situation. But from a a site standpoint, we won't be directly giving out information for respect of that privacy.


--Andy

I think it really depends upon the situation. I am not sure we need to know about every forum or chat infraction, for example.

However, I would like to know if someone has been busted for cheating without having to weed through the Cheaters and Abuse thread (hmm.. seems like we had a suggestion a while back to put some kind of mark next to a cheater's name .. at least for 6 months or so).

It would also help to get at least a brief explanation if someone is banned for a long period (a month or more). Just a brief "banned for forum abuse" . If someone is perma-banned, then a bit more is probably warranted.

Privacy issues are an issue, but only really if someone's real information has "gotten out" already. Else, I don't see what the harm is in saying "xyz was banned for repeated forum abuse" or "xyz was banned after conflict with admin", etc.