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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 72o on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:54 am

bedub1 wrote:I just received a formal warning for posting a picture of Michelangelo's David. I'd post a link to Wikipedia so you know what I'm talking about, but I can't do that because it includes a picture of the statue. The statue can also be seen with Googles Image search filter set to "Strict". I'm waiting to try it against a sonicwall content filtering firewall and see if it's "bad".


I understand your predicament, but it's pretty clear in the forum rules:

forum rules wrote:
* Any images or textual descriptions of sexual activity or nudity - nipples, areola, genitals, anuses etc - whether intended as artistic, erotic, pornographic or otherwise are not allowed.
* This includes content posted here and links to other sites. Posting NSFW - "Not Suitable For Work" - does not make it ok for posting.
* If it is ambiguous, we'll ask you to remove it anyway, so "It's a guy's nipple" isn't going to fly. You're just trying to be annoying at that point.
* Posting a painting from the 13th century with exposed nipples to claim that we're evil dictators when we ask you to remove it is also just being annoying, and you're probably just being a troll at that point.

Pornography in chat or in the forums will frequently earn an immediate 24-hour vacation, even without a warning first.


So, I don't think it matters whether Google Image search or sonicwall or netnanny or whoever deems it acceptable, it's apparently not here. Heed the warning by reviewing the rules and your content prior to posting in the future.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby timmytuttut88 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:56 am

72o wrote:Ok, I figured I would take a lot of flak for not having all the facts before speaking.

*facepalm*


72o wrote:They removed the flame wars forum and replaced it with a fluff forum. Several people said, to paraphrase, "I will never come back because of this, even if they change it back".

I don't remember people saying that, but if they did that is very over the top. I remember more of the "I'm leaving because you got rid of FWs".


72o wrote:That 20-page thread is full of useless flames at either side of the argument, with little actual discussion. The main point I got from the pro-Flame Wars side was the insistence that you all should have been notified, been given a valid reason for removing the forum, and apparently all been asked to give your blessing to this decision.

The bolded part is completely wrong. It wasn't a thread, they got rid of an entire forum with around 100000 posts in it.

72o wrote:This doesn't make sense to me. As was mentioned in the thread, there is probably some monetary impact to the site of having an entire subforum that is full of explicit language, racism, bigotry, and god knows what else kinds of insults.

You should just leave. Your posts are just lies made up by your complete ignorance on the situation. Please look things up before posting them. Racism, bigotry, and some forms of explicit language were completely not allowed in FWs.

72o wrote:I don't know

Quite true.

72o wrote:Like it or not, Lack owns this business, and I'm quite certain he doesn't feel that he should have to relinquish any potential additional revenue if the pro-flame wars guys tell him to. Sure, some of them have likely made large investments of time and efforts into this site. That doesn't make it any less his decision. They were permitted to reap the benefits (better gameplay) of their efforts during their time here.

This seems to be the fight song of all the administrators here. "We had no reason to do that, but we did it anyway because we can".


72o wrote:The argument that "this will only increase flames outside of flame wars" misses the point entirely. The flames in flame wars gives the impressions that flames are acceptable on this site. Apparently that is not the intended impression. They don't want flaming on this site at all. So, when the flaming returns outside of flame wars, it is now enforceable with the inevitable bans. The fact that more people are getting banned now is because they couldn't refrain from the flaming that they had become so accustomed to. That seems logical to me.

People got banned from flaming outside of flamewars anyway. Plus you can't say that "the flaming has decreased in these forums", because honestly, i've seen an increase with flames even from people who weren't FW activists.

72o wrote:For the complaints about the number of banned members and the escalating ban getting too high, I will defer my comments until I am adequately prepared for a discussion. I don't have enough information to speak intelligently on the topic. I would appreciate any references to threads/posts/anything that would give me a starting point for understanding the severity of the banning epidemic.

This subject would backtrack all the way to January 2008 when norse was banned. But I don't know all the details about what happened during then because I only had 8 posts during that time. Someone else will probably tell you.

72o wrote:For the record, I'm not a admin/mod multi

You remind me a lot of Twill actually...

72o wrote:I just like to browse the forum while I'm waiting for turns, and found that too many threads are the same folks with the same contempt for the current "administration".

Well most people come out against the people complaining at first, but sooner or later realize that most of us are right when we say there are major problems with how the ban system works.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 4myGod on Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:18 am

72o wrote:
bedub1 wrote:I just received a formal warning for posting a picture of Michelangelo's David. I'd post a link to Wikipedia so you know what I'm talking about, but I can't do that because it includes a picture of the statue. The statue can also be seen with Googles Image search filter set to "Strict". I'm waiting to try it against a sonicwall content filtering firewall and see if it's "bad".

I understand your predicament, but it's pretty clear in the forum rules:

forum rules wrote:
* Any images or textual descriptions of sexual activity or nudity - nipples, areola, genitals, anuses etc - whether intended as artistic, erotic, pornographic or otherwise are not allowed.
* This includes content posted here and links to other sites. Posting NSFW - "Not Suitable For Work" - does not make it ok for posting.
* If it is ambiguous, we'll ask you to remove it anyway, so "It's a guy's nipple" isn't going to fly. You're just trying to be annoying at that point.
* Posting a painting from the 13th century with exposed nipples to claim that we're evil dictators when we ask you to remove it is also just being annoying, and you're probably just being a troll at that point.

Pornography in chat or in the forums will frequently earn an immediate 24-hour vacation, even without a warning first.


So, I don't think it matters whether Google Image search or sonicwall or netnanny or whoever deems it acceptable, it's apparently not here. Heed the warning by reviewing the rules and your content prior to posting in the future.


Yet King_Herpes gets away with posting a full topic on sexual activity:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94063
King_Herpes wrote:So let's all just pretend that upon one glorious day we were presented with the opportunity to engage in vaginal intercourse or penile insertion with another Conquer Club member.


and cowboyz:
viewtopic.php?f=213&t=93732&hilit=penis&start=45#p2153968
cowboyz wrote:I sometimes occasionally suck the penis of strange men. My vote stays with PMC


and GabonX:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=91516&hilit=vagina
GabonX wrote:We haven't had sex but my hand was on her vagina the first two days I knew her.........................................


Where is the justice?
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 72o on Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:22 pm

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:Ok, I figured I would take a lot of flak for not having all the facts before speaking.

*facepalm*
This was a response to Mr. Changsha's commentary. I'd be glad to review whatever information you're privy to that is so persuasive, that I must be an idiot for not knowing. Please provide facts, so that we can discuss.

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:They removed the flame wars forum and replaced it with a fluff forum. Several people said, to paraphrase, "I will never come back because of this, even if they change it back".

I don't remember people saying that, but if they did that is very over the top. I remember more of the "I'm leaving because you got rid of FWs".

Several folks said it in the "Cutesy Club" thread. It became much more serious in the "fix please" and "Flame Wars Removed" thread.

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:That 20-page thread is full of useless flames at either side of the argument, with little actual discussion. The main point I got from the pro-Flame Wars side was the insistence that you all should have been notified, been given a valid reason for removing the forum, and apparently all been asked to give your blessing to this decision.

The bolded part is completely wrong. It wasn't a thread, they got rid of an entire forum with around 100000 posts in it.


I think you misunderstood. The 20-page thread titled "Flame Wars Removed" that was linked in the 9th post of this thread as suggested reading. That's where all of these comments originated. If you have other threads I should read, please let me know.

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:This doesn't make sense to me. As was mentioned in the thread, there is probably some monetary impact to the site of having an entire subforum that is full of explicit language, racism, bigotry, and god knows what else kinds of insults.

You should just leave. Your posts are just lies made up by your complete ignorance on the situation. Please look things up before posting them. Racism, bigotry, and some forms of explicit language were completely not allowed in FWs.
You should have read the sentence after that. Of course since flame wars no longer exists, I can't research what type of threads were there. However, I believe I grasp the concept. If racism and bigotry weren't allowed, I will retract that portion of my statement. I highly doubt that explicit language was moderated in flame wars, it's actually pretty rampant in the remaining parts of the forum.

I'm perfectly fine with leaving if the dissenting individuals would rather not engage in these types of discussions, and resort to attacking the admins and mods personally, and telling everyone that doesn't side with them to leave. It sure does seem that way.

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:I don't know

Quite true.

I see what you did there. Clever.

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:Like it or not, Lack owns this business, and I'm quite certain he doesn't feel that he should have to relinquish any potential additional revenue if the pro-flame wars guys tell him to. Sure, some of them have likely made large investments of time and efforts into this site. That doesn't make it any less his decision. They were permitted to reap the benefits (better gameplay) of their efforts during their time here.

This seems to be the fight song of all the administrators here. "We had no reason to do that, but we did it anyway because we can".

I don't think it's so much that they have no reason to do it, it's that those affected don't like their reasons, or for whatever reason want to continue to push the envelope and see how far they can take things. That's just my take on it. I just read the Dancing Mustard thread, and that's what I drew from it.

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:The argument that "this will only increase flames outside of flame wars" misses the point entirely. The flames in flame wars gives the impressions that flames are acceptable on this site. Apparently that is not the intended impression. They don't want flaming on this site at all. So, when the flaming returns outside of flame wars, it is now enforceable with the inevitable bans. The fact that more people are getting banned now is because they couldn't refrain from the flaming that they had become so accustomed to. That seems logical to me.

People got banned from flaming outside of flamewars anyway. Plus you can't say that "the flaming has decreased in these forums", because honestly, i've seen an increase with flames even from people who weren't FW activists.
Your phrase in quotes should not be in quotes, as that is not what I said. I said it makes sense that more people are getting banned now, as the flaming can now only take place in moderated areas of the forum. Not to mention the fact that many more members are all bent out of shape and continually lashing out at the mods and admins in what I would consider to be pushing the limits.

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:For the complaints about the number of banned members and the escalating ban getting too high, I will defer my comments until I am adequately prepared for a discussion. I don't have enough information to speak intelligently on the topic. I would appreciate any references to threads/posts/anything that would give me a starting point for understanding the severity of the banning epidemic.

This subject would backtrack all the way to January 2008 when norse was banned. But I don't know all the details about what happened during then because I only had 8 posts during that time. Someone else will probably tell you.

Thank you. That was a civil, and informative response. I hope to continue this discussion in the future.


timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:For the record, I'm not a admin/mod multi

You remind me a lot of Twill actually...

I hope that's not an insult to Twill (or to me). :)

timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:I just like to browse the forum while I'm waiting for turns, and found that too many threads are the same folks with the same contempt for the current "administration".

Well most people come out against the people complaining at first, but sooner or later realize that most of us are right when we say there are major problems with how the ban system works.

And it is entirely possible that that might happen again, but at this juncture I can't say it's likely.

Good discussion.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 72o on Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:44 pm

4myGod wrote:
72o wrote:
bedub1 wrote:I just received a formal warning for posting a picture of Michelangelo's David. I'd post a link to Wikipedia so you know what I'm talking about, but I can't do that because it includes a picture of the statue. The statue can also be seen with Googles Image search filter set to "Strict". I'm waiting to try it against a sonicwall content filtering firewall and see if it's "bad".

I understand your predicament, but it's pretty clear in the forum rules:

forum rules wrote:
* Any images or textual descriptions of sexual activity or nudity - nipples, areola, genitals, anuses etc - whether intended as artistic, erotic, pornographic or otherwise are not allowed.
* This includes content posted here and links to other sites. Posting NSFW - "Not Suitable For Work" - does not make it ok for posting.
* If it is ambiguous, we'll ask you to remove it anyway, so "It's a guy's nipple" isn't going to fly. You're just trying to be annoying at that point.
* Posting a painting from the 13th century with exposed nipples to claim that we're evil dictators when we ask you to remove it is also just being annoying, and you're probably just being a troll at that point.

Pornography in chat or in the forums will frequently earn an immediate 24-hour vacation, even without a warning first.


So, I don't think it matters whether Google Image search or sonicwall or netnanny or whoever deems it acceptable, it's apparently not here. Heed the warning by reviewing the rules and your content prior to posting in the future.


Yet King_Herpes gets away with posting a full topic on sexual activity:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94063
King_Herpes wrote:So let's all just pretend that upon one glorious day we were presented with the opportunity to engage in vaginal intercourse or penile insertion with another Conquer Club member.


and cowboyz:
viewtopic.php?f=213&t=93732&hilit=penis&start=45#p2153968
cowboyz wrote:I sometimes occasionally suck the penis of strange men. My vote stays with PMC


and GabonX:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=91516&hilit=vagina
GabonX wrote:We haven't had sex but my hand was on her vagina the first two days I knew her.........................................


Where is the justice?


I certainly won't speak on behalf of the mods on this one, and I can only speculate on what their reasoning might be. Perhaps images are considered more inappropriate than textual references (this would concern me a bit, because it also says textual references are prohibited in the guidelines), or possibly the fact that each of those textual references is only a few days old, maybe they haven't gotten to it yet (although the artwork thread is also very recent). Also, it appears that bedub1's post may have been reported when the others weren't (although the 'reported' post in that thread could have been a joke).

For there to be a basis of comparison for your favoritism allegation, I would want to see explicit images posted by any of your 3 offenders that was allowed, or textual references that had resulted in a wrist-slap for some other member. I like the specific references to evaluate though, thanks for your help.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:03 pm

72o wrote:

I just don't get how you can join a community that's been provided to you free of charge by someone else, is the property of someone else, and then you act like it's your god-given right to say how things should be!

You say that this is because they are trying to address the root of the problem. If you mean that the root of the problems are the mods and admins, why don't you just not log in anymore?


Based on your logic, 72o, "Suggestions and Bug Reports" should be abolished; after all, that's people acting like they have a god-given right to say how things should be. If they have a suggestion or a bug, perhaps they should find a new site and not log on anymore, rather than try to address the root of a problem.

As an example where people turned out to be accurate in their occasional complaints about a mod, there was a mod gal called Wicked. It took a while before her tendency to tantrum hit the wrong people in the wrong ways, but when it did, and her powers were taken away, she began a campaign to take the site down, giving away site secrets and stuff. She still does attempt to take the site down, even though she's now banned, from time to time. As I understand it, the last time, she trashed the site for close to a day, and trashed forums for a little longer, causing admin REAL headaches.

Well, I was not one of those who had any problems with Wicked when she was a mod, but I saw a lot of complaints posted about her - some in forums, some in whispers.

Had admin taken some of those early players' complaints about her more seriously, DESPITE she was "just a volunteer trying to do a job," maybe she would've learned less secrets to give away and use to destroy the site.

Sometimes, those who complain, ARE accurate.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby Kotaro on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:13 pm

Don't worry new guy, there's enough people kissing ass in the hopes of getting a mod spot themselves, so they can feel important and do nothing with their time, to counter balance us assholish "truth speakers".
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:14 pm

I agree that sometimes complainers, or perhaps more appropriately termed, concerned community members, are accurate. However, I think trying to make the connection between concerns about Wicked and possibly undercutting the whole situation are thin. Some people, when they are removed from a position, unfortunately just do not take it well---for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly.


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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:16 pm

72o wrote:They don't want flaming on this site at all. So, when the flaming returns outside of flame wars, it is now enforceable with the inevitable bans.


If that were the case, enforcement would be equitable. As it is, they allow in-game flames as long as it's not gay-bashing; and allow in-forum and in-chat flames as long as it's not either from the wrong person or the 'defender' attacks back.

On my prior "wicked" comment, many of these "complaint" posts point out that whoever Wicked banned in her pre-ban tantrums, remain banned, despite now-conclusive evidence that that person was a poor choice for mod, one who wielded her powers in ways that tear down, rather than benefit, the site.

All those who complained and were bashed for complaining about that "poor volunteer just trying to do her job," turned out to be more correct than they were wrong - even if others just didn't want to hear it.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:37 pm

It says something about the mentality of the admin/mods when they feel the need to keep the charade up of hiding behind a created persona.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:38 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I agree that sometimes complainers, or perhaps more appropriately termed, concerned community members, are accurate. However, I think trying to make the connection between concerns about Wicked and possibly undercutting the whole situation are thin. Some people, when they are removed from a position, unfortunately just do not take it well---for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly.


--Andy


True, Andy.

But some who "have power" also tend to wield the power inequitably, picking up "favorites" (I've called them 'pets' in other discussions) or arbitrarily choosing to ignore the concerns posted by other "concerned community members" (whom they label "complainer" so refuse to listen.)

The tendency to "ignore something from poster b" combined with a "refusal to ignore lesser offenses from poster c" .. it's a systemic problem.

72o is correct, however, when he mentions, "It's no wonder people are being banned." There are those who go power-crazed, get ugly at power-wielding, when they are questioned.

The typical response to specifics that people can mention are also seen in this thread, in some of 72o's response: "I can't speak to that..."

The point, 72o, is there's a lot of stuff going on that alot of people decide they "can't speak to," and if people didn't have the courage to complain about it, you'd never be aware until it happens to you.

I experienced 9 months of consistent b.s. that mods wouldn't address, and a few even encouraged - in forums, in games, and in chat - choosing to remain publicly silent but privately expressing my concerns to those admins and higher mods I thought might do something about stuff. Their answer, it seems, was to remove 'flame wars' which is like popping a zit to remove a tumor - ineffectual as far as the main concern, even if zits aren't that desired.

The "background complaint" method didn't work. So now I've joined the public complaint group. From a critical thinking standpoint, I might've thought what I experienced was just me experiencing... but darn, there sure are a lot of "I can't speak to that" example threads people show... enough of those "I can't speak to that," threads sure do make this critical thinker believe there's a systemic problem, a problem CC admin may or may not realize is systemic. Enough public complaints and they may see it's systemic.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:08 pm

Public Complaints do serve a good purpose, as long as they remain constructive, and not destructive. RE: Wicked vs Major/Severe Infractions Guidelines

Volunteering, for Conquer Club at least, is sometimes a difficult job---more often than we'd like it to be. We'd rather see more people part of the solution, either helping out productively in the forums, e-tickets, or by other general means, or more people stepping up to help out in positions where it is needed (hence the recent "Nominations" we ran not to long ago).


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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 72o on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:16 pm

stahrgazer wrote:72o is correct, however, when he mentions, "It's no wonder people are being banned." There are those who go power-crazed, get ugly at power-wielding, when they are questioned.

The typical response to specifics that people can mention are also seen in this thread, in some of 72o's response: "I can't speak to that..."


I did say that I can't speak for the mods regarding the specifics of bedub's warning vs. the numerous citations of sex-related threads. I'm not a mod, so I can't speak for them. I can speculate reasons, which I did in my answer.

I guess my thought is, let's investigate each of these incidents that "can't be spoken to" individually, and see if we can't produce sound, logical reasons for our complaints, to take those to the mods in a civil, organized manner. I firmly believe that this would be much better received than interjecting hundreds of threads with (to paraphrase liberally) "the mods are a bunch of power-drunk azzholes who ban anyone who gets in their way".

If these discussions are taking place, please, point me in the right direction.


Fruitcake,

I am not a mod or admin. I am not a multi of a mod or admin. I was not put up to this by a mod or admin. No mod or admin has endorsed this discussion, and none of them will provide me with any favors for doing this. This also seems to be a common response. Someone actually doesn't agree with you, and they're automatically a "created persona" of a mod or admin.


I think some take themselves, and this issue, way too seriously. That is all from me for now. Enjoy your forum the way it is, I'll go back to playing games and enjoying the rest of what this site has to offer.
Last edited by 72o on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby Kotaro on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:20 pm

It's truly a wonder why anyone is banned, actually. Most of us, whenever we post, stay inside the rules. However, once people start getting banned for "skirting", aka, "almost" breaking the rules, then the "trolls" come out, and the mods and asskissers get pissy.

Here's a hint; ban someone for breaking the rules, not "almost" breaking them.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby Woodruff on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:24 pm

4myGod wrote:
72o wrote:
bedub1 wrote:I just received a formal warning for posting a picture of Michelangelo's David. I'd post a link to Wikipedia so you know what I'm talking about, but I can't do that because it includes a picture of the statue. The statue can also be seen with Googles Image search filter set to "Strict". I'm waiting to try it against a sonicwall content filtering firewall and see if it's "bad".

I understand your predicament, but it's pretty clear in the forum rules:

forum rules wrote:
* Any images or textual descriptions of sexual activity or nudity - nipples, areola, genitals, anuses etc - whether intended as artistic, erotic, pornographic or otherwise are not allowed.
* This includes content posted here and links to other sites. Posting NSFW - "Not Suitable For Work" - does not make it ok for posting.
* If it is ambiguous, we'll ask you to remove it anyway, so "It's a guy's nipple" isn't going to fly. You're just trying to be annoying at that point.
* Posting a painting from the 13th century with exposed nipples to claim that we're evil dictators when we ask you to remove it is also just being annoying, and you're probably just being a troll at that point.

Pornography in chat or in the forums will frequently earn an immediate 24-hour vacation, even without a warning first.


So, I don't think it matters whether Google Image search or sonicwall or netnanny or whoever deems it acceptable, it's apparently not here. Heed the warning by reviewing the rules and your content prior to posting in the future.


Yet King_Herpes gets away with posting a full topic on sexual activity:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94063
King_Herpes wrote:So let's all just pretend that upon one glorious day we were presented with the opportunity to engage in vaginal intercourse or penile insertion with another Conquer Club member.


and cowboyz:
viewtopic.php?f=213&t=93732&hilit=penis&start=45#p2153968
cowboyz wrote:I sometimes occasionally suck the penis of strange men. My vote stays with PMC


and GabonX:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=91516&hilit=vagina
GabonX wrote:We haven't had sex but my hand was on her vagina the first two days I knew her.........................................


Where is the justice?


Did you report those threads? I ask simply because you're ASSUMING that a moderator ever saw the posts in question. If they haven't seen them, then how could they take action on them?

Now, if we know that they've seen them (i.e., they're involved in the threads), then that is certainly a different issue.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:45 pm

72o wrote:I guess my thought is, let's investigate each of these incidents that "can't be spoken to" individually, and see if we can't produce sound, logical reasons for our complaints, to take those to the mods in a civil, organized manner. I firmly believe that this would be much better received than interjecting hundreds of threads with (to paraphrase liberally) "the mods are a bunch of power-drunk azzholes who ban anyone who gets in their way".

If these discussions are taking place, please, point me in the right direction.



Well, when I first witnessed problems with total moderator bias, I tried to address them, month after month, in private messages. I was informed by two other mods that word did get into the 'mod grapevine' that I was complaining about a select few. What I was experiencing, thus expressing concerns about, got worse; I was no longer merely witnessing moderator bias, I was experiencing it, even if only mild. I was informed by several players that some of the mods were instigating some of the stuff I was experiencing. I personally experienced some of the mods performing some of the stuff I was expressing concerns about.

Like I said, your statement 'it's no wonder people are being banned,' is an accurate depiction of SOME mods' tendency to be so power-crazed that they refuse to accept any criticism of ideas and instead, make all those who express the concerns (about them, their methods, or their lack of equitable moderation) into evil CC-tear-downers. Or, so power-crazed that they do ignore stuff from their 'pets' while bashing those who oppose.
them or their pets.

Seeing nothing being done on my original concerns, and an increase of those types of things with indications mods added to my building sense of indignation and disgust.

I elevated my concerns to admins (first Twill, then Hyrasri) neither of whom even had the decency to respond, not even with a "Thanks for the information," or "Message received," much less a "Hmm, maybe we'll keep an eye out for this sort of behavior."

I saw increased problems, not lesser. I ended up leaving CC for a time; a few friends I keep in contact with told me, "the site is getting friendlier, please come back."

So I came back. Took a look at complaint threads to see just how much more "friendly" the site is getting. Did so with every hope that I'd be forced to apologize to the new regime for any unfriendly comment I'd ever made about any admin or mods.

Reading what's still occurring made me realize, it's not getting friendlier, mods are just getting better at justifying specific targeting. Eliminating flame wars doesn't effect me one way or another; but to say eliminating flame wars would eradicate flaming from the site is totally bogus, considering the amount of flames that STILL get tossed off with, "use ignore." Even the "specific rules" about bigotry, sexual stuff and such are ignored for one user, punished to the max from another user.

Someone cannot show a pic of a famous painting that happens to glorify humanity, including the entire body, but someone else can "f*ck that bitch up her ass until she bleeds and screams," and WHICH one is more "pornographic"?

IF someone complains about a popular player or mod, that thread gets hit with flame after flame, from those on the "right side;" flames that are not addressed unless the original defender happens to make a counter-strike, THEN either that person gets warned, or the thread gets closed, or both.

So. For me, discussions that USED to take place in pm, are now out in the open. I merely exclude mod and player names; but if anyone wants the info, they can contact Hyrasri, Twill, or some of the mods who do know the instances I've expressed concerns about here.

As for those earlier private discussions that took place, I did have two mods willing to discuss the issues I was expressing. Their "sound, logical reasoning," for what I was seeing was, "that's a popular mod, so be careful saying anything against or you'll experience reprisal."

They were correct that I'd experience reprisals. The reprisals just weren't in "stahr gets banned" format because I rarely cross those lines into bannable offenses. Instead, the reprisals were an escalated scale of instigating and ignoring others' warn-and-bannable offenses against me. i.e. what I was originally complaining about, got worse, because I'd complained that no action was being taken.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:55 pm

18:50:03 ‹t-o-m› Haha!
11/08/2009 18:50:06 ‹t-o-m› This is hilarious.
11/08/2009 18:50:35 ‹t-o-m› They've promoted someone to mod status and this same user posted porn in chat the other day


I guess we need an, "It's no wonder people are complaining about cc admin's moderator policies" thread.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby notyou2 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:46 pm

720 would you complain if your friend, loved one, or next door neighbour disappeared in the middle of the night and you don't know why?????

The situation here has a lot of parallels to that statement.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:09 pm

I have info that gives me a new hope for this site's moderator maturity. I'll post parts of the livechat:

11/08/2009 20:32:37 ‹mod› you may not accept it...but
11/08/2009 20:32:55 ‹mod› I am appologizing because of my behaviour where -censored- was concerned
11/08/2009 20:33:19 ‹mod› I realized after a bit that -censored- was indeed a bad person and I am sorry for the way I treated you
11/08/2009 20:33:23 * mod quit
11/08/2009 20:33:38 ‹stahrgazer› thank you
11/08/2009 20:35:05 ‹mod› anyway just wanted to say sorry
11/08/2009 20:35:13 ‹stahrgazer› thank you. i'm shocked
11/08/2009 20:35:19 ‹stahrgazer› but it gives me hope for this site
11/08/2009 20:35:24 ‹stahrgazer› any person can make errors
11/08/2009 20:35:45 ‹stahrgazer› my problem was i was seeing a trend of moderator favoritism; that stuff was a big but not ONLY part of what i was seeing
11/08/2009 20:36:15 ‹mod› yes..well he anyway it isnt important..point is I see how wrong I was to protect -censored- for what he did
11/08/2009 20:38:27 ‹stahrgazer› my point is always
11/08/2009 20:38:37 ‹stahrgazer› if mods addressed the stuff when it happens, EVEN if they like the ppl
11/08/2009 20:38:42 ‹stahrgazer› it'd be less
11/08/2009 20:38:48 ‹stahrgazer› it wouldn't go on for months and months
11/08/2009 20:38:57 ‹mod› ya i know
11/08/2009 20:42:31 ‹mod› anyway thanks for accepting my appology..at least I think you did?


It takes a mature person to admit a wrong, so this apology really does give me new hope for CC. I may even consider purchasing premium and getting involved in tournaments again.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 4myGod on Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:30 pm

Woodruff wrote:Did you report those threads? I ask simply because you're ASSUMING that a moderator ever saw the posts in question. If they haven't seen them, then how could they take action on them?

Now, if we know that they've seen them (i.e., they're involved in the threads), then that is certainly a different issue.


I stopped reporting, all my reports kept getting closed even though the users were blatantly breaking the rules. Clapper posts in the "which cc member would you have sex with" discussion.

It's quite obvious, not only in this case that the mods either:
A. only ever reading posts of the people who voice concerns against the mods.
B. punishing people based on whether or not they voice concerns against the mods.

Loads of people are breaking the rules daily. An image that contains the statue of David, depending on the context, would seem far less offensive than someone writing "I suck penis" and discussing who on CC they would want to have Vaginal Intercourse with. Either way, if you banned them both equally at least they are both being punished, but you don't ban those who have textual descriptions, only those who post an image of david... which is art.

The rules though are so general that if a mod wanted to he could ban anyone on this site, including you Woodruff, the problem is the mods don't want to, they want to only ban certain people who stand up to them. Is there a super rule "do not question a mod"? This rule goes beyond all others and is the true reason for the bannings?

AndyDufresne wrote:Volunteering, for Conquer Club at least, is sometimes a difficult job---more often than we'd like it to be.


You have misguided thinking. Why is clapper considered a volunteer but owenshooter isn't? I would be willing to take a bet that some of our regular posters visit the forum more often than some of our mods/admins. Not just visit, but read every post, reply to nearly all of them and write meaningful and well researched replies to some of them. However what separates them from a mod? They don't have power. If someone makes fun of them they can't ban the person, they are open and defenseless. You mods have Team CC, they don't have any team down here in the community area, only a couple of friends who don't attack them when they post.

AndyDufresne wrote:We'd rather see more people part of the solution, either helping out productively in the forums, e-tickets, or by other general means, or more people stepping up to help out in positions where it is needed (hence the recent "Nominations" we ran not to long ago).


You have a ton of people willing to help and make this site better, but you ignore and ban them, perhaps you are too busy to read all the posts they spent hours formulating. By "you" I mean the 20+ mods/admins. You ignore a lot of people on this site to the extent that many of us don't think you do want a solution to any problem and have stopped voicing concerns or have voiced them in a less productive manner. Perhaps again this comes back to being too busy. So how about you figure out a solution to your schedule problem, being too busy, and then we figure out a solution to the forums.

Team CC is leading this site. If you want solutions then instead of running and hiding from mistakes or banning those people who stand up to you, why not confront them, not in private chat where nobody can see but in public chat? How about instead of a user posting asking for opinions on a subject the admin/mod posts. Why not create a forum and only invite those people are complaining in vain, such as Dancing Mustard, pimpdave, Mr Changsha, jiminski, owenshooter, ron. Why not bring them together and make some changes on this site, and face the problems they have. It can be like a courtroom, where those users can bring to the table their concerns and we all can watch how CC handles them, without being ignored. For example, what happened with t-o-m who got banned from the site because of a mods mistake? How is he doing? or Dancing Mustard who got banned for standing up to the mods, when is he coming back? Hell we can even get a user appointed jury for this "courtroom" forum.

A cop does not have the authority to give someone life in jail, only to turn someone in for doing something wrong. As well a person does not receive life in jail without first being able to plea his case and bring to the stand witnesses who can testify for him... in the public eye.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby timmytuttut88 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:53 pm

72o wrote:
timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:Ok, I figured I would take a lot of flak for not having all the facts before speaking.

*facepalm*
This was a response to Mr. Changsha's commentary. I'd be glad to review whatever information you're privy to that is so persuasive, that I must be an idiot for not knowing. Please provide facts, so that we can discuss.

Well just the fact that you came in here trying to prove us wrong when you don't know all the facts is pretty ridiculous.


72o wrote:
timmytuttut88 wrote:
72o wrote:That 20-page thread is full of useless flames at either side of the argument, with little actual discussion. The main point I got from the pro-Flame Wars side was the insistence that you all should have been notified, been given a valid reason for removing the forum, and apparently all been asked to give your blessing to this decision.

The bolded part is completely wrong. It wasn't a thread, they got rid of an entire forum with around 100000 posts in it.


I think you misunderstood. The 20-page thread titled "Flame Wars Removed" that was linked in the 9th post of this thread as suggested reading. That's where all of these comments originated. If you have other threads I should read, please let me know.

Ah ok, I guess I was thinking of something else.

72o wrote:I highly doubt that explicit language was moderated in flame wars, it's actually pretty rampant in the remaining parts of the forum.

Well explicit language was allowed, but certain things weren't if it went over the top. Like the banned posting personal information in june of last year.

72o wrote:I don't think it's so much that they have no reason to do it, it's that those affected don't like their reasons, or for whatever reason want to continue to push the envelope and see how far they can take things. That's just my take on it. I just read the Dancing Mustard thread, and that's what I drew from it.

Well some people just get banned for "trolling" and don't even get showed a specific thing they did wrong. I know that t-o-m didn't have a specific post e got banned for, TWill just insisted he was a "troll" despite the fact that he was a tournament runner and a map maker.
72o wrote:Your phrase in quotes should not be in quotes, as that is not what I said. I said it makes sense that more people are getting banned now, as the flaming can now only take place in moderated areas of the forum. Not to mention the fact that many more members are all bent out of shape and continually lashing out at the mods and admins in what I would consider to be pushing the limits.

Actually I wasn't quoting you, but I was quoting the argument for getting rid of FWs in the first place. You can already tell that flaming here isnt exactly at an all time low. So it makes it fairly obvious that getting rid of FWs really didn't make much of a difference.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:17 pm

For those who don't "get it"... that I received an apology from a moderator who admitted having played favs, does reflect evidence that somewhere on CC, mods might just play favs.

If mods admit they might play favs, then aren't people justified to complain about it when it occurs?

But back to my point for THIS particular post: that a mod did admit error, does give me new hope that CC practices could change... eliminate the favs-playing.

stahrgazer wrote:I have info that gives me a new hope for this site's moderator maturity. I'll post parts of the livechat:

11/08/2009 20:32:37 ‹mod› you may not accept it...but
11/08/2009 20:32:55 ‹mod› I am appologizing because of my behaviour where -censored- was concerned
11/08/2009 20:33:19 ‹mod› I realized after a bit that -censored- was indeed a bad person and I am sorry for the way I treated you
11/08/2009 20:33:23 * mod quit
11/08/2009 20:33:38 ‹stahrgazer› thank you
11/08/2009 20:35:05 ‹mod› anyway just wanted to say sorry
11/08/2009 20:35:13 ‹stahrgazer› thank you. i'm shocked
11/08/2009 20:35:19 ‹stahrgazer› but it gives me hope for this site
11/08/2009 20:35:24 ‹stahrgazer› any person can make errors
11/08/2009 20:35:45 ‹stahrgazer› my problem was i was seeing a trend of moderator favoritism; that stuff was a big but not ONLY part of what i was seeing
11/08/2009 20:36:15 ‹mod› yes..well he anyway it isnt important..point is I see how wrong I was to protect -censored- for what he did
11/08/2009 20:38:27 ‹stahrgazer› my point is always
11/08/2009 20:38:37 ‹stahrgazer› if mods addressed the stuff when it happens, EVEN if they like the ppl
11/08/2009 20:38:42 ‹stahrgazer› it'd be less
11/08/2009 20:38:48 ‹stahrgazer› it wouldn't go on for months and months
11/08/2009 20:38:57 ‹mod› ya i know
11/08/2009 20:42:31 ‹mod› anyway thanks for accepting my appology..at least I think you did?


It takes a mature person to admit a wrong, so this apology really does give me new hope for CC. I may even consider purchasing premium and getting involved in tournaments again.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 4myGod on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:31 pm

stahrgazer wrote:For those who don't "get it"... that I received an apology from a moderator who admitted having played favs, does reflect evidence that somewhere on CC, mods might just play favs.

If mods admit they might play favs, then aren't people justified to complain about it when it occurs?

But back to my point for THIS particular post: that a mod did admit error, does give me new hope that CC practices could change... eliminate the favs-playing.

stahrgazer wrote:I have info that gives me a new hope for this site's moderator maturity. I'll post parts of the livechat:

11/08/2009 20:32:37 ‹mod› you may not accept it...but
11/08/2009 20:32:55 ‹mod› I am appologizing because of my behaviour where -censored- was concerned
11/08/2009 20:33:19 ‹mod› I realized after a bit that -censored- was indeed a bad person and I am sorry for the way I treated you
11/08/2009 20:33:23 * mod quit
11/08/2009 20:33:38 ‹stahrgazer› thank you
11/08/2009 20:35:05 ‹mod› anyway just wanted to say sorry
11/08/2009 20:35:13 ‹stahrgazer› thank you. i'm shocked
11/08/2009 20:35:19 ‹stahrgazer› but it gives me hope for this site
11/08/2009 20:35:24 ‹stahrgazer› any person can make errors
11/08/2009 20:35:45 ‹stahrgazer› my problem was i was seeing a trend of moderator favoritism; that stuff was a big but not ONLY part of what i was seeing
11/08/2009 20:36:15 ‹mod› yes..well he anyway it isnt important..point is I see how wrong I was to protect -censored- for what he did
11/08/2009 20:38:27 ‹stahrgazer› my point is always
11/08/2009 20:38:37 ‹stahrgazer› if mods addressed the stuff when it happens, EVEN if they like the ppl
11/08/2009 20:38:42 ‹stahrgazer› it'd be less
11/08/2009 20:38:48 ‹stahrgazer› it wouldn't go on for months and months
11/08/2009 20:38:57 ‹mod› ya i know
11/08/2009 20:42:31 ‹mod› anyway thanks for accepting my appology..at least I think you did?


It takes a mature person to admit a wrong, so this apology really does give me new hope for CC. I may even consider purchasing premium and getting involved in tournaments again.


It is a good step in the right direction, but I think it might be just a step, and by only one mod. It is good that you got an apology, but people like t-o-m get raped and then were left to cry alone in the shower. A lot needs to change around here I think. Right now mods are like people, having friends and people who they personally don't take offensive and other people who they take much more offensive. Thus the banning ends up being everyone they "think" is bad, because everyone is breaking the rules. Mods need to be more like robots, but they can't see that they are viewing things with a huge bias.

I think in the case of the mods they have certain members who rub them the wrong way, whether they realize it or not. Members who perhaps are very vocal or are very blunt and gather quite a lot of attention from the community, people like Dancing Mustard. These people worry the mods slightly, so when a mod sees one of this persons posts they take things more serious than another persons. So they end up judging people differently than others.

If Dancing Mustard posted: "mods what are you doing?" The mods might see this with a sarcastic tone or like a stab at them. However, if saxitoxin posted the same thing: "mods what are you doing?" It wouldn't be seen so much as a stab because the mods already know he is like a puppy and obsessed with them. So they would imagine a tone of "what is on the agenda?" or "what can I help with?" The literal "what are you doing?" without sarcasm.

Therefor the strong voiced guys end up getting banned, because we are all breaking the rules, but some of us look worse doing it. This needs to change, so the rules are more specific so that we are banned for breaking rules and not for looking bad when we break the rules that everyone's breaking
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby Woodruff on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:39 pm

4myGod wrote:The rules though are so general that if a mod wanted to he could ban anyone on this site, including you Woodruff, the problem is the mods don't want to


Heh...don't make the mistake of believing I haven't received temporary bans. I have. One of which I certainly deserved.

4myGod wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Volunteering, for Conquer Club at least, is sometimes a difficult job---more often than we'd like it to be.


You have misguided thinking. Why is clapper considered a volunteer but owenshooter isn't?


This seems rather obvious to me...because clapper has responsibilities to the site and owenshooter doesn't. It has nothing to do with frequency of posting.

4myGod wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:We'd rather see more people part of the solution, either helping out productively in the forums, e-tickets, or by other general means, or more people stepping up to help out in positions where it is needed (hence the recent "Nominations" we ran not to long ago).


You have a ton of people willing to help and make this site better, but you ignore and ban them


True, there are a ton of people willing to help and make this site better...an absolute untapped resource. As to those banned, though...SOME of those banned might have been willing to help make this site better. I don't actually believe that would apply to most of them, though. Most of those banned are more interested in self-aggrandizement than anything else, in my opinion.

4myGod wrote:A cop does not have the authority to give someone life in jail, only to turn someone in for doing something wrong.


Nor do the mods...only the admins can do this.
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Re: It's no wonder people are being banned...

Postby 4myGod on Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:09 pm

Woodruff wrote:
4myGod wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Volunteering, for Conquer Club at least, is sometimes a difficult job---more often than we'd like it to be.


You have misguided thinking. Why is clapper considered a volunteer but owenshooter isn't?


This seems rather obvious to me...because clapper has responsibilities to the site and owenshooter doesn't. It has nothing to do with frequency of posting.

I got us some definitions of volunteer and volunteering:
1. A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily
2. To perform or offer to perform a service of one's own free will.
3. To do charitable or helpful work without pay

Quite a few people on this site are volunteers. They offer services for free, they help without pay, a lot more than some of the mods I would say. Yet, they don't have all the extra perks of being a mod. Andy doesn't come into threads defending them, and if they make a mistake they get banned. If a mod makes a mistake they cover it up.

Woodruff wrote:
4myGod wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:We'd rather see more people part of the solution, either helping out productively in the forums, e-tickets, or by other general means, or more people stepping up to help out in positions where it is needed (hence the recent "Nominations" we ran not to long ago).


You have a ton of people willing to help and make this site better, but you ignore and ban them


True, there are a ton of people willing to help and make this site better...an absolute untapped resource. As to those banned, though...SOME of those banned might have been willing to help make this site better. I don't actually believe that would apply to most of them, though. Most of those banned are more interested in self-aggrandizement than anything else, in my opinion.

I agree, not EVERYONE who was banned will be an asset to the site. I have not been at this site as long as you all have so I don't know the people who were banned in the past, only the ones who are being banned almost daily currently. I think many of the bannings of recent are unjustified and against people who are attempting to make this place better, some for themselves, some for everyone. Just because someone wants to make this site better for themselves though doesn't make them bad, they know what they want, and there are probably others out there like them, so making the site better for themselves would also make it better for others.

Woodruff wrote:
4myGod wrote:A cop does not have the authority to give someone life in jail, only to turn someone in for doing something wrong.


Nor do the mods...only the admins can do this.


In the rest of my post I explained how a person when turned in by that cop would have a trial. The judge doesn't look at a case and just say "ok life in prison" when a cop turns someone in.

To clarify:
Cop = mod
Judge = admin

If this is the case the cop is turning someone in and the judge is giving a life sentence, or the judge is finding people directly and giving them a life sentence. If this was the same in real life what keeps a judge who doesn't like his neighbor from handing him a life sentence?

I know it would be unrealistic to think we will have a court case every time someone is going to be banned, however they aren't allowing anyone to question their decision, so they can get away with anything, and after the recent bannings and mistake bannings many members of the community no longer trust the authorities and have no way to petition against rulings they have made.

So perhaps a forum where members of the community could go to petition publicly against these bannings, and be heard and considered. If a forum like this existed it could certainly clean up the General Discussion forum from having all of these "where is ..." and "why is... a guest?"
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