German/Italian Unif.[D, Gp, Gr] BETA, all files p.1

[number five]

so if you had green and gray you would get bonus of 12?

[RjBeals]

georgous maps. well done. the only thing i would suggest is try to blend the river into the ocean a bit more. It's tough to do and make it look good, but it can be done.

[Industrial Helix]

If you held green and gray, you'd get either 8 or 11, depending on whether you hold the optional territories.

RJ, I see what you mean and yeah, its probably worth it. Once these get GP'd I'll hit it with the graphics.

[iancanton]

This map is progressing so much faster than 13 Colonies... but I think its partially because I'm not making a lot of the same mistakes.

there's no substitute for experience. u spent a lot of time early on experimenting with various things to make the map look good, which had to be discarded once the advanced graphics analysis started.

If you held green and gray, you'd get either 8 or 11, depending on whether you hold the optional territories.

what happens if u hold green and purple? my feeling is that the +2 extra bonus for nice & savoy ought to be given only once, so that the total bonus is +10 and not +12. we need to say so somehow on the map, since it isn't completely clear just now.

might solferino be a more appropriate name for the lombardy region? it has the advantage that the region doesn't have a similar name to the bonus zone of which it is a part. the location is also correct for solferino, though u might like to change the border so that, of the 3 lombardy regions, only custoza connnects to venezia.

u didn't like this idea?

on the germany map, salzberg has somehow been transformed into salzbuttrg instead of salzburg, while württemberg still needs that extra t. the west preussen colour on the map doesn't match that in the legend.

try extending baden so that it meets plfalz and turns württemberg into a non-border region, as shown on the map below. is it worth removing the bridge to elsass? this bonus zone will still be fiendish to hold.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/germany/xbaden.html

ian.

[Industrial Helix]

Ian, I think I missed the bit on Solferino, but I changed it this round. I also adopted most of your suggestions save for the second bridge across the Rhine, now extending from Baden. I think two bridges are necessary as to reflect the invasion of France in the Franco-Prussian War.

I definitely agree on only receiving the bonus once though the notion of securing it twice is interesting... I mean, I France turned the war around and invaded Prussia than it would have been doing extremely well, the double bonus reflects this. I dunno... I'm uncertain as how this might play out in the XML and whether or not the XMl will allow it to only be awarded once. If any XML experts can give me some thoughts on this let me know.

RJ- I ran a blur on the river into the sea... let me know how you think it is. It seems better to me, but another set of eyes are always appreciated.

[bigimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Shone/GermanUnificationLARGE-13.jpg[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Shone/ItalianUnificationLARGE-11.jpg[/bigimg]

[ender516]

I definitely agree on only receiving the bonus once though the notion of securing it twice is interesting... I mean, I France turned the war around and invaded Prussia than it would have been doing extremely well, the double bonus reflects this. I dunno... I'm uncertain as how this might play out in the XML and whether or not the XMl will allow it to only be awarded once. If any XML experts can give me some thoughts on this let me know.

I won't claim to be an expert, but I think getting the "With ..." bonuses awarded only once is a matter of using "super-continents" and setting overrides.
It is a little fussier to code when the extra amount to award for the "With ..." zone depends on the base zone it is combining with. For example, Elsaß Lothringen adds one to the three for L'Empire des Français, but adds two to the two for Preußische Provinzen von Rhein. So, when you have them all, what should you get? Clearly three for L'Empire des Français plus two for Preußische Provinzen von Rhein, but the extra could be one, two, or three. (Heck, if you wanted, you could make it even more, but I don't see why you would.) Decide what outcome you want and I can code it up for you.
It is a little simpler to code if the "With ..." bonus is the same no matter what base zone it goes with and is only awarded once, because I think it can then be done without overrides, but simpler code is no reason to set the bonuses that way.

RJ- I ran a blur on the river into the sea... let me know how you think it is. It seems better to me, but another set of eyes are always appreciated.

I'm not RJ, but It looks good to me (just north of Romagna, right?). I would do the same sort of thing on the German map as well: some of those rivers almost seem cut off from the sea (the branch nearest Königsberg is the worst offender).

[Raskholnikov]

A few remarks on the German territory names:

Deutsche Nordzustande should more accurately be "Deutsche Hansestadte"

Deutsche Sudstaaten should be "Suddeutsche Staaten"

OstpreSen should be "OstpreuSen"

PreuSiche Provinzen von Rhein should be "PreuSiche Rheinprovinzen"

Hesse should be "Hessen"

Thuringia should be "Thuringen"

Good luck!

R

[Industrial Helix]

Ender - Yeah I think the Italian river looks decent for now, we'll see what RJ's eye picks up. As for the coding, I'll give it a look when i get to the XML stamp and probably request assistance. But I think you're right, one can override the other. The trick i figuring out which overrides which... I think the historical defender ought to override the german/italian bonus. Which as of now, is what I will do. To be honest, once a player is in a position to hold both bonus regions, he's likely got a strong hold on the game anyway.

Rash - Thanks so much. I've got Nobodies checking my bad Italian and he corrected a lot of my mistakes on the Italian map, thanks for helping out with the German. Do you speak German, btw? I'll implement them with the next version.

[Raskholnikov]

Yes, i'm part German and lived in Germany. Dont forget the Umlauts (two little points above certain letters like u) which i couldnt put because i dont have them here. I'll check out the next version and let you know if something needs to be changed. Good maps!

[Industrial Helix]

Thanks Rash, I made the changes you suggested but I think I'm missing a ü somewhere (for me its just ctrl+u and then type the letter you want with them). Let me know what you think.

I also fixed some of the rivers so they blend in better.

[bigimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Shone/GermanUnificationLARGE-15.jpg[/bigimg]

[Raskholnikov]

Deutsche Hansestadte and Thuringen: both these need Umlauts (..) on top of the underlined letters. Great job otherwise!

[Industrial Helix]

Thanks Rash. I made the changes on my copy, you'll see them in the next version.

[Industrial Helix]

Bumping the thread cause I think Germany is about good for gameplay. Italy, as I recall has been given the approval. We just need the one stamp for the thread.

Also, I've got another announcement... Gilligan will be doing the XML for these maps

[AndyDufresne]

Do Galizien and Schlesien border? The mountain is there, but it looks like they could touch on a small tip.

And Breslau and Posen---they don't border, correct?

Similar Nurnberg and Sachsen don't border, correct?

Those are areas I'd maybe clean up a little bit to make sure the game play isn't confusing.

============

The mix between highlighted and highlighted text is kind of strange on the eye---mostly the game objective and title vs the legend and territory names.

Have you also considered using dashes instead of dots for territory connections? I feel like dashes might be more cohesive, but this is a minor point and fine either way.


--Andy

[iancanton]

galizien was a province of austria, not of hungary.

http://www.ieg-maps.uni-mainz.de/mapsp/ ... Serie2.htm
http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/ ... alicia.htm

this leaves hungary with only 2 regions, so a starting neutral will be needed on magyar kiralysag.

swap the bonuses for east and west prussia. east prussia is isolated and easy to hold, so it ought to have a smaller bonus than west prussia. i'd like france's bonus to be reduced too, since it'll be difficult to dislodge someone from that corner.

on the italy map, i recommend 3 start positions on magenta, solferino and custoza to stop someone from dropping the +3 lombardo-venetien bonus (there's a 6%+ chance of player 1 starting with one or more of the lombardo-venetien, magyar or ducati di toscana bonuses). the proposed 3 start positions will be ignored in games of 4 or more players.

on a real map, custoza is almost directly between solferino and venezia. i know that u want to have a direct route from venezia to custoza to torino for historical purposes. can u cut off the westernmost part of venezia and give it to custoza, so that solferino no longer borders venezia? this will make the real location of custoza part of our map's custoza region, while keeping the desired historical attack route - it's not ideal because these battles were fought near small places that did not give their names to the entire regions shown here, but might be the best compromise that we have.

ian.

[the.killing.44]

The rivers still don't blend in enough. It makes it look like you painted on top of the divider between regions instead of the river BEING the divider.

[Industrial Helix]

Alright guys, I anticipated being able to access my thread during the shut down and working on the crits over the break. BUt, things as they are, I'll have a new version up in a couple of days.

For the recap, Italy is good for gameplay. Are there any GAMEPLAY concerns about Germany?

I'll tackle the graphical changes mentioned here, but until it hits the graphics workshop I'm going to hold off on any further suggestions.

[iancanton]

galizien was a province of austria, not of hungary.

http://www.ieg-maps.uni-mainz.de/mapsp/ ... Serie2.htm
http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/ ... alicia.htm

this leaves hungary with only 2 regions, so a starting neutral will be needed on magyar kiralysag.

swap the bonuses for east and west prussia. east prussia is isolated and easy to hold, so it ought to have a smaller bonus than west prussia. i'd like france's bonus to be reduced too, since it'll be difficult to dislodge someone from that corner.

on the italy map, i recommend 3 start positions on magenta, solferino and custoza to stop someone from dropping the +3 lombardo-venetien bonus (there's a 6%+ chance of player 1 starting with one or more of the lombardo-venetien, magyar or ducati di toscana bonuses). the proposed 3 start positions will be ignored in games of 4 or more players.

on a real map, custoza is almost directly between solferino and venezia. i know that u want to have a direct route from venezia to custoza to torino for historical purposes. can u cut off the westernmost part of venezia and give it to custoza, so that solferino no longer borders venezia? this will make the real location of custoza part of our map's custoza region, while keeping the desired historical attack route - it's not ideal because these battles were fought near small places that did not give their names to the entire regions shown here, but might be the best compromise that we have.

If you held green and gray, you'd get either 8 or 11, depending on whether you hold the optional territories.

what happens if u hold green and purple? my feeling is that the +2 extra bonus for nice & savoy ought to be given only once, so that the total bonus is +10 and not +12. we need to say so somehow on the map, since it isn't completely clear just now.

ian.

[Industrial Helix]

Ian, thanks for the reminders, all the changes have been made.

Killing, I touched ont he rivers and they're still not very good. I will address these better come Graphics time.

Andy, I clarified those borders as suggested except Posen and Breslau, seems pretty clear to me. As for the glow... I'll work on it in the Graphics Forum.

And Rash, I made the vocab changes you suggested, thanks!

[bigimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Shone/GermanUnificationLARGE-16.jpg[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Shone/ItalianUnificationLARGE-12.jpg[/bigimg]

[iancanton]

two further suggestions for austria, which has 7 regions, all of them borders: the first is to increase the bonus to +6 and the second is to extend the boehmervald-sumava mountains so that prag no longer borders oberpfalz. both make austria slightly stronger. i believe they'll improve the map, whose gameplay is already solid enough to be stamped.

http://www.czech-mountains.eu/sumava-en/guide.html

i propose changing the wording of the split bonus text to: if a split bonus is held in addition to BOTH zones, then the larger bonus applies. zones is preferable to regions because the latter term is used in the cc instructions to describe individual troop locations.

the best place for these maps is now the graphics workshop. onward and upward!



ian.

[Industrial Helix]

Awesome! Thanks Ian! Now I'm ready for the longest of the hauls, the graphics nitpick.

Overall, I'm reasonably happy with the graphics... I dunno, what do you guys think?

[bigimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Shone/GermanUnificationLARGE-17.jpg[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/Shone/ItalianUnificationLARGE-13.jpg[/bigimg]

[FarangDemon]

Thanks for all of your hard work on this map. I think it is looking great and represents an interesting chapter of history that I can't wait to experience on CC.

I have two place names suggestions and an additional game play suggestion:

PLACE NAMES

• The terms Ostpreussen and Westpreussen are already recognized to refer to different regions as those you use them for in your map.
  
  
• Breslau is actually a city inside the province of Schlesien. This part-whole relationship is not indicated in the map.

Ostpreussen and Westpreussen

The terms Ostpreussen and Westpreussen ("East and West Prussia") actually refer to the division of Preussen province itself, not to the larger groupings you have assigned on your map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prussiamap.gif

After taking over Royal Prussia or Polish Prussia, the original Duchy of Prussia became known as "East Prussia" to differentiate it from these regions, which became known as "West Prussia".

Suggestions - either use actual names of the Prussian Provinces in each region (see link) OR coin a new term for the regions that does not already exist:

• Instead of Westpreussen, you can call it "Westlicher Preussen" or "Brandenburg & Schlesien"
• Instead of Ostpreussen, you can call it "Oestlicher Preussen" or "Preussen, Posen und Pommern"

Schlesien

Schlesien refers to the area encompassed by the two territories named in your map as Breslau and Schlesien. Breslau is the most important city of Schlesien but the map does not make it clear that it is indeed a part of Schlesien itself. After unification, the region of Schlesien was divided into Oberschlesien with Breslau as its capital and Niederschlesien with Oppeln as its capital.

I have two suggestions:

• consistently use region names: rename Breslau to Niederschlesien and Schlesien to Oberschlesien. OR
  
• consistently use capital names: keep Breslau and rename Schlesien to Oppeln

GAMEPLAY

Unless it would make things too chaotic, you could add the two territories of Schlesien as a bonus region that would give an additional bonus to either the Prussian or the Austrian, signifying that ownership of this region changed hands between these powers. Prussia taking Silesia was a significant event in the formation of a unified Germany, although it happened before 1859.

[Industrial Helix]

Thanks for your reply!

I made the changes to Schlesien and Breslau as suggested, they are now Oberschlesien and Neiderschlesien.

I see what you mean in regards to east and west Prussia, when I was naming zones and regions I ran into the problem of having to name Prussia in ways that don't exist. So I adopted east and west Prussia for the bonus regions and swapping the actual provinces for major cities in the area. That way I could break East Prussia and West Prussia up a little more so they weren't such huge zones. As it stands now, I think I'm going to keep it as is because the real life provinces of East and West Prussia aren't represented as they were on this map.


As for the gameplay suggestion, well, this map is through its gameplay revision stage. You're suggestion is interesting though, it would have added an interesting dynamic to the eastern half of the map. However, like you mention, Silesia didn't change hands during the wars of Unification and probably belongs better in a 7 years war map.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions. I think the solution to Silesia is a great one!





So, are there any general graphics problems with these maps? I want to take care of the general problems before shrinking eveything down for the small map.

[Fascisti]

I really like these maps.

[natty dread]

Neiderschlesian -> Niederschlesien