Healthcare Debate

[Neoteny]

Why do stupid people think they have the right to an education when they are just going to cost the system more just to pay for their stupidity?

Why do such stupid questions even get asked? It's not about trying to make everyone the same. It's about equal opportunity. It's strange that the only thing conservatives consider realistic is just the status quo with a few negligible changes.

[Neoteny]

When will "THEY'RE GIVIN' MAH MONEY TO FAT PEOPLE!!!" stop being recognized as a valid argument?

[Snorri1234]

Why do people think they have the right for lower health insurance prices when they have an unhealthy life style or genetic predisposition?? The people who will cost the system more must pay more for their coverage. Life isn't fair, so these liberals need to stop trying to make everyone exactly the same and get something realistic on the table.

Aside from this being an incredibly simplistic and dumb argument, ignoring thousands of factors that influence costs, I don't understand how life not being fair matters in any way.


"You have an easily curable sickness but no insurance SO f*ck YOU AND FUCKING DIE YOU f*ck!"?

[Snorri1234]

Every other health care system in the world is failing. Along with their economies. Look at Europe, the poster child for "free" health care. Even with exorbitant tax rates, they are failing to cover costs.

We are? How strange, nobody has told me. Thanks for the information random-american-on-the-internet. I will alert the media and government to this.

[jbrettlip]

Player, here is a quick synopsis of how things work. The government has NO money of their own. They are funded by taxes paid by people and companies that produce things. For people who pay no taxes to be given services, that means more money has to be taken from some and given to others. Giving 30 million people health care comes from the producers of the country, not from the gov. The government isn't good at running anything.

I searched my posts for "research" and can't find it. I think you are arguing with someone else.

[jbrettlip]

Every other health care system in the world is failing. Along with their economies. Look at Europe, the poster child for "free" health care. Even with exorbitant tax rates, they are failing to cover costs.

We are? How strange, nobody has told me. Thanks for the information random-american-on-the-internet. I will alert the media and government to this.

Maybe no one told you, because you aren't important. Read the Wall Street Journal sometime.

[PLAYER57832]

Why do people think they have the right for lower health insurance prices when they have an unhealthy life style or genetic predisposition?? The people who will cost the system more must pay more for their coverage. Life isn't fair, so these liberals need to stop trying to make everyone exactly the same and get something realistic on the table.

Why do some people think they should skate along for free while they are young and healthy and leave it up to taxpayers to pick up the burdern when they get old and finally need care?

And.. bottom line, you might well find yourself with the bad end of the stick.

[HapSmo19]

"You have an easily curable sickness but no insurance SO f*ck YOU AND FUCKING DIE YOU f*ck!"?

I have a friend with $70,000 in medical bills that he's never paid a penny on and just went to the ER again a couple months ago and guess what...they treated him. People don't get turned away from emergency rooms if they have an "easily curable" sickness so go easy on the drama.

[PLAYER57832]

Every other health care system in the world is failing. Along with their economies. Look at Europe, the poster child for "free" health care. Even with exorbitant tax rates, they are failing to cover costs.

We are? How strange, nobody has told me. Thanks for the information random-american-on-the-internet. I will alert the media and government to this.

Maybe no one told you, because you aren't important. Read the Wall Street Journal sometime.

I believe he is reading some rather more broad sources.

And, if you haven't noticed, he has a clue about what happens in other countries, becuase he LIVES IN ONE! and yet, unlike you, he also happens to know a bit about our system.

[PLAYER57832]

"You have an easily curable sickness but no insurance SO f*ck YOU AND FUCKING DIE YOU f*ck!"?

I have a friend with $70,000 in medical bills that he's never paid a penny on and just went to the ER again a couple months ago and guess what...they treated him. People don't get turned away from emergency rooms if they have an "easily curable" sickness so go easy on the drama.

They do if they are NOT poor, but are not wealthy enough to have insurance. Those 70,000 in bills would mean he'd have to lose his house, etc.

further, things like mastectomies are not considered "emergencies", but early breast cancer is often treatable... IF you can get to a doctor and get your surgery approved by insurance in advance.

[jbrettlip]

Every other health care system in the world is failing. Along with their economies. Look at Europe, the poster child for "free" health care. Even with exorbitant tax rates, they are failing to cover costs.

We are? How strange, nobody has told me. Thanks for the information random-american-on-the-internet. I will alert the media and government to this.

Maybe no one told you, because you aren't important. Read the Wall Street Journal sometime.

I believe he is reading some rather more broad sources.

And, if you haven't noticed, he has a clue about what happens in other countries, becuase he LIVES IN ONE! and yet, unlike you, he also happens to know a bit about our system.

Well, if you are going to have a debate on costs and economics, Left wing Euros Illustrated might not have the same credentials as the WSJ.

Hmm, you own sentence is a conflict of logic. He knows what happens because he lives there, yet I can't possibly know anything about where I live since I disagree with you. Wonderful. Someday I hope to be unemployed and live off the labor of others too. I don't know why I try so hard to be successful.

[HapSmo19]

"You have an easily curable sickness but no insurance SO f*ck YOU AND FUCKING DIE YOU f*ck!"?

I have a friend with $70,000 in medical bills that he's never paid a penny on and just went to the ER again a couple months ago and guess what...they treated him. People don't get turned away from emergency rooms if they have an "easily curable" sickness so go easy on the drama.

They do if they are NOT poor, but are not wealthy enough to have insurance.

BS. He is poor in every sense of the word.

Are we talking about saving lives or credit ratings?

[PLAYER57832]

Player, here is a quick synopsis of how things work. The government has NO money of their own. They are funded by taxes paid by people and companies that produce things. For people who pay no taxes to be given services, that means more money has to be taken from some and given to others. Giving 30 million people health care comes from the producers of the country, not from the gov. The government isn't good at running anything.

I searched my posts for "research" and can't find it. I think you are arguing with someone else.

Here is a quick synapsis of the bills actually being debated, versus our current system.

Current -- poor folks get Medicaid, FULLY taxpayer funded and covering eye, dental, etc.

old folks get Medicare -- partially taxpayer funded, covers most things. Various plans, options.

Some folks -- unionized groups, upper escheleon folks, other assorted lucky folks get wonderful insurance.

A lot of working folks -- most people working for a place employing over roughly 50 people (some variation on state rules there) who work fulltime (usually over 32 hours), not temporary or contracted, etc and some who work for smaller companies... get some kind of insurance. Quality varies, but usually will kick in for very serious emergencies IF the insurance company doesn't find some kind of "pre-existing condition" or other cause to discontinue the insurance. (note that one lady was refused a mastectomy at the very last minute because she had forgotten to menion having had acne 20 years earlier). Typical cost begin around $700 a month (total, counting employer cut) Employee cuts vary heavily.
note that in most states, having insurance available immediately excludes you from medicaid coverage, regardless of your income status, the quality of coverage. This is why my family found ourselves owing over $3000 in two months when my husband's employer switched insurance on Dec 1rst, with a few days notice to employees, despite the fact that our income would have enabled our kids to get CHIP.

A good manyworking people (numbers vary, but 10,000,000-25,000,000 are the most common figures floated around) have NO insurance. These are a lot of the self-employed, part-time workers and such. They also include those who have pre-existing conditions (of ANY kind, any more), many who had insurance and then got sick, etc.

NOTE that many of the long-term unemployed fall into the "indigent" category and get their coverage paid, for free, by taxpayers.



NOW... look over that list. WHICH group do you notice is the "uncovered" group? Its NOT the "lazy bums" . The people doing without are working, often with fairly decent incomes. They would gladly buy insurance if they could get it for the kind of rates large companies can get. A few people, yes, will need some help. HOWEVER, this cost will be balanced out by the additional people paying premiums (particularly younger people who don't feel they will ever get sick) and by the fact that people will be able to get real care earlier, when it is cheaper to treat things.

[PLAYER57832]

. He knows what happens because he lives there, yet I can't possibly know anything about where I live since I disagree with you. Wonderful. Someday I hope to be unemployed and live off the labor of others too. I don't know why I try so hard to be successful.

You don't know because you keep reciting idiocy instead of looking up real facts.

As far as Europe. Yes, their economy is suffering. Mostly because the world is inter-connected and when we go down, so do other countries. This is precisely why Europeans do take an interest in our health care debate.

As for their healthcare system.... #1 it is not ONE healthcare system, it is many. EACH of them operates more cheaply and offers better care, overall than ours. And the Wallstreet Journal does not state otherwise, sorry.

[Snorri1234]

Every other health care system in the world is failing. Along with their economies. Look at Europe, the poster child for "free" health care. Even with exorbitant tax rates, they are failing to cover costs.

We are? How strange, nobody has told me. Thanks for the information random-american-on-the-internet. I will alert the media and government to this.

Maybe no one told you, because you aren't important. Read the Wall Street Journal sometime.

God this is dumb. "Europe", like a collection of so many varying political structures and forms of healthcare can be put under one denominator, isn't really failing to cover the costs of healthcare.

[tzor]

One of the greatest fallacies ever invented was that the government can actually do something! This is the greatest fallacy that the progressive elites have invented.

I remember a good series NPR did a year ago about national health systems worldwide. The long story short was that all of these systems had major long term problems. They each had their own different problems, but none of them had any solution that was long term solvent or long term sustainable. The European systems also had their problems. (One of the problems that they share with other nations is the burden of medical tourism.)

Spain Bears Brunt Of 'Health Tourism'

The problem with health insurance; anyone’s health insurance, corporate, private, public, it doesn’t matter; is that it tries to hide the costs of health from the people who have to pay those costs. This makes the true costs (and ironically the true benefits) of health care totally unknown to the people who get and who have to pay for health care. It becomes harder to see how simple economic principles like supply and demand still impact the quality and cost of healthcare.

Thus it is less about everyone being covered than it is about everyone taking an active involvement in their own health care. (There is an argument that would suggest that covering everyone will lower costs because those not insured often go through the most expensive portion of health care for every problem; hospital emergency rooms.) The question of health insurance (especially for the young) is just like the question of life insurance. In the question of life insurance, you can pay now or you can pay later, but in either case the total you pay is going to be the same. (Buy life insurance later and your premiums will be higher.) This is the type of incentive we need in health insurance.

[PLAYER57832]

"You have an easily curable sickness but no insurance SO f*ck YOU AND FUCKING DIE YOU f*ck!"?

I have a friend with $70,000 in medical bills that he's never paid a penny on and just went to the ER again a couple months ago and guess what...they treated him. People don't get turned away from emergency rooms if they have an "easily curable" sickness so go easy on the drama.

They do if they are NOT poor, but are not wealthy enough to have insurance.

BS. He is poor in every sense of the word.

Are we talking about saving lives or credit ratings?

I quote you "he is poor".

End of argument.

If you are poor... YOU ALREADY GET CARE, FOR FREE (you don't necessarily get treatment for things like cancer, but sometimes even that).

ITS IF YOU HAVE SOME MONEY, ARE WORKING, BUT ARE NOT WEALTHY that you get screwed. THAT is the point of healthcare insurance reform. To allow all of us working people to get real insurance at set costs with gauranteed care.

[PLAYER57832]

One of the greatest fallacies ever invented was that the government can actually do something! This is the greatest fallacy that the progressive elites have invented.

I remember a good series NPR did a year ago about national health systems worldwide. The long story short was that all of these systems had major long term problems. They each had their own different problems, but none of them had any solution that was long term solvent or long term sustainable. The European systems also had their problems. (One of the problems that they share with other nations is the burden of medical tourism.)
.

Funny, but what I remember from those interviews, the analysis is that while none of the systems was perfect, every one, without exception was far, better than the US system. People liked them better, they cost lest per person and served people better.

Here, in the US, a few people still get nice insurance and health care, both. But that number is shrinking and the cost for those policies is going up and up and up. The cost of insurance is going up much faster than the cost of health care. Further, the security you used to get from having insurance is no longer there because companies are becoming outright brutal in the ways they deny claims. That's what makes this even worse than it seems. Many of the people who say they are happy with their current insurance will soon find out they ought not to have been so happy, because when they need it, it is not there!

[Snorri1234]

"You have an easily curable sickness but no insurance SO f*ck YOU AND FUCKING DIE YOU f*ck!"?

I have a friend with $70,000 in medical bills that he's never paid a penny on and just went to the ER again a couple months ago and guess what...they treated him. People don't get turned away from emergency rooms if they have an "easily curable" sickness so go easy on the drama.

I am not saying that that is the current system, I am saying that that is the logical extent of such a viewpoint. In fact, what you're referring to here is part of why your system is so incredibly dumb and failing so hard.

On the one hand you're boasting about fiscal responsibility and how people who get sick had it coming, and on the other hand you claim your system is awesome because when people who can't afford to get their minor ailments cured get treatment when those minor ailments turn into serious problems.

You're more than happy to deny coverage for a person with a suspicious mole on their arm, and also more than happy to treat them with expensive procedures that probably won't save their lives when that mole turns out to be a melanoma and the person has cancer.

[HapSmo19]

ITS IF YOU HAVE SOME MONEY, ARE WORKING, BUT ARE NOT WEALTHY that you get screwed. THAT is the point of healthcare insurance reform. To allow all of us working people to get real insurance at set costs with gauranteed care.

Holy shit. You think this bill is the best way to achieve that goal?

There's nothing wrong with the piecemeal(or all at once with individual bills that specifically address individual issues) approach to this problem.

[Snorri1234]

One of the greatest fallacies ever invented was that the government can actually do something! This is the greatest fallacy that the progressive elites have invented.

It would be awesome to see a world where government had never existed.

I wouldn't want to live there of course, for the same reason I wouldn't want to live in Mad Max' world.

I remember a good series NPR did a year ago about national health systems worldwide. The long story short was that all of these systems had major long term problems. They each had their own different problems, but none of them had any solution that was long term solvent or long term sustainable. The European systems also had their problems. (One of the problems that they share with other nations is the burden of medical tourism.)

Wait...why is medical tourism such a burden?

Spain Bears Brunt Of 'Health Tourism'

This is merely a problem unique to Spain because old people move there. It has nothing at all to do with Health Tourism for the same reason that old people moving to Florida has nothing to do with it. Yes Spain suffers from it a bit but they can likely strike a bargain with the EU for extra funds.

The problem with health insurance; anyone’s health insurance, corporate, private, public, it doesn’t matter; is that it tries to hide the costs of health from the people who have to pay those costs. This makes the true costs (and ironically the true benefits) of health care totally unknown to the people who get and who have to pay for health care. It becomes harder to see how simple economic principles like supply and demand still impact the quality and cost of healthcare.

Thus it is less about everyone being covered than it is about everyone taking an active involvement in their own health care. (There is an argument that would suggest that covering everyone will lower costs because those not insured often go through the most expensive portion of health care for every problem; hospital emergency rooms.) The question of health insurance (especially for the young) is just like the question of life insurance. In the question of life insurance, you can pay now or you can pay later, but in either case the total you pay is going to be the same. (Buy life insurance later and your premiums will be higher.) This is the type of incentive we need in health insurance.

What you need to do is mandate coverage. Life insurance is completely different because you don't need it.

[Snorri1234]

ITS IF YOU HAVE SOME MONEY, ARE WORKING, BUT ARE NOT WEALTHY that you get screwed. THAT is the point of healthcare insurance reform. To allow all of us working people to get real insurance at set costs with gauranteed care.

Holy shit. You think this bill is the best way to achieve that goal?

There's nothing wrong with the piecemeal(or all at once with individual bills that specifically address individual issues) approach to this problem.

Nobody thinks this bill is the BEST way to achieve this. At least, in the realistic political sense. Hopefully this bill will lead to further improvements.

[jbrettlip]

. He knows what happens because he lives there, yet I can't possibly know anything about where I live since I disagree with you. Wonderful. Someday I hope to be unemployed and live off the labor of others too. I don't know why I try so hard to be successful.

You don't know because you keep reciting idiocy instead of looking up real facts.

As far as Europe. Yes, their economy is suffering. Mostly because the world is inter-connected and when we go down, so do other countries. This is precisely why Europeans do take an interest in our health care debate.

As for their healthcare system.... #1 it is not ONE healthcare system, it is many. EACH of them operates more cheaply and offers better care, overall than ours. And the Wallstreet Journal does not state otherwise, sorry.

you win. Your stupidity makes my head hurt. I know it isn't one system, but the models are similar. Greece is failing, the UK is failing, and the US is failing ALL due to entitlement programs. I am not a socialist and never will be. You can depend on government or you can depend on yourself. I will continue ot depend on myself and be a producer in this society. You can continue to hope for a percentage of my income.

[Snorri1234]

I know it isn't one system, but the models are similar.

No they're not. The Dutch and German systems are vastly different from the UK and French ones.

Greece is failing, the UK is failing, and the US is failing ALL due to entitlement programs.

And I'm the one who should read the Wall Street Journal?

As much as I dislike the editors of that paper, I know that they would never be so moronic to blame Greece's and the USA's economic problems on entitlement programs. Because that would be unbelievably stupid.

You can continue to hope for a percentage of my income.

Don't worry, they're already getting it.

[PLAYER57832]

you win. Your stupidity makes my head hurt. I know it isn't one system, but the models are similar.

No, they are not... but you would know that had you bothered to actually read something other than right-wing blogs... INCLUDING by-the-way the Wall Street Journal which you attempted to cite earlier.

Greece is failing, the UK is failing, and the US is failing ALL due to entitlement programs. I am not a socialist and never will be. You can depend on government or you can depend on yourself. I will continue ot depend on myself and be a producer in this society.

I see, so Greece, the UK and the US all have the same type of economic and health care systems, according to you?

You can continue to hope for a percentage of my income.

Now who's misquoting.

No one is asking for YOUR income. We are demanding a bit of the insurance companies' income.