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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby nietzsche on Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:46 pm

I'm tooooo lazy to read previous posts but I'm tired of Americans against socialized healthcare.

It's a need, it's a right, the most powerful nation in the world should at least provide security and healtcare for its citizens.

Are you still afraid of the URSS? Socialized Healthcare doesn't mean communism, and Obama is a democrat and should do this.

If you stop using taxpayer dollars to fight lost wars (Irak) and trying to be world police, it shouldn't be a problem. Rich people would still want to pay for the best doctors, and homeless and poor people are a result of the system and the system has to deal with it.

Why don't you pay attention to lobbyism? That's evil. Or have you forgotten the greedy bastards who put the world into a 3 year recession? What about Greenspan?

You guys, Socialized Healthcare is a good thing, and with creativity you can find the money to pay for it.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:11 pm

nietzsche wrote:I'm tooooo lazy to read previous posts but I'm tired of Americans against socialized healthcare.

It's a need, it's a right, the most powerful nation in the world should at least provide security and healtcare for its citizens.

Are you still afraid of the URSS? Socialized Healthcare doesn't mean communism, and Obama is a democrat and should do this.

If you stop using taxpayer dollars to fight lost wars (Irak) and trying to be world police, it shouldn't be a problem. Rich people would still want to pay for the best doctors, and homeless and poor people are a result of the system and the system has to deal with it.

Why don't you pay attention to lobbyism? That's evil. Or have you forgotten the greedy bastards who put the world into a 3 year recession? What about Greenspan?

You guys, Socialized Healthcare is a good thing, and with creativity you can find the money to pay for it.


or you can just keep your 30 million countrymen from crossing our borders to steal our money. It isn't a right, either.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby nietzsche on Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:23 pm

jbrettlip wrote:
nietzsche wrote:I'm tooooo lazy to read previous posts but I'm tired of Americans against socialized healthcare.

It's a need, it's a right, the most powerful nation in the world should at least provide security and healtcare for its citizens.

Are you still afraid of the URSS? Socialized Healthcare doesn't mean communism, and Obama is a democrat and should do this.

If you stop using taxpayer dollars to fight lost wars (Irak) and trying to be world police, it shouldn't be a problem. Rich people would still want to pay for the best doctors, and homeless and poor people are a result of the system and the system has to deal with it.

Why don't you pay attention to lobbyism? That's evil. Or have you forgotten the greedy bastards who put the world into a 3 year recession? What about Greenspan?

You guys, Socialized Healthcare is a good thing, and with creativity you can find the money to pay for it.


or you can just keep your 30 million countrymen from crossing our borders to steal our money. It isn't a right, either.


Uhm.. mixed thoughts there, I'm not gonna respond to that.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:27 pm

nietzsche wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:
nietzsche wrote:I'm tooooo lazy to read previous posts but I'm tired of Americans against socialized healthcare.

It's a need, it's a right, the most powerful nation in the world should at least provide security and healtcare for its citizens.

Are you still afraid of the URSS? Socialized Healthcare doesn't mean communism, and Obama is a democrat and should do this.

If you stop using taxpayer dollars to fight lost wars (Irak) and trying to be world police, it shouldn't be a problem. Rich people would still want to pay for the best doctors, and homeless and poor people are a result of the system and the system has to deal with it.

Why don't you pay attention to lobbyism? That's evil. Or have you forgotten the greedy bastards who put the world into a 3 year recession? What about Greenspan?

You guys, Socialized Healthcare is a good thing, and with creativity you can find the money to pay for it.


or you can just keep your 30 million countrymen from crossing our borders to steal our money. It isn't a right, either.


Uhm.. mixed thoughts there, I'm not gonna respond to that.


Thanks for the lesson in irony.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby nietzsche on Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:06 pm

jbrettlip wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:
nietzsche wrote:I'm tooooo lazy to read previous posts but I'm tired of Americans against socialized healthcare.

It's a need, it's a right, the most powerful nation in the world should at least provide security and healtcare for its citizens.

Are you still afraid of the URSS? Socialized Healthcare doesn't mean communism, and Obama is a democrat and should do this.

If you stop using taxpayer dollars to fight lost wars (Irak) and trying to be world police, it shouldn't be a problem. Rich people would still want to pay for the best doctors, and homeless and poor people are a result of the system and the system has to deal with it.

Why don't you pay attention to lobbyism? That's evil. Or have you forgotten the greedy bastards who put the world into a 3 year recession? What about Greenspan?

You guys, Socialized Healthcare is a good thing, and with creativity you can find the money to pay for it.


or you can just keep your 30 million countrymen from crossing our borders to steal our money. It isn't a right, either.


Uhm.. mixed thoughts there, I'm not gonna respond to that.


Thanks for the lesson in irony.


wait a sec

there was a time (having dual citizenship myself) when i thought wetbacks were the worst kind of mexicans who went to the US because they couldn't make it in Mexico. Then my thought matured and understood that Mexico had no oportunities for these people, and their survival instinct and their want for getting something good out of life made them immigrate, and that americans had their right to complain against those who misbehaved. Then I learned that America is a nation of immigrants, and it was the time for Mexicans to be hated, and in a few generations they'll be accepted. The truth is that most americans are racists, and some are lazy, and those kind of jobs they didn't want to take mexicans willingly took them to feed their children, and help their families left behind in Mexico. Mexicans suffer the first years they live in the US, and always have nostalgia for their homeland. They didn't have a choice. They have 2 or even 3 underpaid jobs most of the time. Could you blame them? Put on their shoes.

They contribute in the America you want, with cheap labor for your commodity. Why don't you blame big companies that have callcenters in India instead?

Were your ancestors born in the US? Or did they immigrate?

Mixed thoughts because it is a topic with many ramifications and can't be settled in just a post.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:18 pm

No, if Mexicans stayed out of the country, we would have more expensive chicken or hotel rooms or housing costs (generalizing some of the industries that have high illegal labor). But also we would not be spending millions on their healthcare, imprisoning them or even needing a Border Patrol (we don't police Canada's borders heavily). My ancestors immigrated LEGALLY to this country. That does not make me a racist. I don't want CRIMINALS of any color, race or religion in this country. And sorry, that is what illegal aliens are. They are criminals. Are some of them nice people? Yes. DO some of them have only good intentions? Yes. But are ALL of them lawbreakers. YES!

I think HISPANICS are readily accepted now, considering I grew up in NM and AZ and currently live in TX. It is the non citizens that face a back lash here. And I think it is rightfully so. Every person trying to immigrate to the US should disapprove of these "line jumpers".

And as for corporations, I don't care if they move a call center. It is their business to run. But one that employs illegals should face multi million $ fines.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby nietzsche on Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:39 pm

Laws are set by politicians, they change them when they want, and not necesarily follow good morals. You are basing your argument on your blind belief in laws.

Well, why don't you arrest them and expel them from America? It's quite easy to do so. I'm gonna answer this one, because America needs them.

If you are gonna debate with me basing your arguments on laws, well, look elsewhere, I'd rather debate ideas, theories and the like.

I'm gonna give you one point tho, cartels are sending mexicans to sell their drugs in the US, they need people they can trust and can families left in Mexico to pay if they doublecross them. But again, this is a much larger topic for a post, and if you gonna come back to me with "drugs are illegal and drug lords should go to jail" well, I have nothing to say to you. Drugs will be decriminalized in less than 20 years I bet you on that one. Laws change according to the interest of the powerful.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:46 am

nietzsche wrote:Laws are set by politicians, they change them when they want, and not necesarily follow good morals. You are basing your argument on your blind belief in laws.

Well, why don't you arrest them and expel them from America? It's quite easy to do so. I'm gonna answer this one, because America needs them.

If you are gonna debate with me basing your arguments on laws, well, look elsewhere, I'd rather debate ideas, theories and the like.

I'm gonna give you one point tho, cartels are sending mexicans to sell their drugs in the US, they need people they can trust and can families left in Mexico to pay if they doublecross them. But again, this is a much larger topic for a post, and if you gonna come back to me with "drugs are illegal and drug lords should go to jail" well, I have nothing to say to you. Drugs will be decriminalized in less than 20 years I bet you on that one. Laws change according to the interest of the powerful.


Since you just want to talk in general theory and opinion, as opposed to actual facts, here are mine: I think illegals should be caught adn transported to southernmost mexico and dropped off there immediately. Anyone caught crossing the border illegally should be shot. Anyone who gives birth while here illegally does not have US citizenship and the child does not until they are 18.

As for drug legalization, you are right about pot. But not heroin or coke or speed or the true moneymakers for the cartels. Since we are debating a fantasy land, I would pull the army from Iraq and put them on the borders. Believe me, we could stop the drug trade quick.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:41 am

nietzsche wrote:Well, why don't you arrest them and expel them from America? It's quite easy to do so. I'm gonna answer this one, because America needs them.


No, to both points.
It's not easy to arrest and expel illegal immigrants. There was a recently-resolved case where an illegal Guatemalan boy got hit by a car and was in a local hospital in ICU for a long time until the hospital got legal permission to forcibly expel him; to return him to his country, to an aunt. He ran up nearly $2 million in unrecouperable debt to the hospital while here. A lawyer sued the hospital for "kidnap" among other things because the hospital had returned him to his homeland. The case went for years before a settlement occurred that awards the boy, in Guatemala, another half-million dollars.

How much, really, did we "need" that boy? Technically, he was too young to work, given child labor laws, so if anyone did employ him, they were breaking laws. Also, technically, NO illegal immigrant is employable. Too, the point you tried to make about Americans being lazy? Sorry, I don't buy into it. I know too many people willing to work manual labor but can't get the jobs because they've been taken by immigrants (many of which are, as in the case of this 11 year old boy, illegal.)

Illegal immigrants take our money but don't pay taxes. Then they get the free healthcare U.S. citizens ultimately pay for and still cannot get (most of the terms of the new "insurance for everyone" bill that just passed won't go into effect for a few years, and even then, 25 million or so LEGAL Americans will not be covered). Then, when an attempt is made to forcibly expel one, lawyers can tie up the legal system with civil suits protesting their forcible expulsion.

So, no, we don't need them, but it's not easy to expel them, either; nor is it easy to keep them out.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby tzor on Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:09 am

I would like to throw the following thought about illegal immigration …

Every illegal immigrant is potentially taking a job away from …
A legal immigrant.

Every illegal immigrant is potentially making people very weary of …
Every legal immigrant.

It’s sad really, because those legal immigrants are the only ones who truly are getting the rewards of the “American Dream.” (Only there heaven is back in their home country where working for peanuts here can give them a mansion and retirement income for themselves and their family back home.)
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby nietzsche on Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:05 am

stahrgazer wrote:
nietzsche wrote:Well, why don't you arrest them and expel them from America? It's quite easy to do so. I'm gonna answer this one, because America needs them.


No, to both points.
It's not easy to arrest and expel illegal immigrants. There was a recently-resolved case where an illegal Guatemalan boy got hit by a car and was in a local hospital in ICU for a long time until the hospital got legal permission to forcibly expel him; to return him to his country, to an aunt. He ran up nearly $2 million in unrecouperable debt to the hospital while here. A lawyer sued the hospital for "kidnap" among other things because the hospital had returned him to his homeland. The case went for years before a settlement occurred that awards the boy, in Guatemala, another half-million dollars.

How much, really, did we "need" that boy? Technically, he was too young to work, given child labor laws, so if anyone did employ him, they were breaking laws. Also, technically, NO illegal immigrant is employable. Too, the point you tried to make about Americans being lazy? Sorry, I don't buy into it. I know too many people willing to work manual labor but can't get the jobs because they've been taken by immigrants (many of which are, as in the case of this 11 year old boy, illegal.)

Illegal immigrants take our money but don't pay taxes. Then they get the free healthcare U.S. citizens ultimately pay for and still cannot get (most of the terms of the new "insurance for everyone" bill that just passed won't go into effect for a few years, and even then, 25 million or so LEGAL Americans will not be covered). Then, when an attempt is made to forcibly expel one, lawyers can tie up the legal system with civil suits protesting their forcible expulsion.

So, no, we don't need them, but it's not easy to expel them, either; nor is it easy to keep them out.


Post like this I respect. It could make me change my mind. The point of illegals not paying taxes is a big one. But I insist it is easy to catch them. The case of this boy, well, it's not the general situation. If you really wanted illegals out, you could change your policies right away and expel them, you can't argue with that. Not every illegal will be sick in a hospital. The truth is, cheap labor is good for you.

The debate over healtcare for illegals is a hard one, universal healthcare for every American is good, but leaving an illegal die because he's illegal well, that's wrong. And face it, he can't pay for it.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:55 pm

tzor wrote:I would like to throw the following thought about illegal immigration …

Every illegal immigrant is potentially taking a job away from …
A legal immigrant.

Every illegal immigrant is potentially making people very weary of …
Every legal immigrant.

It’s sad really, because those legal immigrants are the only ones who truly are getting the rewards of the “American Dream.” (Only there heaven is back in their home country where working for peanuts here can give them a mansion and retirement income for themselves and their family back home.)


Except, you wish to blame people who only want to work. The ones you should REALLY blame are those who hire these people. And if you want to know the real reason why we have so many immigrants, its because SO MANY BUSINESSES ARE QUITE HAPPY TO HIRE THEM, and will even try to "justify" it by claiming that "US workers demand too much", "US workers don't work as hard"... etc.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:10 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
tzor wrote:I would like to throw the following thought about illegal immigration …

Every illegal immigrant is potentially taking a job away from …
A legal immigrant.

Every illegal immigrant is potentially making people very weary of …
Every legal immigrant.

It’s sad really, because those legal immigrants are the only ones who truly are getting the rewards of the “American Dream.” (Only there heaven is back in their home country where working for peanuts here can give them a mansion and retirement income for themselves and their family back home.)


Except, you wish to blame people who only want to work. The ones you should REALLY blame are those who hire these people. And if you want to know the real reason why we have so many immigrants, its because SO MANY BUSINESSES ARE QUITE HAPPY TO HIRE THEM, and will even try to "justify" it by claiming that "US workers demand too much", "US workers don't work as hard"... etc.


I already agreed with you saying any company that hires illegals should have multi miliion $ fines. However, the fact that illegals can't unionize makes them an attractive labor force for many businesses. Maybe Americans should realize the job of working at a chicken slaughter house is worth $5 an hour and not have a federal minimum wage, or a union saying it is worth $20 an hour. A true free labor market would end the temptation of people sneaking into our country.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:38 pm

The problem is American's are too educated. There is a severe demand for uneducated people to fill shit jobs. However, coroprations and businesses have figured out ways to do create cheaper jobs by designing the company and it's working/moving parts around unskilled workers, and now it is becoming the way of business. Business owners are cutting back production, employment, spending (government should try this) etc...and the new question is..

How do I incorporate $7/hour workers to complete this task?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:58 pm

jbrettlip wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
tzor wrote:I would like to throw the following thought about illegal immigration …

Every illegal immigrant is potentially taking a job away from …
A legal immigrant.

Every illegal immigrant is potentially making people very weary of …
Every legal immigrant.

It’s sad really, because those legal immigrants are the only ones who truly are getting the rewards of the “American Dream.” (Only there heaven is back in their home country where working for peanuts here can give them a mansion and retirement income for themselves and their family back home.)


Except, you wish to blame people who only want to work. The ones you should REALLY blame are those who hire these people. And if you want to know the real reason why we have so many immigrants, its because SO MANY BUSINESSES ARE QUITE HAPPY TO HIRE THEM, and will even try to "justify" it by claiming that "US workers demand too much", "US workers don't work as hard"... etc.


I already agreed with you saying any company that hires illegals should have multi miliion $ fines. However, the fact that illegals can't unionize makes them an attractive labor force for many businesses. Maybe Americans should realize the job of working at a chicken slaughter house is worth $5 an hour and not have a federal minimum wage, or a union saying it is worth $20 an hour. A true free labor market would end the temptation of people sneaking into our country.


I love it! You completely gloss over the fact that , in this case, it IS the free market in operation, say "Americans need to unionize"..and then go back to "we need the free market" . Newsflash! Unionization, etc are not part of a truly free market, they are socialism!

The problem is not people coming here to work. It never has been and never was. Do you seriously think companies are really going to flinch at a few million in fines when it saves them many millions? When you allow companies to set the floor, they will always find some poor slob willing to work for a pittance. Targeting immigrants (illegal or not) nicely defllects blame from the real problems, though, so of course many in power trot out the "immigration" card whenever times get tough.

Ironically, bringing MORE people here might be one solution to our social security mess (this is complicated and is not something with which I necessarily agree).

You want to know why our economy is so bad? Its because, at the end of the day, too few people here have enough money left to buy things. People cannot buy things because companies like Walmart are allowed to decide what a base wage for an area is. This means that any company that doesn't operate under a similarly tight scheme when it comes to wages, health care and production costs... will not be able to make sales.

The REAL solution? To buy locally or ONLY from sources that pay their workers well, including health care allowances (I don't care if they provide health care or provide a wage that allows their people to buy health care, though right now, the first is the only real possibility) and that operate under safe, environmentally sound conditions. This might mean paying $1.20 instead of $0.80 for bread.. or making your own.

However, as illustrated in the "tragedy of the commons" too many people are too intent on doing what is best for just themselves, no matter if working together would really and truly benefit all.

So, you go on about your "free marketism", decry healthcare reform.. and yet... also talk of unions. Sorry, but you cannot have it all ways.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:12 pm

jbrettlip wrote: My ancestors immigrated LEGALLY to this country. That does not make me a racist. I don't want CRIMINALS of any color, race or religion in this country. And sorry, that is what illegal aliens are. They are criminals. Are some of them nice people? Yes. DO some of them have only good intentions? Yes. But are ALL of them lawbreakers. YES!


Well, you ignore the heavy bias in limits. We have over 10,000,000 (some estimates say) undocumented workers from Mexico and other Latin American nations here in this country, but there are not even ONE million worker visas available, never mind green cards. Furthermore, if you ever talk to any who have participated in the guest worker program, the irony is that they can be held even more easily in slave-like conditions.

the typical argument against illegal immigrants goes twofold:

1. "they use our services". In truth, with a few notable exceptions, their children, who are citizens, get services (though many times parents are afraid to apply for thier children because they themselves are illegal), but they get only the barest minimum. Yes, if they get into an accident, they get treated. Do you want everyone who even looks "foreign" to bring their IDs with them? (Because that IS what would be required!) IN an emergency, we need to ensure people are treated first, then questions asked later. This does mean that some illegal aliens are left "in limbo". BUT the solution is to offer better insurance coverage to hospitals and so forth.. something like the "uninsured motorist" coverage we have in cars, perhaps.

2. They are criminals. This has 2 forms.
a. The first is that because they came here illegally, they are more likely to commit crimes here in the US. This is just false. They are actually far more likely to obey every law because they are so afraid of being shipped back. They CAN get blackmailed into crime more readily than others. But you know the best way to stop that? DON'T allow criminals to use status as a blackmail opportunity. In other words, offer protection, not deportation, to informants as a minimum or simply remove the "illegal" tag, as long as someone is otherwise law-abiding.

b. the second is just? "we have this law [for a reason] and it needs to be honored (this is how I took your phrasing of the argument, by-the-way). The problem is that the "reason" is really business profitability. It has absolutely nothing to do with security (not really), it has nothing to do with job protection, even, because these people are supporting too many businesses that claim they "simply cannot pay better".
jbrettlip wrote:I think HISPANICS are readily accepted now, considering I grew up in NM and AZ and currently live in TX. It is the non citizens that face a back lash here. And I think it is rightfully so. Every person trying to immigrate to the US should disapprove of these "line jumpers".

And exactly how can you tell, just by looking, that someone is "illegal", as you say? Among other issues, illegal immigrants come not simply from Mexico, but from every nation on earth, including such "hispanic" nations as "ireland".

So, yes, you are a bit racist.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby beezer on Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:20 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:You want to know why our economy is so bad? Its because, at the end of the day, too few people here have enough money left to buy things. People cannot buy things because companies like Walmart are allowed to decide what a base wage for an area is. This means that any company that doesn't operate under a similarly tight scheme when it comes to wages, health care and production costs... will not be able to make sales.

The REAL solution? To buy locally or ONLY from sources that pay their workers well, including health care allowances (I don't care if they provide health care or provide a wage that allows their people to buy health care, though right now, the first is the only real possibility) and that operate under safe, environmentally sound conditions. This might mean paying $1.20 instead of $0.80 for bread.. or making your own.


Only someone devoted to MSNBC or NPR could think like this.^

So let's see here........

Those people in the community who can't afford to buy things at $0.80 in the first place are suddenly going to have the magical ability to pay for things that are $1.20 all of a sudden! Yeah right :lol:

You can jack up workers' wages all you want, but unless people are buying merchandise the store will not be in business to pay them anything at all. Which will lead to layoffs, which will lead to less people in the community having any capital at all to purchase products. Low wages, as much as you might not like them, lead to a store being able to sell things at low prices. The consumer does win. You create your own scenario to fit your worldview that there is no positive sum gain.

Nobody is entitled to a higher wage or health care benefit from their employer simply because they think so. A higher wage is earned through a combination of a strong work ethic, competitive style of business operation, and increased profit. I'm sure we'll be hearing more posts from you about how Wal-mart is the equivalent of a sweat shop though.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Simon Viavant on Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:25 pm

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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:44 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:


You want to know why our economy is so bad? Its because, at the end of the day, too few people here have enough money left to buy things. People cannot buy things because companies like Walmart are allowed to decide what a base wage for an area is. This means that any company that doesn't operate under a similarly tight scheme when it comes to wages, health care and production costs... will not be able to make sales.


oh really? the thing you completely gloss over is that American are saving more and more at a very impressive rate. They can go out and buy, they are just planning ahead in case they lose their job or have an accident, and MAINLY GETTING OUT OF DEBT!!!!


The REAL solution? To buy locally or ONLY from sources that pay their workers well, including health care allowances (I don't care if they provide health care or provide a wage that allows their people to buy health care, though right now, the first is the only real possibility) and that operate under safe, environmentally sound conditions. This might mean paying $1.20 instead of $0.80 for bread.. or making your own.


well THAT would certainly raise prices and make people BUY more????

Socialism is a mental illness, I swear
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby john9blue on Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:46 pm

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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby tzor on Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:03 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Except, you wish to blame people who only want to work. The ones you should REALLY blame are those who hire these people. And if you want to know the real reason why we have so many immigrants, its because SO MANY BUSINESSES ARE QUITE HAPPY TO HIRE THEM, and will even try to "justify" it by claiming that "US workers demand too much", "US workers don't work as hard"... etc.


I wasn't really blaming anyone; doesn't everyone want to work? (There are businesses who are responsible for generating a demand and there are people who are responsible for the demand. Cut the demand and you cut the supply which is why the flow of illegal immigration dropped like a rock in the recent recession.) My point is that illegal immigration threatens legal immigration more than it does regular working jobs. There are many jobs that only immigrants want to do, especially in the field of farming where the hours are long, seasonal and irratic. The profit margins of small family farms are so low that any increase in the wage scale of the workers would literally put these small farms out of business. (They can't raise their prices to compensate because they are already having a hard time competing with imported foods from South America.)

And it's not a union thing; most unions do more harm than good. The New York City Teacher's Union was recently lobbying for the repeal of laws in the state that exempt farm workers from overtime laws. (The way farm work is, you work when the weather is good, even if it does mean that you have to work on a weekend.) Small farms would have to fallow their fields because they can't afford the additional expense and no one wants to work for a loss. That would mean more legal immigrants on the streets looking for day labor jobs.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:01 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
tzor wrote:I would like to throw the following thought about illegal immigration …

Every illegal immigrant is potentially taking a job away from …
A legal immigrant.

Every illegal immigrant is potentially making people very weary of …
Every legal immigrant.

It’s sad really, because those legal immigrants are the only ones who truly are getting the rewards of the “American Dream.” (Only there heaven is back in their home country where working for peanuts here can give them a mansion and retirement income for themselves and their family back home.)


Except, you wish to blame people who only want to work. The ones you should REALLY blame are those who hire these people. And if you want to know the real reason why we have so many immigrants, its because SO MANY BUSINESSES ARE QUITE HAPPY TO HIRE THEM, and will even try to "justify" it by claiming that "US workers demand too much", "US workers don't work as hard"... etc.


I already agreed with you saying any company that hires illegals should have multi miliion $ fines. However, the fact that illegals can't unionize makes them an attractive labor force for many businesses. Maybe Americans should realize the job of working at a chicken slaughter house is worth $5 an hour and not have a federal minimum wage, or a union saying it is worth $20 an hour. A true free labor market would end the temptation of people sneaking into our country.


I love it! You completely gloss over the fact that , in this case, it IS the free market in operation, say "Americans need to unionize"..and then go back to "we need the free market" . Newsflash! Unionization, etc are not part of a truly free market, they are socialism!

The problem is not people coming here to work. It never has been and never was. Do you seriously think companies are really going to flinch at a few million in fines when it saves them many millions? When you allow companies to set the floor, they will always find some poor slob willing to work for a pittance. Targeting immigrants (illegal or not) nicely defllects blame from the real problems, though, so of course many in power trot out the "immigration" card whenever times get tough.

Ironically, bringing MORE people here might be one solution to our social security mess (this is complicated and is not something with which I necessarily agree).

You want to know why our economy is so bad? Its because, at the end of the day, too few people here have enough money left to buy things. People cannot buy things because companies like Walmart are allowed to decide what a base wage for an area is. This means that any company that doesn't operate under a similarly tight scheme when it comes to wages, health care and production costs... will not be able to make sales.

The REAL solution? To buy locally or ONLY from sources that pay their workers well, including health care allowances (I don't care if they provide health care or provide a wage that allows their people to buy health care, though right now, the first is the only real possibility) and that operate under safe, environmentally sound conditions. This might mean paying $1.20 instead of $0.80 for bread.. or making your own.

However, as illustrated in the "tragedy of the commons" too many people are too intent on doing what is best for just themselves, no matter if working together would really and truly benefit all.

So, you go on about your "free marketism", decry healthcare reform.. and yet... also talk of unions. Sorry, but you cannot have it all ways.

You have very poor reading comprehension.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:06 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jbrettlip wrote: My ancestors immigrated LEGALLY to this country. That does not make me a racist. I don't want CRIMINALS of any color, race or religion in this country. And sorry, that is what illegal aliens are. They are criminals. Are some of them nice people? Yes. DO some of them have only good intentions? Yes. But are ALL of them lawbreakers. YES!


Well, you ignore the heavy bias in limits. We have over 10,000,000 (some estimates say) undocumented workers from Mexico and other Latin American nations here in this country, but there are not even ONE million worker visas available, never mind green cards. Furthermore, if you ever talk to any who have participated in the guest worker program, the irony is that they can be held even more easily in slave-like conditions.

the typical argument against illegal immigrants goes twofold:

1. "they use our services". In truth, with a few notable exceptions, their children, who are citizens, get services (though many times parents are afraid to apply for thier children because they themselves are illegal), but they get only the barest minimum. Yes, if they get into an accident, they get treated. Do you want everyone who even looks "foreign" to bring their IDs with them? (Because that IS what would be required!) IN an emergency, we need to ensure people are treated first, then questions asked later. This does mean that some illegal aliens are left "in limbo". BUT the solution is to offer better insurance coverage to hospitals and so forth.. something like the "uninsured motorist" coverage we have in cars, perhaps.

2. They are criminals. This has 2 forms.
a. The first is that because they came here illegally, they are more likely to commit crimes here in the US. This is just false. They are actually far more likely to obey every law because they are so afraid of being shipped back. They CAN get blackmailed into crime more readily than others. But you know the best way to stop that? DON'T allow criminals to use status as a blackmail opportunity. In other words, offer protection, not deportation, to informants as a minimum or simply remove the "illegal" tag, as long as someone is otherwise law-abiding.

b. the second is just? "we have this law [for a reason] and it needs to be honored (this is how I took your phrasing of the argument, by-the-way). The problem is that the "reason" is really business profitability. It has absolutely nothing to do with security (not really), it has nothing to do with job protection, even, because these people are supporting too many businesses that claim they "simply cannot pay better".
jbrettlip wrote:I think HISPANICS are readily accepted now, considering I grew up in NM and AZ and currently live in TX. It is the non citizens that face a back lash here. And I think it is rightfully so. Every person trying to immigrate to the US should disapprove of these "line jumpers".

And exactly how can you tell, just by looking, that someone is "illegal", as you say? Among other issues, illegal immigrants come not simply from Mexico, but from every nation on earth, including such "hispanic" nations as "ireland".

So, yes, you are a bit racist.


I am not racist. You obviously can't read. I treat everyone as though they are here LEGALLY, or are a CITIZEN. I never stated "I hate hispanics, they are all illegals. You however are a moron, and I can say that I am biased against morons.

Illegal immigrants are criminals BY DEFINITION. Look up "illegal" some time in the dictionary. I didn't say they were murderers or more apt to commit crimes. In fact I think the opposite, since they want to "fly under the radar". But by breaking the law, which is CURRENTLY the law, they ARE criminals. Pull your head out and think a little, Player.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:44 pm

jbrettlip wrote:
I am not racist. You obviously can't read. I treat everyone as though they are here LEGALLY, or are a CITIZEN. I never stated "I hate hispanics, they are all illegals.

You made it pretty clear you assume all illegals are hispanic, which is very far from the truth.
jbrettlip wrote:Illegal immigrants are criminals BY DEFINITION. Look up "illegal" some time in the dictionary. I didn't say they were murderers or more apt to commit crimes. In fact I think the opposite, since they want to "fly under the radar". But by breaking the law, which is CURRENTLY the law, they ARE criminals. Pull your head out and think a little, Player.


Pull my head and think? Since I addressed your point already and very accurately assessed your opinion, your reiteration was utterly unneeded.
I disagree with you, but I made pretty clear that I DID understand what you wrote. You, by contrast seem only able to insult and not even comprehend what you read.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby jbrettlip on Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:59 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:
I am not racist. You obviously can't read. I treat everyone as though they are here LEGALLY, or are a CITIZEN. I never stated "I hate hispanics, they are all illegals.

You made it pretty clear you assume all illegals are hispanic, which is very far from the truth.
jbrettlip wrote:Illegal immigrants are criminals BY DEFINITION. Look up "illegal" some time in the dictionary. I didn't say they were murderers or more apt to commit crimes. In fact I think the opposite, since they want to "fly under the radar". But by breaking the law, which is CURRENTLY the law, they ARE criminals. Pull your head out and think a little, Player.


Pull my head and think? Since I addressed your point already and very accurately assessed your opinion, your reiteration was utterly unneeded.
I disagree with you, but I made pretty clear that I DID understand what you wrote. You, by contrast seem only able to insult and not even comprehend what you read.

So calling someone a racist isn't an insult?? You make my head hurt with your stupidity on this. The majority of illegal aliens are hispanic. That is a fact. It doesn't in any way, shape or form make me a racist.
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