Entitlement Generation

[Baron Von PWN]

Just look at Athens. That's what happens when the populous becomes dependent on a nanny state.

Really? Seemed like the government dropped the ball on that one, not the people.

How so? By informing the people that they have run out of money and can no longer support them all?

By failing to collect the taxes due to them from Business and the citizenry. Essentially failure to enforce their laws.

[72o]

Just look at Athens. That's what happens when the populous becomes dependent on a nanny state.

Really? Seemed like the government dropped the ball on that one, not the people.

How so? By informing the people that they have run out of money and can no longer support them all?

By failing to collect the taxes due to them from Business and the citizenry. Essentially failure to enforce their laws.

Oh, ok, so the people are rioting because they weren't taxed enough, not because they're not getting government support. Got it.

[Baron Von PWN]

Just look at Athens. That's what happens when the populous becomes dependent on a nanny state.

Really? Seemed like the government dropped the ball on that one, not the people.

How so? By informing the people that they have run out of money and can no longer support them all?

By failing to collect the taxes due to them from Business and the citizenry. Essentially failure to enforce their laws.

Oh, ok, so the people are rioting because they weren't taxed enough, not because they're not getting government support. Got it.

You could put it that way. If the Greek government had actually collected the taxes they were due, they wouldn't be in this mess or Greek society would have realized the cost of the type government they want. Instead the Greek government turned a blind eye to tax evasion and pretended there was no debt problem until now.

[oddzy]

i don't know about the rest of you, but i think that - in some ways - the military is a social services program...especially now. it's an option people choose for many reasons, but one is that they can't get work or bennies in other ways.

[thegreekdog]

BBS, I think you can safely assume that most fiscal conservatives on this site want to cut the defense budget too. At least that's what I've garnered in the last year or so.

But you have to distinguish between "conservatives" and "fiscal conservatives."

The general term tends to include those who are social conservative and definitely people who are pro-military expansion and maintenance.

Even within the "budget cutting", there is a distinction in where folks want the cuts. Few people, even liberals, want soldiers sent out without the latest protective gear and armoured vehicles. But, we can all name a few projects that should never have been implemented.

I think military spending has a whole lot more to do with lobbying and spending more money on a project than is necessary. At least that's what my limited research has told me.

[Baron Von PWN]

BBS, I think you can safely assume that most fiscal conservatives on this site want to cut the defense budget too. At least that's what I've garnered in the last year or so.

But you have to distinguish between "conservatives" and "fiscal conservatives."

The general term tends to include those who are social conservative and definitely people who are pro-military expansion and maintenance.

Even within the "budget cutting", there is a distinction in where folks want the cuts. Few people, even liberals, want soldiers sent out without the latest protective gear and armoured vehicles. But, we can all name a few projects that should never have been implemented.

I think military spending has a whole lot more to do with lobbying and spending more money on a project than is necessary. At least that's what my limited research has told me.

It would be intersting to see how much of the pentagon's buget goese into maintaining all thos US basses all over the place.

[jonesthecurl]

Just look at Athens. That's what happens when the populous becomes dependent on a nanny state.

Really? Seemed like the government dropped the ball on that one, not the people.

How so? By informing the people that they have run out of money and can no longer support them all?

By failing to collect the taxes due to them from Business and the citizenry. Essentially failure to enforce their laws.

Oh, ok, so the people are rioting because they weren't taxed enough, not because they're not getting government support. Got it.

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.

ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

[jonesthecurl]

Also,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/f ... 509244.stm

[72o]

My point was that people are not upset because they didn't pay enough taxes, they're upset because those uncollected taxes weren't distributed to them in the form of entitlements.

[jonesthecurl]

Not arguing on either side, just adding some facts.
The riots are because of proposed "austerity" programs needed cos of the debts. The debts are so big cos of a culture of corruption. I don't know whether Greek government programs (as were) would be affordable if all the taxes were collected. Imagine in the US if the doctors paid no tax for example. What would that do to the IRS?
I love the idea that you are afraid of a tax inspection because of the size of the bribe you'd have to pay.

[Woodruff]

I believe there is a generation of people who believe they are Entitled to certain things. Do you agree? Do you think they are right? Do you think people are entitled to certain things? if so, what are they?

Yes, I agree there is a growing generation of people who seem to believe this.
They are idiots.
I hate to quote a Democrat but in this case ...
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

I believe in the exact inverse; we are not all entitled; we are all called to duty.

Certainly, you wouldn't mind compulsory military service, would you?

Compulsory CIVIC service (which may include the military, but could include many other things) is something that I personally believe would do a WORLD of good for this country. I do not, however, believe in compulsory military service alone.

[PLAYER57832]

Oh, ok, so the people are rioting because they weren't taxed enough, not because they're not getting government support. Got it.

People are rioting because the government is now having to cut back in extreme ways. Had they been collecting taxes all along, this would not be necessary.

This is the trouble with all these "no more taxes" arguments. Sure, few people voluntarily go out and pay additional taxes. (though some few actually argue we ought), but the fact is that we have to pay for what we get. The problem liberals have with too many conservatives (fiscal and otherwise), is that they don't look at what happens when services are cut. They ignore the real positive impact programs like foods stamps and so forth have on us all. (from direct benefit of not having kids who are malnurished to benefits to grocers selling food, etc.) its easy to point fingers, but tougher to say "hey, if I don't want so many people having to go on welfare, then maybe we ought to have a higher wage".

The REAL truth is that the best way to build an economy is not really from the top down, its from the bottom up. Those at the top invest money in ways that are remote or actualy negative to society and its growth. Middle income and poorer folks tend to spend the money, boosting the economy. When they don't spend, they save, which has a direct positive impact on future economics.

[Trephining]

I'm entitled to whatever I want, because I come from old money. In other words...



..f*ck you! Got mine!

In a society that values property rights, this is a logical, albeit exaggerated, statement.

[Trephining]

I believe there is a generation of people who believe they are Entitled to certain things.

Yes, CEO's and banks seem to think they are entitled to millions of dollars in bonuses no matter how much money they are losing everyone else.

This sounds like a corporate governance issue combined with an issue of government involvement, don't you think?

If you are a shareholder or a bondholder for a large company (including, but not limited to banks), then you should expect to have some kind of control over what the company does. If you dislike their compensation package, voice it at a shareholders' meeting or sell your stock.

If you are referring to bailouts, well then we have moved from corporate governance to government involvement. Eliminate all bailouts. Let the banks fail, let their creditors fail, etc.

[tzor]

I believe there is a generation of people who believe they are Entitled to certain things. Do you agree? Do you think they are right? Do you think people are entitled to certain things? if so, what are they?

Yes, I agree there is a growing generation of people who seem to believe this.
They are idiots.
I hate to quote a Democrat but in this case ...
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

I believe in the exact inverse; we are not all entitled; we are all called to duty.

Certainly, you wouldn't mind compulsory military service, would you?

That was not the duty I was talking about.

Military service is clearly one type of duty, it is not the only one. I could go all Paul on you and talk about "If the body were all eye, where would the hearing be?" There are many types of service and many duties.

[tzor]

By the way, for something completely different; many years ago I used to live on Long Island and work in Manhattan. Every time I saw my employee stub with all the taxes I saw the line for the “City Tax” and I turned red. I mean I was really angry. I looked at my federal taxes, then my state taxes and then my non resident city taxes and I was very upset (in that Bugs Bunny way when he found out the bounty on killing a rabbit).

They took out a couple of bucks. I mean what were they thinking? If you are going to tax me, then tax me like a man. It probably cost them more to process the paperwork than they were getting from me. Fortunately I did not really know who to complain to, but this was the only time I ever got angry because my taxes were too low!

[PLAYER57832]

I believe there is a generation of people who believe they are Entitled to certain things.

Yes, CEO's and banks seem to think they are entitled to millions of dollars in bonuses no matter how much money they are losing everyone else.

This sounds like a corporate governance issue combined with an issue of government involvement, don't you think?

No, it has to do with one's perception of what you think individuals are entitled to.

See, the real divide here is that conservatives like to pretend that hard work and skill = gauranteed higher income, with only a few exceptions. They therefore like to claim that people who are not working or who are working for low wages simply don't deserve better.

Liberals tend to say that life just, plain stinks and most people really do work hard. Or, do until they get burned out from beind screwed over so often. They also say that telling people that they just have to starve and live on the street because they don't have a job is not reasonable, harms all of us far more than giving those people a little bit of aid.

Now, my point was that group #1 often is the very group that looks away, puts forward all sorts of justifications for why profitable business A "needs" to have a tax break, "needs" to get all these benefits. EVEN THOUGH, the things offered those businesses far outstrip what is offered the poor AND that business does not usually reall offer all the benefits that are touted.
Walmart is a classic and yes, over used, example. But they come in and tell localities, "you want our store, we want XYZ". Locality thinks "hey Walmart..." and offers XYZ and sometimes even ABC in addition. Result? Walmart comes in, drives all those small local businesses out (so much more inefficient, don't you know...). Walmart not only is not paying so many local taxes, but they are driving out the former tax base. AND, the jobs they offer are often lower wage, dead-end jobs that force more people onto entitlement programs.

[Trephining]

Don't go setting up straw men like fiscal conservatives voicing support for tax credits/breaks for large corporations.

[DangerBoy]

The REAL truth is that the best way to build an economy is not really from the top down, its from the bottom up. Those at the top invest money in ways that are remote or actualy negative to society and its growth. Middle income and poorer folks tend to spend the money, boosting the economy. When they don't spend, they save, which has a direct positive impact on future economics.

This is just such ideological crap^

All you're doing is going about a different way of justifying income redistribution. Building up the economy from the bottom up? Give me a flippin' break!

[Trephining]

The best part of that is the last two sentences. Middle income and poorer folks spend which is good for the economy. Then, next sentence: they save when they don't spend, which is also good for the economy. Hahaha.

Guess what PLAYER....everybody does that!

If any person has any money, they have two options - spend it or save it. Get back to use next time you have some valuable insight!

[PLAYER57832]

Compulsory CIVIC service (which may include the military, but could include many other things) is something that I personally believe would do a WORLD of good for this country. I do not, however, believe in compulsory military service alone.

You know, I fully agree.

But to really work, it would have to be truly compulsory. And, I think it would have to be completely non-military (or all military, an option I would not favor). There is a lot of benefit to having one, hard, experience through which every American must pass.

[Woodruff]

Compulsory CIVIC service (which may include the military, but could include many other things) is something that I personally believe would do a WORLD of good for this country. I do not, however, believe in compulsory military service alone.

You know, I fully agree.

But to really work, it would have to be truly compulsory. And, I think it would have to be completely non-military (or all military, an option I would not favor). There is a lot of benefit to having one, hard, experience through which every American must pass.

Absolutely, EVERYONE (no exceptions) would need to be partaking. But I don't see any reason why it would need to be completely non-military or completely military.

[jonesthecurl]

You could go the Starship Troopers route, and you only get to vote if you'vve done your service. (In the book, service wasn't necessarily military).

[PLAYER57832]

Compulsory CIVIC service (which may include the military, but could include many other things) is something that I personally believe would do a WORLD of good for this country. I do not, however, believe in compulsory military service alone.

You know, I fully agree.

But to really work, it would have to be truly compulsory. And, I think it would have to be completely non-military (or all military, an option I would not favor). There is a lot of benefit to having one, hard, experience through which every American must pass.

Absolutely, EVERYONE (no exceptions) would need to be partaking. But I don't see any reason why it would need to be completely non-military or completely military.

Partly because the experiences would be so very different. Partly because there would be an instant divide in who selected which option. Also partly because if there was an option, the military would slowly, but surely encroach until only the "wash-outs" and complete "pacifists" would go to the military.

[Baron Von PWN]

My point was that people are not upset because they didn't pay enough taxes, they're upset because those uncollected taxes weren't distributed to them in the form of entitlements.

They are upset the "entitlements" are being cut back. The entitlements are being cut back because of lack of funds. The government lacks funds due to lack of tax enforcement. So realy this all amounts to government incompetence, if the government actualy collected taxes and enofrced the laws of the land, the Greeks likely wouldn't be in this mess.