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Logic dictates that there is a God!

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Does God exist?

 
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Postby Lionz on Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:31 pm

I'm not sure He's ever been afraid perhaps, but you might want to look around.

A scattering and confusion of tongues helped retard corrupt technological advancement for one maybe. What if humans had access to nuclear weaponry by the 1940s even after a human scattering and confusion of tongues?

Dinosaurs have roamed earth since the flood and I've referred to little to no preflood art depicting one maybe, but who said there is no antediluvian archaeological evidence? The great pyramid is a preflood structure maybe. There might be numbers in here I don't stand by, but...

Herodotus, visiting in the fifth century BC, reported that inscriptions of strange characters were to be found on the pyramid's casing stones.

In AD 1179 the Arab historian Abd el Latif recorded that these inscriptions were so numerous that they could have filled "more than ten thousand written pages."

William of Baldensal, a European visitor of the early fourteenth century, tells how the stones were covered with strange symbols arranged in careful rows.

Sadly, in 1356, following an earthquake that leveled Cairo, the Arabs robbed the pyramid of its beautiful casing of stones to rebuild mosques and fortresses in the city. As the stones were cut into smaller pieces and reshaped, all traces of the ancient inscriptions were removed from them. A great library of ageless wisdom was forever lost.

Still further evidence that the dynastic Egyptians did not construct the Great Pyramid may be found in sediments surrounding the base of the monument, in legends regarding watermarks on the stones halfway up its sides, and in salt incrustations found within. Silt sediments rising to fourteen feet around the base of the pyramid contain many seashells and fossils that have been radiocarbon-dated to be nearly twelve thousand years old.

These sediments could have been deposited in such great quantities only by major sea flooding, an event the dynastic Egyptians could never have recorded because they were not living in the area until eight thousand years after the flood. This evidence alone suggests that the three main Giza pyramids are at least twelve thousand years old.


In support of this ancient flood scenario, mysterious legends and records tell of watermarks that were clearly visible on the limestone casing stones of the Great Pyramid before those stones were removed by the Arabs. These watermarks were halfway up the sides of the pyramid, or about 400 feet above the present level of the Nile River.

Further, when the Great Pyramid was first opened, incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. While much of this salt is known to be natural exudation from the stones of the pyramid, chemical analysis has shown that some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. These salt incrustations, found at a height corresponding to the water level marks left on the exterior, are further evidence that at some time in the distant past the pyramid was submerged halfway up its height.

Note: Maybe at least font size is messed up there and I'm misquoting there for all I know. You might want to check this out... http://s8int.com/page13.html
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby natty dread on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:32 am

Lionz. I've been meaning to ask you.

Why do you put "maybe" in almost every sentence?
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby AAFitz on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:34 am

natty_dread wrote:Lionz. I've been meaning to ask you.

Why do you put "maybe" in almost every sentence?


perhaps to avoid answering difficult questions and only asking them and not committing and just baiting maybe?
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:36 am

jay_a2j wrote:
jrl332005 wrote: Each race evolved certain traits that helped them in their seperate environments. Humans that evolved in Africa evolved dark skin tones because of the extreme amounts of harsh sunlight that burns lighter skin tones more easily. While those of European decent have lighter skin because their ancenstors lived in areas that did not experience the same amount of harsh sunrays.




THIS is man's explanation. Scripture tells a different story. There was at one time only one race, one tongue ... until God "scattered" man all over the earth giving them different races and different tongues. Read up on the Tower of Babel. ;)

The Bible mentions tongues, as in languages, not skin color. Some people tie race to the original tribes, but that is also not truly specified by the Bible.
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Re:

Postby AAFitz on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:38 am

[quote="Lionz"]I'm not sure He's ever been afraid perhaps, but you might want to look around.

A scattering and confusion of tongues helped retard corrupt technological advancement for one maybe. What if humans had access to nuclear weaponry by the 1940s even after a human scattering and confusion of tongues?

you mean like antibiotics, agriculture, vaccines and other medical technologies that would have been held back and directly allowed the suffering of all mankind, maybe.

Yeah, everyone thank God and the church for the dark ages. Would have been a damn shame to avoid the plague, malaria and other pandemics.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby AAFitz on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:40 am

jay_a2j wrote:
jrl332005 wrote: Each race evolved certain traits that helped them in their seperate environments. Humans that evolved in Africa evolved dark skin tones because of the extreme amounts of harsh sunlight that burns lighter skin tones more easily. While those of European decent have lighter skin because their ancenstors lived in areas that did not experience the same amount of harsh sunrays.




THIS is man's explanation. Scripture tells a different story. There was at one time only one race, one tongue ... until God "scattered" man all over the earth giving them different races and different tongues. Read up on the Tower of Babel. ;)


I guess he kind of threw the whole "free will" rule out the window on that one. :lol:
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:49 am

AAFitz wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
jrl332005 wrote: Each race evolved certain traits that helped them in their seperate environments. Humans that evolved in Africa evolved dark skin tones because of the extreme amounts of harsh sunlight that burns lighter skin tones more easily. While those of European decent have lighter skin because their ancenstors lived in areas that did not experience the same amount of harsh sunrays.




THIS is man's explanation. Scripture tells a different story. There was at one time only one race, one tongue ... until God "scattered" man all over the earth giving them different races and different tongues. Read up on the Tower of Babel. ;)


I guess he kind of threw the whole "free will" rule out the window on that one. :lol:

Free will does not make us immune from consequence. We could have chosen to obey, we did not.

Ask any parent of a toddler about the power, and limits to free will ;)
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby AAFitz on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:54 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
jrl332005 wrote: Each race evolved certain traits that helped them in their seperate environments. Humans that evolved in Africa evolved dark skin tones because of the extreme amounts of harsh sunlight that burns lighter skin tones more easily. While those of European decent have lighter skin because their ancenstors lived in areas that did not experience the same amount of harsh sunrays.




THIS is man's explanation. Scripture tells a different story. There was at one time only one race, one tongue ... until God "scattered" man all over the earth giving them different races and different tongues. Read up on the Tower of Babel. ;)


I guess he kind of threw the whole "free will" rule out the window on that one. :lol:

Free will does not make us immune from consequence. We could have chosen to obey, we did not.

Ask any parent of a toddler about the power, and limits to free will ;)


Sorry, but supposedly taking all mankind and separating them and undoing work that they did and decisions they made is indeed removing free will from the equation.

Also, no one is suggesting that toddlers or all children should even have free will. However, if god changed the entire dynamic of humans and made them different and made them speak different languages, perhaps the single biggest factor that one can attribute to war and misunderstandings, its an absolute joke to say that man has free will, any more than a hand puppet does.

It also means we were not given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps we would have obeyed and undid the wrong perceived, but alas were not given the chance, and therefore, all free will is pointless. The game is in protest because of a possibly bad call by a referee. And there is absolutely no way to say for certain that this supposed act of splitting people up and making them speak different languages is not the core root of the problem for all war in the world today.

In any case, I think it was more one of the few explanations of why a God of pure Good would ever allow such differences among His supposed children.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:05 am

AAFitz wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
jrl332005 wrote: Each race evolved certain traits that helped them in their seperate environments. Humans that evolved in Africa evolved dark skin tones because of the extreme amounts of harsh sunlight that burns lighter skin tones more easily. While those of European decent have lighter skin because their ancenstors lived in areas that did not experience the same amount of harsh sunrays.




THIS is man's explanation. Scripture tells a different story. There was at one time only one race, one tongue ... until God "scattered" man all over the earth giving them different races and different tongues. Read up on the Tower of Babel. ;)


I guess he kind of threw the whole "free will" rule out the window on that one. :lol:

Free will does not make us immune from consequence. We could have chosen to obey, we did not.

Ask any parent of a toddler about the power, and limits to free will ;)


Sorry, but supposedly taking all mankind and separating them and undoing work that they did and decisions they made is indeed removing free will from the equation.

Also, no one is suggesting that toddlers or all children should even have free will. However, if god changed the entire dynamic of humans and made them different and made them speak different languages, perhaps the single biggest factor that one can attribute to war and misunderstandings, its an absolute joke to say that man has free will, any more than a hand puppet does.

It also means we were not given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps we would have obeyed and undid the wrong perceived, but alas were not given the chance, and therefore, all free will is pointless. The game is in protest because of a possibly bad call by a referee. And there is absolutely no way to say for certain that this supposed act of splitting people up and making them speak different languages is not the core root of the problem for all war in the world today.

In any case, I think it was more one of the few explanations of why a God of pure Good would ever allow such differences among His supposed children.


I think I need to wait until I have recovered from 6 days of little sleep to answer this. However, again, setting up rules doesn't eliminate free will. It sets up some "artificial" consequences. However, when it comes to God, is anything truly "artificial". After all, God created all.

And as per the Middle Ages, etc. ... the bottom line is that there is bad and there is worse. We focus on what we see, which is truly bad. However, God sees all. As Christians, we believe that any evil that occurs is still better than what could be. However, that is partially faith. (the "partially" bit is because I don't think it requires a huge imagination to always see something worse, in time).
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Re:

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:32 pm

Lionz wrote:I'm not sure He's ever been afraid perhaps, but you might want to look around.

A scattering and confusion of tongues helped retard corrupt technological advancement for one maybe. What if humans had access to nuclear weaponry by the 1940s even after a human scattering and confusion of tongues?

Dinosaurs have roamed earth since the flood and I've referred to little to no preflood art depicting one maybe, but who said there is no antediluvian archaeological evidence? The great pyramid is a preflood structure maybe. There might be numbers in here I don't stand by, but...
l


The source you asked me to look at.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:50 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
Maugena wrote:I'm sorry... did you happen to read the same things that I read? Or do you have selective reading so you can formulate an argument based off a fabricated premise?
I'll hold your hand for this one.
Player57832 wrote:The best we can come up with is to say that God and therefore the universe have always been here. This actually seems to be what sicence indicates.

At any rate, it does nothing to either prove or disprove God. However, I am always comforted when science, again, confirms what I know to be true from the Bible.

Player never claimed that "God" wasn't always there.



But she IS saying that scripture's account of the CREATION of the heavens and the Earth is wrong

No, I am saying that your interpretation of the scripture is wrong. There is absolutely nothing I believe that in any way disputes the Bible.

You, however, keep insisting on adding things that are not specified. It is much like back with Copernicus, when many within the church insisted that saying the Earth revolved around the sun would somehow be "against God".

Your claims that God creating us using a long process that ultimately means he created us from "dust", is limiting to God's powers. Why is it any less mysterious, an illustration of God's majesty that he would take this process, finally creating something akin to apes (we don't originate from apes, we have common ancestors, as we do with probably all life at some level) any less wonderous than saying he simply had to "snap his fingers and "voila" here we be.

Why is it mandatory that we are kin to apes somehow make us less like God? The part that makes us human IS apart. You are the one who wishes to tie scripture to something because you cannot look beyond the narrow.

Furthermore, upon what do you base your "facts" of the Bible? You base them upon what you were told, by a Pastor or similarly trained person. You deny, however, the teachings and trainings of thousands of other Bible scholars who insist that there is no dispute within the Bible of evolution.

Worse, you have not once ever shown that you even understand what evolution really says. You insist that things put forward in young earth creationist websites are the "true explanation of evolution".

I certainly don't go to the UC Berkeley's Geology department to understand Creationist views. I go to the Institute for Creation Research and similar young earth sites to see what young earth creationists believe and put forward as evidence.

jay_a2j wrote:and that her scientific view of "it always having existed" is correct. Quite the opposite in reality.

The reason I believe God always existed is because the Bible says so. I do find it interesting that some of the leading scientific theories, once again, concur with this, that there has "always been" some sort of universe. However, I am very far from saying this is in any way proven scientifically. It is an interesting idea to "ponder".

What I really and truly believe is that science will someday find "another" answer.. much like the ancients could not conceive of an earth that was 14 billion years old, could not concieve of Earth being a sphere "suspended" in space, etc... so, too, will future science provide an answer we just don't have the tools to understand. I believe whatever that answer is willl wind up being quite consistant with the Bible, but I fully admit it is just a belief. And, in this case, is perhaps better phrased as "an idea", rather than a "belief", per say, because I certainly don't hold to it as strongly as, say, my belief in God.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby jammyjames on Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:55 pm

well i wholely disagree with the fucking poll to start... thats biased as hell!

There is no alternative to say yes, god doesnt exist, the other one to beleiving in god, is just that you haven't seen him... put out a fair poll you stupid christian..
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:02 pm

tzor wrote: No they are not the same; let's compare them side by side.

The best we can come up with is to say that God and therefore the universe have always been here.
But she IS saying that scripture's account of the CREATION of the heavens and the Earth is wrong and that her scientific view of "it always having existed" is correct.

No, tzor, I am not saying the Bible is wrong. I am saying those who insist that Genesis days refer to a revolution of the Earth that did not even exist at the time is just wrong. As for the rest, I answered in my above post.

tzor wrote:
"The universe" is not the same as "the heavens and the earth." One can argue that the universe is "the heavens" but then again, even that too is abusing the system.

No, not by the definition I used above. Granted, there is talk of multiple universes, but we don't really have a word to encompass all of that.

The Bible says God was always here, so whether I can understand how that could be or not, I believe it to be true. Beyond that belief, I find it interesting that science is sometimes coming up with ideas that could actually explain the "how", namely that there is no true end or beginning. Even considering how all that could be is pretty mind-boggling, though. I cannot say I truly understand it. I just throw it out because too often the debate is "science says x, but the Bible says y". I say there is no conflict, only areas that we have yet to explain.

A lot of the supposed "conflicts" really get down to things that were just not understood, were pretty much impossible for anyone in ancient societies to understand. The Bible is not limited by God, but it can be sometimes limited by human's ability to understand things.
tzor wrote:
"In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters."

This is pretty much what most paleo-geologists assert.
tzor wrote:
(The abyss: the primordial ocean according to the ancient Semitic cosmogony. After God's creative activity, part of this vast body forms the salt-water seas (Genesis 1:9-10); part of it is the fresh water under the earth (Psalm 33:7; Ezekiel 31:4), which wells forth on the earth as springs and fountains (Genesis 7:11; 8:2; Proverb 3:20). Part of it, "the upper water" (Psalm 148:4; Daniel 3:60), is held up by the dome of the sky (Genesis 1:6-7), from which rain descends on the earth (Genesis 7:11; 2 Kings 7:2, 19; Psalm 104:13). A mighty wind: literally, "a wind of God," or "a spirit of God"; cf Genesis 8:1.) New American Bible
[/quote]
This, however is some people's idea of what these words mean, not the absolute, set and proven truth behind them.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby natty dread on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:04 pm

Granted, there is talk of multiple universes, but we don't really have a word to encompass all of that.


Multiverse?
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:09 pm

2dimes wrote:
Which one is further evolved from the monkeys, color-less skinned people or dark?

Yes, this type of question is one reason why Darwin withheld publication of "Descent of Man" for some time.

Such a question is really outside of evolution. We are, according to all data we have now, equally related. We sprung off from the line of descent that eventually lead to monkeys and other apes a very, very, very long time ago. We sprang off from the line that gave rise to Neanderthals more recently, but still a very, very, very long time ago.

The difference between white and black human beings is beyond "minute". It is, in fact, something we see, but really is no more a true genetic difference in the sense you are attempting to imply than having red hair, freckles, etc. Humanity is rife with variety. Some humans took a group of traits and artificially drew lines to call this group one "race" and another group a different "race" because it suited them to do so. When viewed purely objectively, there really is no clear delineation between white people, black people, etc. Instead, we see a transition of races.

At best, humans might be said to have been on the route to differentiation, perhaps somewhat akin to Darwin's Finches, but I say that only in the very loosest sense of analogy. Now, human beings all intermix even more than we have in the past. The entire idea of race has truly been disproven and is quickly becoming an absolute "mute" point as everyone intermarries, etc.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:11 pm

natty_dread wrote:
Granted, there is talk of multiple universes, but we don't really have a word to encompass all of that.


Multiverse?

Works for me! :lol: :lol:

But, sadly, I do believe I am a long way outside of the group that seems to set forth definitions.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:37 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:Which brings up something I have always wondered about. Since material of darker color absorbs more light and heat from the sun, and material of lighter color reflects more, why is darker skin better adapted to sunny climates and pale skin to cold ones?

For the record, this is not an attempt at disproving evolution. I don't believe in it for reasons stated in other threads, but my faith doesn't depend on that.

Good.
daddy1gringo wrote:If it ever were actually proven, I would just need to adjust my theology about the relationship of physical and spiritual death, and maybe a little about what is literal and what is figurative in the Bible. It wouldn't be the first time I have adjusted my theology.

In truth, while not all that makes up Evolutionary theory is proven, a lot is. More importantly, though, is that young earth creationism has been quite firmly disproven. Check out the evidence.. it does exist!
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Re:

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:51 pm

Lionz wrote:How about someone simply raise billions of generations of fruit flies and see if they ever get a non-fly? Here's an image showing ants in amber that can help you figure out what would happen maybe...

Image


How about you explain how this picture is even related to your question and then someone might, perhaps, maybe, answer.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby jay_a2j on Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:04 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:


The Bible mentions tongues, as in languages, not skin color.



Hmmm maybe God should have spelled it out for those like you who would come along and pick his word apart. Just wondering..... are there any Asian groups that originally spoke English? Any white groups that originally spoke Swahili? Any black groups that spoke German? On and on and on and on. It does not take an Einstein to connect the dots here.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby natty dread on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:01 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Granted, there is talk of multiple universes, but we don't really have a word to encompass all of that.


Multiverse?

Works for me! :lol: :lol:

But, sadly, I do believe I am a long way outside of the group that seems to set forth definitions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby Frigidus on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:13 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:


The Bible mentions tongues, as in languages, not skin color.



Hmmm maybe God should have spelled it out for those like you who would come along and pick his word apart. Just wondering..... are there any Asian groups that originally spoke English? Any white groups that originally spoke Swahili? Any black groups that spoke German? On and on and on and on. It does not take an Einstein to connect the dots here.


You're right, anyone with a brain would be able to see that there is a disconnect between the Old Testament and reality.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:36 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:


The Bible mentions tongues, as in languages, not skin color.



Hmmm maybe God should have spelled it out for those like you who would come along and pick his word apart. Just wondering..... are there any Asian groups that originally spoke English? Any white groups that originally spoke Swahili? Any black groups that spoke German? On and on and on and on. It does not take an Einstein to connect the dots here.


Jay, do you seriously think that English is as old as white people? Or that English is very distinct from German?
Swahili, incidentally appears to be pretty much an invented language, borrowing heavily from Arabic.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:39 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:


The Bible mentions tongues, as in languages, not skin color.



Hmmm maybe God should have spelled it out for those like you who would come along and pick his word apart.

So show me exactly where race is mentioned in the tale of Babel?

Because, the version I have speaks only of languages, not race.
jay_a2j wrote:Just wondering..... are there any Asian groups that originally spoke English? Any white groups that originally spoke Swahili? Any black groups that spoke German? On and on and on and on. It does not take an Einstein to connect the dots here.
[/quote]

The Bible says that after Babel we all spoke different languages. It says nothing of race. As to your question, it would be likely that people who could not talk together would not marry each other, might separate. That separation is what the Bible mentions. Going strictly by the Bible, it is quite possible that the division of race sprung up after the division of languages.

The scientific answer is other. Basically, that we can track the lineage of various languages. Many are related. I don't know the descent of Swahili, but I would warrent it is not as disparent as you seem to believe from English. Native American tongues, however are quite divergeant, which was greatly exemplified by the "code talkers" in WWII.

When I try to combine the two, and let me be clear, this part is only a guess on my part, I can see a lot of ways both things could be true. What I specifically think is most likely (only my opinion, here, again), is that first came the tower, then people divided, then languages further subdivided from that point.

At any rate, we KNOW that langauges change over time and quite frequently. The languages spoken at the time of the New Testament are not those spoken today. Languages have changed with frequency well within historic memory.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby AAFitz on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:50 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:


The Bible mentions tongues, as in languages, not skin color.



Hmmm maybe God should have spelled it out for those like you who would come along and pick his word apart. Just wondering..... are there any Asian groups that originally spoke English? Any white groups that originally spoke Swahili? Any black groups that spoke German? On and on and on and on. It does not take an Einstein to connect the dots here.


Oh, so now you are translating the bible to what you want it to mean. :lol:

Doesnt take einstein to see you simply translate the bible to what you want it to mean when convenient, and ignore it when convenient and add to it when convenient......

it further doesnt take einstein or even a 1st year psychology student to compare this to continuing a delusion.
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Re: Logic dictates that there is a God!

Postby AAFitz on Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:54 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:


The Bible mentions tongues, as in languages, not skin color.



Hmmm maybe God should have spelled it out for those like you who would come along and pick his word apart. Just wondering..... are there any Asian groups that originally spoke English? Any white groups that originally spoke Swahili? Any black groups that spoke German? On and on and on and on. It does not take an Einstein to connect the dots here.


Jay, do you seriously think that English is as old as white people? Or that English is very distinct from German?
Swahili, incidentally appears to be pretty much an invented language, borrowing heavily from Arabic.


Actually, and correct me if im wrong, but I think while english is distinct from German, I do believe german was its derivative for much of it, while french, spanish and italian etc were more derived from latin. Obviously there are massive differences and examples of cross pollination, but for the most part these groups fit.

Its clearly a case of a common language being changed over time and over regions which naturally happens, and not a case of someone snapping their fingers and them all not understanding each other one day.

Yet another case where obvious and documented evolution is just ignored for the snap fingers theory.
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