Peak Oil

[Night Strike]

Just think about it. What sane group of people would seriously think that there is anything OK or "just" about placing wells that had any potential at all to destroy so much of the Gulf? That situation happened because oil has become so important to our ecnomy, etc that so many people are just willing to ignore the impacts. Partly, it IS due to ignorance of environmental consequences, but another big part is the importance of oil.

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

So,... we are already there. Too many people just are not willing to admit it yet.

The businesses didn't think it was sane to put the wells that deep in the golf, but in order to keep doing business, they were forced to go out that deep because they were banned from drilling on land or shallow water.

Also, I think the idea of the Iraq war being about oil needs to be put to rest. If it was, we would have seen much cheaper oil prices as we would have control over many more oil supplies. Oil and gasoline prices have risen over where they were in 2003 prior to the war, so we obviously haven't gained anything from that oil if we did go in for it.

[Metsfanmax]

Just think about it. What sane group of people would seriously think that there is anything OK or "just" about placing wells that had any potential at all to destroy so much of the Gulf? That situation happened because oil has become so important to our ecnomy, etc that so many people are just willing to ignore the impacts. Partly, it IS due to ignorance of environmental consequences, but another big part is the importance of oil.

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

So,... we are already there. Too many people just are not willing to admit it yet.

The businesses didn't think it was sane to put the wells that deep in the golf, but in order to keep doing business, they were forced to go out that deep because they were banned from drilling on land or shallow water.

Also, I think the idea of the Iraq war being about oil needs to be put to rest. If it was, we would have seen much cheaper oil prices as we would have control over many more oil supplies. Oil and gasoline prices have risen over where they were in 2003 prior to the war, so we obviously haven't gained anything from that oil if we did go in for it.

...but since everyone knows that Bush was slightly inept, there's no logical contradiction in the idea that the war was started for oil, and was simply bungled to the point where it never got the results Bush wanted.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey, y'all remember when the world shifted from timber to coal for energy purposes?

Yeah, "Fear of a Peak Oil" is mostly BS. Thanks, guys. We'll shift to something else as oil gets too expensive.

That technology does not current exist, and there's no logical reason to assume that it'll magically appear as we run out of oil.

It's here in the form of hydrogen cells and alternate fuel sources like wind, solabear, water, and nuclear, but there's less incentive to heavily invest in these.

Look at China. They're most likely beating the US to the punch on the future switch from oil to alternate fuels. The switch is already in swing; you just have to open your eyes.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey, y'all remember when the world shifted from timber to coal for energy purposes?

Yeah, "Fear of a Peak Oil" is mostly BS. Thanks, guys. We'll shift to something else as oil gets too expensive.

That technology does not current exist, and there's no logical reason to assume that it'll magically appear as we run out of oil.

No doubt its a slightly naive or idealistic idea, but the mother of all invention is need....well, actually its actually laziness, but you get the idea.

Technology is also very much dependent upon need. Alternative energy sources really are not economically feasible at the moment. However, as the demand for them increases, as will the funding for them, and while no doubt this will be seamless, or perhaps not even chaotic, there is no doubt that when most agree its necessary, it will happen quicker than it seems possible.

The problem is, we live in the here and now, and we simply dont care about tomorrow...genetically speaking. However, when we dont have oil today, there is no doubt we will get damn fucking creative about it. Luckily, some are doing just that as we speak. Unfortunately, most of the money for such research is given to the very companies that would be replaced by the new technologies, in some sort of backwards logic that a 5 year old would not even understand.

not sure I got this.

My slightly naive or idealistic idea is exactly what you stated but in an extremely long version, so you're actually agreeing with my naive idealistic idea, or have I misread something here?

Also regarding your last paragraph, that's already happening. And companies that are small now but are properly investing could push aside the petroleum giants in the long-run, since those particular companies may not shift quickly enough to the alternative.

[Woodruff]

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

Which really is not a logical perspective. There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

...but since everyone knows that Bush was slightly inept, there's no logical contradiction in the idea that the war was started for oil, and was simply bungled to the point where it never got the results Bush wanted.

I don't at all believe Bush was inept. Misled by those he trusted, yes...inept, not at all. Don't let his speaking abilities fool you.

As to the start of the war, I am convinced it had far more to do with finishing Saddam for dad than anything else. It was a personal grudge.

[spurgistan]

Just think about it. What sane group of people would seriously think that there is anything OK or "just" about placing wells that had any potential at all to destroy so much of the Gulf? That situation happened because oil has become so important to our ecnomy, etc that so many people are just willing to ignore the impacts. Partly, it IS due to ignorance of environmental consequences, but another big part is the importance of oil.

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

So,... we are already there. Too many people just are not willing to admit it yet.

The businesses didn't think it was sane to put the wells that deep in the golf, but in order to keep doing business, they were forced to go out that deep because they were banned from drilling on land or shallow water.

Also, I think the idea of the Iraq war being about oil needs to be put to rest. If it was, we would have seen much cheaper oil prices as we would have control over many more oil supplies. Oil and gasoline prices have risen over where they were in 2003 prior to the war, so we obviously haven't gained anything from that oil if we did go in for it.

So, the possibility that Iraq maaaybe didn't go according to plan... you think about that at all? Also, it doesn't really matter the price, the important thing is that we have access to it, and China doesn't. Geopolitics, m'boy, geopolitics.

[Pedronicus]

Also, I think the idea of the Iraq war being about oil needs to be put to rest. If it was, we would have seen much cheaper oil prices as we would have control over many more oil supplies. Oil and gasoline prices have risen over where they were in 2003 prior to the war, so we obviously haven't gained anything from that oil if we did go in for it.

So you really think that OPEC is going to let all the wells produce a glut of oil, now you are in control of Iraq?
Yeah, right.
Also - Since Iraq was invaded, the amount of cars sold in India and China has sky rocketed as has their consumption of oil.

All of the outsourced jobs to enable Europeans and Americans to buy cheap computers, throw away mobile phones and the like has come back to bite us all in the arse. The world had a much better future whilst the Chinese went everywhere by push bike.

[Metsfanmax]

...but since everyone knows that Bush was slightly inept, there's no logical contradiction in the idea that the war was started for oil, and was simply bungled to the point where it never got the results Bush wanted.

I don't at all believe Bush was inept. Misled by those he trusted, yes...inept, not at all. Don't let his speaking abilities fool you.

As to the start of the war, I am convinced it had far more to do with finishing Saddam for dad than anything else. It was a personal grudge.

While I'll willingly admit that it's quite possible that Bush is a lot more intelligent than he came off as - and I'll concede that his speaking abilities don't relate much to his decision-making ability - I think there's enough evidence out there to indicate that Bush has basically a one-track mind. Once he decided that he wanted to invade Afghanistan in response to 9/11, there was no stopping him from doing all other sorts of things in the name of stopping the "Axis of Evil" or in the name of winning the "War on Terror." I believe that his inability to know when to stop is indicative of a larger problem on his part, which was to make the principled decision, and not the one which was in the name of maximizing US dominance and authority. If he didn't want to, that's one thing; but I believe he was incapable of seeing the alternative, and that's why he think he was slightly inept.

[PLAYER57832]

Just think about it. What sane group of people would seriously think that there is anything OK or "just" about placing wells that had any potential at all to destroy so much of the Gulf? That situation happened because oil has become so important to our ecnomy, etc that so many people are just willing to ignore the impacts. Partly, it IS due to ignorance of environmental consequences, but another big part is the importance of oil.

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

So,... we are already there. Too many people just are not willing to admit it yet.

The businesses didn't think it was sane to put the wells that deep in the golf, but in order to keep doing business, they were forced to go out that deep because they were banned from drilling on land or shallow water.

Oh please! Nice story after the fact. That's like saying that we should be glad the child molester only lives next to our house, not the school.

Granted, companies are in the business of making money, but the truth is also that if they did not think it was sane to drill in the Gulf, they would not have. If they truly thought they would have to be paying anything close to full damages (something they will not have to do, at all, despite all the claims to the contrary), they would not have seen it as a wise business move. If, in their hearts, they really thought this kind of damage would occur, had a high potential for occuring, I don't think they would have gone ahead. (businessmen might be blind at times, but they mostly are not ogres)

But, that doesn't mean BP is blameless (and other oil companies, I don't single out BP, they were just more unlucky). Were it not for the heavy influence/lobbying of the oil companies, the blindness of people regarding natural resource damages in general, then all of this would have gotten more due attention long BEFORE this disaster. The real truth is that if the Bush administration had paid attention to the data they had available about the Gulf, they would not have allowed even the initial explorations. The fact is that if the Bush administration had not seriously cut Gulf research, likely MORE negative data would have been collected making it oven more obvious that drilling more was unwise.

AND the truth is that the reason the Bush administration acted in that way was, in part because so much of the American population refuses to look past today into long-term consequences and particularly refuses to consider anything regarding natural resources as "real" and true, except when it comes to easy things like recycling and other "quick fixes". So, people tromp off to Walmart proud that they buy a product stamped "green", but meanwhile write their congresspeople or join protests insisting that the government be shrunk, taxes be cut, etc....

AND, as a result, we don't know enough to prevent disasters like BP, we naively allow these things to continue as if there is no damage possible, because it cannot be seen right now, today. Except, in this case, suddenly we ARE seeing it. Problem is, this is not the first time. And, I highly doubt it will be the last.

Also, I think the idea of the Iraq war being about oil needs to be put to rest. If it was, we would have seen much cheaper oil prices as we would have control over many more oil supplies. Oil and gasoline prices have risen over where they were in 2003 prior to the war, so we obviously haven't gained anything from that oil if we did go in for it.

I actually did not say I believed it was all about oil, or even much about oil. I said some people believe that was partially about oil. I believe it was likely a small part of the issue, but only a part. My point was that some people believe there was enough pressure now, then what happens when pressure increases?

Your reasonsing, though, just does not hold water. WE did not gain, but oil companies have been making record profits. If you think saying it is about oil means we, the consumers would see cheaper oil prices, then I am sorry, but you are just truly naive. Also, saying it is "about oil" doesn't mean it is only about oil. Other reasons can be seen by looking at all the government contracts (just "cooincidentally" with heavy involvement of Haliburton, etc.) , the expansion of governmental powers that come with any war, etc. (and yes, revenge is part of that).

[BigBallinStalin]

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

Which really is not a logical perspective. There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

...but since everyone knows that Bush was slightly inept, there's no logical contradiction in the idea that the war was started for oil, and was simply bungled to the point where it never got the results Bush wanted.

I don't at all believe Bush was inept. Misled by those he trusted, yes...inept, not at all. Don't let his speaking abilities fool you.

As to the start of the war, I am convinced it had far more to do with finishing Saddam for dad than anything else. It was a personal grudge.

It's part personal grudge and mostly creating a future Saudi Arabia where we sell them our construction projects after destroying their country, and Iraqi oil will cover that cost.

A select few companies get filthy rich, while the American public foot the bill.

[PLAYER57832]

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

Which really is not a logical perspective. There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

...but since everyone knows that Bush was slightly inept, there's no logical contradiction in the idea that the war was started for oil, and was simply bungled to the point where it never got the results Bush wanted.

I don't at all believe Bush was inept. Misled by those he trusted, yes...inept, not at all. Don't let his speaking abilities fool you.

As to the start of the war, I am convinced it had far more to do with finishing Saddam for dad than anything else. It was a personal grudge.

It's part personal grudge and mostly creating a future Saudi Arabia where we sell them our construction projects after destroying their country, and Iraqi oil will cover that cost.

A select few companies get filthy rich, while the American public foot the bill.

I really did not mean to be bogged down in whether the Gulf war was or was not due to oil. There is argument for both sides. However, the point is that if its even a possibility now, for the US, then it will be more than that should pressure increase.

So, war is just one of many possibilities that will become more pertinent as oil resources decrease.

[PLAYER57832]

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

Which really is not a logical perspective. There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

...but since everyone knows that Bush was slightly inept, there's no logical contradiction in the idea that the war was started for oil, and was simply bungled to the point where it never got the results Bush wanted.

I don't at all believe Bush was inept. Misled by those he trusted, yes...inept, not at all. Don't let his speaking abilities fool you.

As to the start of the war, I am convinced it had far more to do with finishing Saddam for dad than anything else. It was a personal grudge.

It's part personal grudge and mostly creating a future Saudi Arabia where we sell them our construction projects after destroying their country, and Iraqi oil will cover that cost.

A select few companies get filthy rich, while the American public foot the bill.

Saudi Arabia won't need us to cover their costs ... ever. They may be happy to take it, but they don't need our help.

[thegreekdog]

So, the possibility that Iraq maaaybe didn't go according to plan... you think about that at all? Also, it doesn't really matter the price, the important thing is that we have access to it, and China doesn't. Geopolitics, m'boy, geopolitics.

Here's some information on China:

http://www.iags.org/china.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8563985.stm

[PLAYER57832]

So, the possibility that Iraq maaaybe didn't go according to plan... you think about that at all? Also, it doesn't really matter the price, the important thing is that we have access to it, and China doesn't. Geopolitics, m'boy, geopolitics.

Here's some information on China:

http://www.iags.org/china.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8563985.stm

Yes, China is wanting oil, too.

Here is my point: http://www.ask.com/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China

China is definitely continuing to use, expanding use of traditional non-renewables, BUT, unlike us, they are investing very, very heavily in all sorts of alternative energy sources.

This is not even controversial, greekdog, you just have to pay attention. AND, it has far more implications than their demands for oil, etc.

[BigBallinStalin]

A lot of people attribute the Iraq war to oil, as well.

Which really is not a logical perspective. There is far too much evidence to the contrary.

...but since everyone knows that Bush was slightly inept, there's no logical contradiction in the idea that the war was started for oil, and was simply bungled to the point where it never got the results Bush wanted.

I don't at all believe Bush was inept. Misled by those he trusted, yes...inept, not at all. Don't let his speaking abilities fool you.

As to the start of the war, I am convinced it had far more to do with finishing Saddam for dad than anything else. It was a personal grudge.

It's part personal grudge and mostly creating a future Saudi Arabia where we sell them our construction projects after destroying their country, and Iraqi oil will cover that cost.

A select few companies get filthy rich, while the American public foot the bill.

Saudi Arabia won't need us to cover their costs ... ever. They may be happy to take it, but they don't need our help.

not sure how this is related, but it's wrong.

The US keeps the royalty in Saudi Arabia still in power. without us, they go.

[PLAYER57832]

It's part personal grudge and mostly creating a future Saudi Arabia where we sell them our construction projects after destroying their country, and Iraqi oil will cover that cost.

A select few companies get filthy rich, while the American public foot the bill.

Saudi Arabia won't need us to cover their costs ... ever. They may be happy to take it, but they don't need our help.

not sure how this is related, but it's wrong.

The US keeps the royalty in Saudi Arabia still in power. without us, they go.

You would have to explain that. But, its off topic and I don't think I have the energy right now. Maybe another time.