WTC and a Mosque

[BigBallinStalin]

So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?

[bradleybadly]

So, what's really the issue here?

If Muslims want to build a mosque near ground-zero and they're within their legal right (I assume), then what's really the problem here?

There is no problem. We should also build a statue of James Earl Ray close to the Lorraine Motel. In this country, freedom of expression should not be repressed no matter how insensitive it may seem.

[Metsfanmax]

Are you really so naive as to not understand what the problem is? Or are you just making a point by pretending to be ignorant?

[BigBallinStalin]

So based on the above to responses, it seems that people have difficulty in distinguishing between radical, fucked-in-the-head Muslim fundamentalists and just plain Muslims.

Thus, there is no problem with the mosque itself. The problem is with many Americans, and their current inability to understand what group is really responsible for the 9/11 attack. They fail at distinguishing an apple from an orange.

This is very similar to someone in the tribal region between Pakistan and Afghanistan having their family destroyed by some missile attack and then holding me directly responsible for this. I in no way have anything to do with CIA missile strikes in that tribal region, and neither are nearly all Muslims and even Islam responsible for the 9/11 attack.

In actuality, those who are against this seem as fanatical as those Islamic fundamentalists.

[Metsfanmax]

So based on the above to responses, it seems that people have difficulty in distinguishing between radical, fucked-in-the-head Muslim fundamentalists and just plain Muslims.

Thus, there is no problem with the mosque itself. The problem is with many Americans, and their current inability to understand what group is really responsible for the 9/11 attack. They fail at distinguishing an apple from an orange.

This is very similar to someone in the tribal region between Pakistan and Afghanistan having their family destroyed by some missile attack and then holding me directly responsible for this. I in no way have anything to do with CIA missile strikes in that tribal region, and neither are nearly all Muslims and even Islam responsible for the 9/11 attack.

In actuality, those who are against this seem as fanatical as those Islamic fundamentalists.

Yes. That's correct. You've discovered the problem.

Thread's done.

[2dimes]

Yup.

It's not just Americans that do this. It's human nature. Someone sees someone else doing something or they slight them somehow and everyone that looks like them or can be connected somehow are the same. Guilt by association. Get used to it.

[BigBallinStalin]

Oh, I'm used to it. I just bumped into someone the other day who RAGED all about it, and I just wanted to get a clearer understanding of what was going on by using other sources.

[Phatscotty]

So based on the above to responses, it seems that people have difficulty in distinguishing between radical, fucked-in-the-head Muslim fundamentalists and just plain Muslims.

Thus, there is no problem with the mosque itself. The problem is with many Americans, and their current inability to understand what group is really responsible for the 9/11 attack. They fail at distinguishing an apple from an orange.

This is very similar to someone in the tribal region between Pakistan and Afghanistan having their family destroyed by some missile attack and then holding me directly responsible for this. I in no way have anything to do with CIA missile strikes in that tribal region, and neither are nearly all Muslims and even Islam responsible for the 9/11 attack.

In actuality, those who are against this seem as fanatical as those Islamic fundamentalists.

I think the Imam who wants this mosque has made some very questionable statements in the past, and even a few more that are outright inciting violence against America. He also thinks Hamas is a freedom fighting force.

Dare I wonder, if he were really a tolerant believer, none of this would probably be an issue, and most certainly less of an issue given that the opposers would have fewer reason to suspect him of malicious intentions and of course we would just start making crap up at that point.



Also,this Imam has chosen to use the name "Cordoba" which is highly flammatory for obvious reasons.

It is akin to Christians building a church across from the spot where we bombed and killed Osama Bin Laden. Oh wait, if someone tried to build a church there (anywhere) in the Muslim world, the people would be killed on the spot, dragged through the streets, beheaded for fun, and any work on the church that was completed would immediately be burnt to the ground.

So....yeah...I really dont see how that could be a dig deal

[2dimes]

Just for giggles, do you have recordings or something of the Imam making those statements? It's just really easy to run on hearsay, no?

[Phatscotty]

Just for giggles, do you have recordings or something of the Imam making those statements? It's just really easy to run on hearsay, no?

UM. YAH!!!!

Are you telling me you have an opinion about this, knowing nothing about what this guy has said in the past?

[BigBallinStalin]

Just for giggles, do you have recordings or something of the Imam making those statements? It's just really easy to run on hearsay, no?

UM. YAH!!!!

Are you telling me you have an opinion about this, knowing nothing about what this guy has said in the past?

I'd like some links to click on to show me that what you said earlier about this imam is correct.

[Phatscotty]

Just for giggles, do you have recordings or something of the Imam making those statements? It's just really easy to run on hearsay, no?

UM. YAH!!!!

Are you telling me you have an opinion about this, knowing nothing about what this guy has said in the past?

I'd like some links to click on to show me that what you said earlier about this imam is correct.

just go to wikki, cuz you will anyways. Bottom line, I saw the tapes, but I guess if I can't find them on the internet in a form to share, he didn't say them. What he said was, to the likes of "America did not deserve 9-11, BUT, America has killed innocent people in Hiroshima and ...(somehwere else)"

I saw the video of him, speaking to Hamas, and Islamic victory. I guess you could define that any way you want, but it was to Hamas, ok?

Sure, those are going to ne verification, and I hope I made it clear I did not quote him entirely correctly, but I remember the gist I felt the first time I heard it, and the second time, and it has not changed the thrid time.

Can we also get into why this guy names his shit "Cordoba"? Gabon already did a good thread on this, but it has pertinence here since you created a new one. I can only assume you want to put your spin on it. Hey, if you got a great question or point, come with it. I have said many times my position on this. I think it's a bad idea, because humans, in their nature, are going to cause problems and violence over this. I dont even care who is going to start it or who is going to finish it, I care that it is preventable. They guy could practice his religion in any of over 100 nearby mosques. There is no chance in hell an argument that he can not practice his faith here is going to fly, or an argument that the USA is preventing him from doing so. You can build a mosque. You cannot build it wherever you want. You cant build it in front of the white house, the white house is going to have problems with that. you cant build it in front of ground zero, because 9-11 victims and their families are going to have problems with that.

[porkenbeans]

It is NOT a Mosque.
It is to be a Community Center.
We are not at war with Muslim Community Centers.
Or even Muslims, for that matter.
Are we really going to tell Religious organizations, where they can, and can not, put their buildings in The United States of America ?

Those Assholes that committed mass murder on civilians, on 911, murdered Muslims, Christians, Jews, and other people, from many ethnic and religious backgrounds.
Their main goal was to help start a war between Islam and the West.

You fucking idiots are playing right in to their hands by adopting such prejudice attitudes towards all Muslims.

You fucking retards are the real traders. You are NOT the Patriotic defenders of Freedom that you espouse to be. You have no more brains than the 911 suicide automatons, that were brainwashed to believe that they were doing the work of GOD.

[2dimes]

Just for giggles, do you have recordings or something of the Imam making those statements? It's just really easy to run on hearsay, no?

UM. YAH!!!!

Are you telling me you have an opinion about this, knowing nothing about what this guy has said in the past?

Somewhat but I don't consider my opinion to have any merit if that's what you're wondering? I was not challanging your opinion. I was wondering if you formed it on something you have first hand knowledge of or not. I don't need you to prove you heard/seen the guy make a particular statement. I trust you did. Thank you for answering the question.

I'm considering changing my opinion based on this. To be honest though it's hearsay that I'm running on here.

[Phatscotty]

It is NOT a Mosque.
It is to be a Community Center.
We are not at war with Muslim Community Centers.
Or even Muslims, for that matter.
Are we really going to tell Religious organizations, where they can, and can not, put their buildings in The United States of America ?

Those Assholes that committed mass murder on civilians, on 911, murdered Muslims, Christians, Jews, and other people, from many ethnic and religious backgrounds.
Their main goal was to help start a war between Islam and the West.

You fucking idiots are playing right in to their hands by adopting such prejudice attitudes towards all Muslims.

You fucking retards are the real traders. You are NOT the Patriotic defenders of Freedom that you espouse to be. You have no more brains than the 911 suicide automatons, that were brainwashed to believe that they were doing the work of GOD.

If I may quote BBS....

In actuality, those who are against this seem as fanatical as those Islamic fundamentalists.

Pork,I agree you are playing right into their hands. The muslims are going forgive Christians for the Crusades around the same time descendants of slaves will forgive America for Slavery... Not gonna happen



I see you also exceptionally miss the simple point this is not about Islam, or a Mosque, but a person I already know you have 0 knowledge about. I am not your fucking mentor ok? Yes, it is a community center, WITH A MOSQUE you big dummy! (I am quite sure Allah is ok with having a small mosque in a huge community center) I only help you out because it disgusts me to witness such stupidity.

Help yourself to a history book you fouled mouth brat!

Also, none of your hysterical rant connects with anything the conversation is currently about. We are approximately 6 weeks ahead of your elementary introduction on this issue.

How you do feel about this guys refusal to condemn Hamas? What does that tell you about his version of Islam?
Why does he name is Cordoba? What does that tell you about his version of Islam?

[Baron Von PWN]

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

I think the controversial thing he said you are referring to is that he said something allong the lines of "9/11 was a terrible crime, however i think it was a crime the USA was partly responsible for". I don't think that is a particularly radical thing to say. Everything I've come across about things this guy have said make him sound like a very moderate guy.

You bring up no churches being allowed to be built in the middle east. So what? the USA is supposed to be better than that. The USA is about religious freedom, the shining light on the hill. Do you want to put the light out cause others are?

so far this whole thing has felt extremely reactionary to me.

[Phatscotty]

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

I think the controversial thing he said you are referring to is that he said something allong the lines of "9/11 was a terrible crime, however i think it was a crime the USA was partly responsible for". I don't think that is a particularly radical thing to say. Everything I've come across about things this guy have said make him sound like a very moderate guy.

You bring up no churches being allowed to be built in the middle east. So what? the USA is supposed to be better than that. The USA is about religious freedom, the shining light on the hill. Do you want to put the light out cause others are?

so far this whole thing has felt extremely reactionary to me.

it certainly is an insensitive thing to say. I am certain that is how the 9-11 families feel. Their loved ones who died just going to work that morning were not responsible.

I also saw a lot of impressive things on that guy. Does that include Hamas support?

The USA is better than that.

Where is religious freedom being denied here?

[Baron Von PWN]

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

I think the controversial thing he said you are referring to is that he said something allong the lines of "9/11 was a terrible crime, however i think it was a crime the USA was partly responsible for". I don't think that is a particularly radical thing to say. Everything I've come across about things this guy have said make him sound like a very moderate guy.

You bring up no churches being allowed to be built in the middle east. So what? the USA is supposed to be better than that. The USA is about religious freedom, the shining light on the hill. Do you want to put the light out cause others are?

so far this whole thing has felt extremely reactionary to me.

it certainly is an insensitive thing to say. I am certain that is how the 9-11 families feel.

I also saw a lot of impressive things on that guy. Does that include Hamas support?

The USA is better than that.

Where is religious freedom being denied here?

I've heard and read allot of people wanting to shut this community center/mosque down. To me that sounds like an affront to freedom of religion.

You know some might agree, there are allot of 9/11 families I'm sure there is a wide range of opinion. Maybe if the US hadn't funded the afghans the Soviets would have killed Osama's ass, maybe if the US didn't piss off after the war Osama wouldn't see the need for 9/11.
The USA has been involved in the mid east for quite a while to say that involvement has been perfectly benign would be somewhat naive don't you think? Is it "insensitive" to say US involvement in the middle east is partly responsible for 9/11 maybe, but I think its true. Understanding why 9/11 happened can help avoid simmilar attrocities in the future, just saying "They're crazy!" is really easy but it doesn't really answer anything.

[Phatscotty]

Let me ask you guys this question.

pretend for 1 minute that you hate America. America IS the great Satan. America Deserved 9-11. Seeing 9-11 on TV made you happy, and you may have even been one of the people in a Muslim Country jumping up and down in the streets and throwing candy. Pretend you are that person for one minute.

Would you be interested in visiting this Mosque right by ground zero? When you were there, would you feel a sense of pride in your religion and it's actions? Would you view the Mosque building as a victory?

[Phatscotty]

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

I think the controversial thing he said you are referring to is that he said something allong the lines of "9/11 was a terrible crime, however i think it was a crime the USA was partly responsible for". I don't think that is a particularly radical thing to say. Everything I've come across about things this guy have said make him sound like a very moderate guy.

You bring up no churches being allowed to be built in the middle east. So what? the USA is supposed to be better than that. The USA is about religious freedom, the shining light on the hill. Do you want to put the light out cause others are?

so far this whole thing has felt extremely reactionary to me.

it certainly is an insensitive thing to say. I am certain that is how the 9-11 families feel.

I also saw a lot of impressive things on that guy. Does that include Hamas support?

The USA is better than that.

Where is religious freedom being denied here?

I've heard and read allot of people wanting to shut this community center/mosque down. To me that sounds like an affront to freedom of religion.

You know some might agree, there are allot of 9/11 families I'm sure there is a wide range of opinion. Maybe if the US hadn't funded the afghans the Soviets would have killed Osama's ass, maybe if the US didn't piss off after the war Osama wouldn't see the need for 9/11.
The USA has been involved in the mid east for quite a while to say that involvement has been perfectly benign would be somewhat naive don't you think? Is it "insensitive" to say US involvement in the middle east is partly responsible for 9/11 maybe, but I think its true. Understanding why 9/11 happened can help avoid simmilar attrocities in the future, just saying "They're crazy!" is really easy but it doesn't really answer anything.

F, here we go again!

The mosque is not opened, so nobody is shutting it down....

There is most definitely NOT a wide range of opinions of 9-11 families. Some differ, slightly to somewhat.

Maybe don't cut it here

Yes, the USA military, yes yes yes. Civilians? no no no

is it insensitive to say? if you want to build a mosque at ground zero....f*ck YES!

Again, where is this man being denied his religious freedom?

[Baron Von PWN]

Let me ask you guys this question.

pretend for 1 minute that you hate America. America IS the great Satan. America Deserved 9-11. Seeing 9-11 on TV made you happy, and you may have even been one of the people in a Muslim Country jumping up and down in the streets and throwing candy. Pretend you are that person for one minute.

Would you be interested in visiting this Mosque right by ground zero? When you were there, would you feel a sense of pride in your religion and it's actions? Would you view the Mosque building as a victory?

Maybe they would. Once they heard what the iman had to say though they would probably change their mind.

[Phatscotty]

Let me ask you guys this question.

pretend for 1 minute that you hate America. America IS the great Satan. America Deserved 9-11. Seeing 9-11 on TV made you happy, and you may have even been one of the people in a Muslim Country jumping up and down in the streets and throwing candy. Pretend you are that person for one minute.

Would you be interested in visiting this Mosque right by ground zero? When you were there, would you feel a sense of pride in your religion and it's actions? Would you view the Mosque building as a victory?

Maybe they would. Once they heard what the iman had to say though they would probably change their mind.

I wonder if, the Imam is completely immune to the tactic of campaigning? Does anyone ever say they are going to do one thing, and then do the other? Why does everyone trust him? wtf? He supports Hamas!

LINK TO TERRORISM AND TERRORISTS.

no dice

[porkenbeans]

As usual, fatass Can not see beyond his pea-brain ideas.

Pork,I agree you are playing right into their hands. The muslims are going forgive Christians for the Crusades around the same time Black people will forgive America for Slavery... Not gonna happen

I do not give a rats ass if Muslims forgive or not. My point that goes over your head, is that people for the most part are stupid, mindless fucktards, that are easily lead. Just as the suicide jehadists are brainwashed, so to are dumb-asses like you. The average intelligence of humans is very low. This fact has been exploited by many demigods in our history. From Hitler, to Jim Jones, to Koresh, to Limbaugh. These types know very well the herd mentality that lives in the roots of man.

Most of us are happy just to follow the ass in front of us to where it leads. It is not a difficult thing to make some noise, and create a stampede. This is the Mob Mentality, or otherwise known as, Group Think. This Group Think can be manipulated easy enough. All you need do, is know the right buttons to push.

Osama Bin Ladin is just another Demigod that is smart enough to know these buttons. He knows that his counterparts will whip up our own cattle into a stampede. He will succeed if we let ourselves be reduced to a mob that craves revenge.

I am sorry that I sometimes get so perturbed with people like you, and resort to colorful or foul language, but It just upsets me so, to realize that I belong to the same species, as this herd of mindless cattle, that I see around me.

[Metsfanmax]

As usual, fatass Can not see beyond his pea-brain ideas.

Pork,I agree you are playing right into their hands. The muslims are going forgive Christians for the Crusades around the same time Black people will forgive America for Slavery... Not gonna happen

I do not give a rats ass if Muslims forgive or not. My point that goes over your head, is that people for the most part are stupid, mindless fucktards, that are easily lead. Just as the suicide jehadists are brainwashed, so to are dumb-asses like you. The average intelligence of humans is very low. This fact has been exploited by many demigods in our history. From Hitler, to Jim Jones, to Koresh, to Limbaugh. These types know very well the herd mentality that lives in the roots of man.

Most of us are happy just to follow the ass in front of us to where it leads. It is not a difficult thing to make some noise, and create a stampede. This is the Mob Mentality, or otherwise known as, Group Think. This Group Think can be manipulated easy enough. All you need do, is know the right buttons to push.

Osama Bin Ladin is just another Demigod that is smart enough to know these buttons. He knows that his counterparts will whip up our own cattle into a stampede. He will succeed if we let ourselves be reduced to a mob that craves revenge.

I am sorry that I sometimes get so perturbed with people like you, and resort to colorful or foul language, but It just upsets me so, to realize that I belong to the same species, as this herd of mindless cattle, that I see around me.

http://xkcd.com/610/

[Baron Von PWN]

Scotty its called cordoba house because Cordoba was a tolerant society in a time of intolerance. Jews, Christians and muslims coexisted peacefully and were free to worship however they chose in Cordoba, this is why they chose to call it Cordoba house.

I think the controversial thing he said you are referring to is that he said something allong the lines of "9/11 was a terrible crime, however i think it was a crime the USA was partly responsible for". I don't think that is a particularly radical thing to say. Everything I've come across about things this guy have said make him sound like a very moderate guy.

You bring up no churches being allowed to be built in the middle east. So what? the USA is supposed to be better than that. The USA is about religious freedom, the shining light on the hill. Do you want to put the light out cause others are?

so far this whole thing has felt extremely reactionary to me.

it certainly is an insensitive thing to say. I am certain that is how the 9-11 families feel.

I also saw a lot of impressive things on that guy. Does that include Hamas support?

The USA is better than that.

Where is religious freedom being denied here?

I've heard and read allot of people wanting to shut this community center/mosque down. To me that sounds like an affront to freedom of religion.

You know some might agree, there are allot of 9/11 families I'm sure there is a wide range of opinion. Maybe if the US hadn't funded the afghans the Soviets would have killed Osama's ass, maybe if the US didn't piss off after the war Osama wouldn't see the need for 9/11.
The USA has been involved in the mid east for quite a while to say that involvement has been perfectly benign would be somewhat naive don't you think? Is it "insensitive" to say US involvement in the middle east is partly responsible for 9/11 maybe, but I think its true. Understanding why 9/11 happened can help avoid simmilar attrocities in the future, just saying "They're crazy!" is really easy but it doesn't really answer anything.

F, here we go again!

The mosque is not opened, so nobody is shutting it down....

There is most definitely NOT a wide range of opinions of 9-11 families. Some differ, slightly to somewhat.

Maybe don't cut it here

Yes, the USA military, yes yes yes. Civilians? no no no

is it insensitive to say? if you want to build a mosque at ground zero....f*ck YES!

Again, where is this man being denied his religious freedom?

Like you said he hasn't yet. If they deny him the right to build it than I would say they are being infringed.

I certainly agree civilians didn't deserve to die, I don't even think any US servicemen deserve to die for the decisions of US governments. However I can see why the terrorists might have launched the attack, the US government represents its people so as is often the case the people get the shit. All I think the Imam was saying is that US government involvement in the middle east played a role in setting of the attack.

9/11 families do have varried opinions, "" Kelly is Catholic, but on Saturday she called the mosque ""in many ways ... a fitting tribute.... This is the voice of Islam that I believe needs a wider audience. This is what moderate Islam is all about,'' she said." and another ""a gross lack of sensitivity to the 9/11 families and to the people who were lost.'' "" source:http://www.app.com/article/20100814/NEWS06/100814068/9-11-family-members-divided-over-mosque-near-WTC.

I put this in google "9/11 families opinion on WTC mosque" and you find examples of 9/11 families opposed and supporting it.